Star Wars VII - Trailer Discussion

[Eternal_Freedom]

Of course, we are assuming that the Imperials wanted to get the plans back rather than simply eliminate them. As SCrawl said, if they know they aren't on the ship or were transmitted away and everything that left the ship was blasted, they know the plans are gone. The only reason they didn't just vaporise the corvette was to capture prisoners for interrogation.

[Anacronian]

this of course assumes that the captain of the ISD in question knew the details of the operation, for all we know his orders were to capture to the Corellian Corvette with this registry and make sure that none of the rebel agents onboard escape or make transmit anything, with everything else being on a "need to know basis" (which dispite how often it's missused in media is perfectly valid way to distribute information in military ops).

Well the Second Officer does talk to Vader about the plans right in front of somebody with the rank of Commander so i would guess the Captain as well would have some knowlegde about them.

[Patroklos]

That could have been the intelligence officer, or Vader's personnal bodyguard commander or any other number of positions separate from the ship's chain of command. COs in the real world might get read in on a certain operations they are a part of but even then they get the "need to know" parts, not the who thing.

[Anacronian]

That could have been the intelligence officer, or Vader's personnal bodyguard commander or any other number of positions separate from the ship's chain of command. COs in the real world might get read in on a certain operations they are a part of but even then they get the "need to know" parts, not the who thing.

A Stormtrooper mentions the DS plans to Darth Vader while vader chokes the rebel officer in front of everybody .. i really don't think the Devastators mission was a secret to it's crew.

[Lord Revan]

this of course assumes that the captain of the ISD in question knew the details of the operation, for all we know his orders were to capture to the Corellian Corvette with this registry and make sure that none of the rebel agents onboard escape or make transmit anything, with everything else being on a "need to know basis" (which dispite how often it's missused in media is perfectly valid way to distribute information in military ops).

Well the Second Officer does talk to Vader about the plans right in front of somebody with the rank of Commander so i would guess the Captain as well would have some knowlegde about them.

all the imperial personel onboard the Tantive IV wore black uniforms, while all navy personel we clearly saw wore different color uniform (kind of greenish-grey that most imperials wear), suggesting that the officers on board the Tantive IV were not part of the navy (and thus not part of the chain of command for the star destroyer).

A Stormtrooper mentions the DS plans to Darth Vader while vader chokes the rebel officer in front of everybody .. i really don't think the Devastators mission was a secret to it's crew.

it's called "need to know" not "lets withhold vital mission information for no good reason", the stormtroopers needed to know what to look for as it was their mission to recover the plans, the captain of the ship tasked with disabling the corvette doesn't need to know about the plans

When I was doing my military service, I served as a runner for Regimental HQ, during that I either overheard or saw things that were classified and I was under orders to not reveal those things to anyone, so I have hard time beliving that stormtroopers would reveal details of secret mission to anyone especially when Darth Vader is present.

also the captain of the Devestator only need to know that the Tantive IV is carrying rebel agents and that repesentive of the Emperor wants that ship captured intact and that all transmissions prevented, he doesn't need to know why.

[Irbis]

I don't think it was linked before, but it raises some good points:

[Borgholio]

I don't think it was linked before, but it raises some good points:

Yeah, big deal about the lightsaber hilt, Han is old, and Palpatine's first name sucks.

[Irbis]

Han is old

Old like old, but meh, if he is not in the trailer it might mean some heavy CGI massaging of the main 3 to make them in any way presentable. And yes, isn't it the first SW trailer ever without space?

[LaCroix]

Maybe I just read too much into it, but it always came off in my mind that they had blown up escape pods where they DID detect life forms. The plans could easily have been hidden in one of those as well.

Well, no wonder. If there are life forms on board, these lifeforms could scamper away with the plans after landing. Better risk destroying the plans than losing them.

Or - even worse - could tell people about this illegal boarding of a diplomatic vessel. (Later moot because of the dissolving of the senate)

[Adam Reynolds]

And yes, isn't it the first SW trailer ever without space?

That is actually a good point, one I didn't notice. He is also right about the feeling most had about the trailer from TPM, which in many cases led to heightened expectations and then the corresponding disappointment. Though I've always thought that the key problem was that the films failed to mature with those who saw the originals as children. I personally consider TPM to be fine, partially because I first saw it when I was nine myself. Thus the nostalgia element is there for me with that film as much as it is for the originals. I was actually the perfect age for the prequels as they somewhat matured as I did. Though I would still obviously agree that the originals are far better films.

As for the big open question, that of script quality, the fact that Lawrence Kasdan is involved is quite hopeful. He was after all a key writer in what is generally regarded as the best film in the series. One can only hope that the dialog will be improved from the prequels, what I consider their largest flaw. While in the original films there were countless quotable one liners that worked extremely well, I can't name one from the prequels. Going from "I'd just as soon kiss a Wookie"and "Someday you're going to be wrong, and I just hope I'm going to see it" to "I don't like sand" is rather jarring.

Another element that will likely cause these films to be better regarded than the prequels is the fact that this is likely a more mature era for the galaxy than that of "before the dark times." This alone would likely be seen as an improvement by most as dark settings are usually seen as more serious and thus better. See the Dark Knight versus Iron Man(though I personally vastly preferred Iron Man).

[Lord Revan]

the thing we need to remember about the PT is that they weren't bad per se, not like people seem to imply, but they weren't the films fans were expecting but then no movie had a realistic chance of living up to the hype there so that caused alot of the resentment towards the Prequels.

Now this new trilogy has a possibility to avoid that as long as they don't build up the hype too much, if they do so they're doomed to fail.

[ray245]

the thing we need to remember about the PT is that they weren't bad per se, not like people seem to imply, but they weren't the films fans were expecting but then no movie had a realistic chance of living up to the hype there so that caused alot of the resentment towards the Prequels.

Now this new trilogy has a possibility to avoid that as long as they don't build up the hype too much, if they do so they're doomed to fail.

The fans are already hyping this up as a movie that can't fail because Lucas is no longer the director, without considering whether Abrams is that good of a director in the first place. Abrams' Star Trek films were plagued with a number of issues as well, so I think there will be a sizeable section of fans that will be let down with the movie.

[Irbis]

the thing we need to remember about the PT is that they weren't bad per se, not like people seem to imply, but they weren't the films fans were expecting but then no movie had a realistic chance of living up to the hype there so that caused alot of the resentment towards the Prequels.

The problem is, Lucas not only didn't tried, he actually went out of his way to make the problem worse. I remember reading interview with him where he actually went and said something amounting to "fuck the grown up idiots who saw my movies as kids and demand I make a movie for them, prequels are for kids only and I regret I couldn't kiddify TOT at the time too due to being too weak". You need some serious disconnection to reality to treat people who made you rich and famous that way, thankfully Disney has less ego and warped world view, more appreciation of money coming from customer satisfaction.

[ray245]

the thing we need to remember about the PT is that they weren't bad per se, not like people seem to imply, but they weren't the films fans were expecting but then no movie had a realistic chance of living up to the hype there so that caused alot of the resentment towards the Prequels.

The problem is, Lucas not only didn't tried, he actually went out of his way to make the problem worse. I remember reading interview with him where he actually went and said something amounting to "fuck the grown up idiots who saw my movies as kids and demand I make a movie for them, prequels are for kids only and I regret I couldn't kiddify TOT at the time too due to being too weak". You need some serious disconnection to reality to treat people who made you rich and famous that way, thankfully Disney has less ego and warped world view, more appreciation of money coming from customer satisfaction.

Is Lucas responding to the people who claim that Lucas ruined their childhood? If so, then kudos to him for saying he isn't going to cater to them. Star Wars is a franchise that also made an active attempt to cater to 5-6 years old, not just 10-12 year old. So it is bound to disappoint fans who wish to make the series more mature and to cater to their taste. If Lucas made a movie to please the old fans, then chances are the prequels is going to end up being less accessible to very young kids.

[Adam Reynolds]

Is Lucas responding to the people who claim that Lucas ruined their childhood? If so, then kudos to him for saying he isn't going to cater to them. Star Wars is a franchise that also made an active attempt to cater to 5-6 years old, not just 10-12 year old. So it is bound to disappoint fans who wish to make the series more mature and to cater to their taste. If Lucas made a movie to please the old fans, then chances are the prequels is going to end up being less accessible to very young kids.

I feel like most of the backlash is largely thanks to young Anakin. Were he an older teenager, analogous to Luke in ANH, TPM would have felt far more mature, even with slapstick Jar Jar. This would have also given a stronger sense of drama to the finale with Anakin playing a critical role in the initial assault and probably saving Padme intentionally rather than accidentally. He could have also destroyed the control ship intentionally but still mostly though luck/the Force. But alas we are left with the version starring a nine year old.

As a side note, it is somewhat funny that people raved about how awesome Gollum was in Lord of the Rings when in reality Jar Jar had done the exact same thing two years earlier. The fact that Jar Jar was annoying had nothing to do with the technical quality of the character animation and motion capture.

[Eternal_Freedom]

A big advantage this film (and presumably the following ones) have over the Prequels is that they don't have to tie into a preordained future event. The prequels were really hampered by that, because they had a set list of things they had to cover to set up the OT. The CLone Wars, Anakin's fall, the destruction of the Jedi, Palpatine's rise to power, etc. These new films can do pretty much whatever they want, since they've thrown out the EU. That's a big boost right there.

Plus, these films only have to be better than the Prequels, whereas the prequels had to live up to the OT (and more importantly, people's idealised memory of the OT). People are going to judge these against the Prequels, and in SW terms that's a low bar to beat.

[ray245]

A big advantage this film (and presumably the following ones) have over the Prequels is that they don't have to tie into a preordained future event. The prequels were really hampered by that, because they had a set list of things they had to cover to set up the OT. The CLone Wars, Anakin's fall, the destruction of the Jedi, Palpatine's rise to power, etc. These new films can do pretty much whatever they want, since they've thrown out the EU. That's a big boost right there.

Plus, these films only have to be better than the Prequels, whereas the prequels had to live up to the OT (and more importantly, people's idealised memory of the OT). People are going to judge these against the Prequels, and in SW terms that's a low bar to beat.

That doesn't rule out the possibility of it being worse than the prequels. I'm just concerned that in regards to the visuals, EP7 would look less interesting than the prequels.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh certainly they could be worse, my point is that the basis of comparison is going to be the (mostly disliked) prequels rather than the (generally loved) OT. So even if the new film is mediocre at best, it will still stand up favourable compared to TPM or AOTC.

[Borgholio]

I'm just concerned that in regards to the visuals, EP7 would look less interesting than the prequels.

I would not be concerned by that, if I were you. Remember that one of the big selling points is that they're using actual physical models of spaceships and building actual sets. They are using CGI to enhance what is already there, not going batshit crazy with the CGI like they did in Episode 3 where they pasted an actor's face on a CGI Stormtrooper body.

When I first saw the teaser, I almost shat myself within a couple eye-blinks when I noticed how fucking amazing the X-wings and Falcon looked using the model + CGI technique. I think that, if nothing else, Episode 7 will look REALLY good.

[ray245]

I'm just concerned that in regards to the visuals, EP7 would look less interesting than the prequels.

I would not be concerned by that, if I were you. Remember that one of the big selling points is that they're using actual physical models of spaceships and building actual sets. They are using CGI to enhance what is already there, not going batshit crazy with the CGI like they did in Episode 3 where they pasted an actor's face on a CGI Stormtrooper body.

When I first saw the teaser, I almost shat myself within a couple eye-blinks when I noticed how fucking amazing the X-wings and Falcon looked using the model + CGI technique. I think that, if nothing else, Episode 7 will look REALLY good.

It's precisely because they kept saying they are moving away from CGI that concern me. CGI can be used to depict alien worlds that simply isn't possible with location shooting and sets. I never understood this mindset of thinking that physical models is always superior to CGI.

Also, I highly doubt the Falcon scenes were actually using models. I think that's simply your excitement for the film clouding your judgement. I don't like the visuals of the teaser. I think they look far too boring in comparison to the prequels. It's a huge mistake if JJ and his crew thinks that moving away from the special effects used in the prequels is a good idea.

[Borgholio]

It's precisely because they kept saying they are moving away from CGI that concern me. CGI can be used to depict alien worlds that simply isn't possible with location shooting and sets. I never understood this mindset of thinking that physical models is always superior to CGI.

I don't think you read my post. I did not say they were doing away with CGI entirely, nor did I say that physical models are superior. Having physical models and sets give actual objects and environments for the actors and cameramen to interact with. It actually adds to the realism if there's something physically there in front of the camera. What they're doing is using CGI to add detail, special effects, and planetary / space backgrounds.

Also, I highly doubt the Falcon scenes were actually using models.

Reasoning please?

I think that's simply your excitement for the film clouding your judgement.

It's stated in black and white by the film's producer that they'll be using more models and less CGI. My judgment has nothing to do with it:

“It’s using model makers; it’s using real droids; it’s taking advantage of artwork that you actually can touch and feel. And we want to do that in combination with CG effects. We figure that’s what will make it real.”

I think they look far too boring in comparison to the prequels. It's a huge mistake if JJ and his crew thinks that moving away from the special effects used in the prequels is a good idea.

I'm half inclined to think you're trolling. At least I hope you are. The PT had almost as much CGI as it did live-action (sometimes more) and it showed. For example, in Episode 3, they photoshopped an actor's face onto a fully CGI clone trooper body. Some clone troopers having face to face conversations with main characters didn't even exist at all! In the lightsaber battle between Count Dooku and Obi Wan / Anakin, you could tell immediately when it switched from the live actors to CGI and back. It was really bad. Why would you want to go back to that?

[Anacronian]

this of course assumes that the captain of the ISD in question knew the details of the operation, for all we know his orders were to capture to the Corellian Corvette with this registry and make sure that none of the rebel agents onboard escape or make transmit anything, with everything else being on a "need to know basis" (which dispite how often it's missused in media is perfectly valid way to distribute information in military ops).

Well the Second Officer does talk to Vader about the plans right in front of somebody with the rank of Commander so i would guess the Captain as well would have some knowlegde about them.

all the imperial personel onboard the Tantive IV wore black uniforms, while all navy personel we clearly saw wore different color uniform (kind of greenish-grey that most imperials wear), suggesting that the officers on board the Tantive IV were not part of the navy (and thus not part of the chain of command for the star destroyer).

A Stormtrooper mentions the DS plans to Darth Vader while vader chokes the rebel officer in front of everybody .. i really don't think the Devastators mission was a secret to it's crew.

it's called "need to know" not "lets withhold vital mission information for no good reason", the stormtroopers needed to know what to look for as it was their mission to recover the plans, the captain of the ship tasked with disabling the corvette doesn't need to know about the plans

When I was doing my military service, I served as a runner for Regimental HQ, during that I either overheard or saw things that were classified and I was under orders to not reveal those things to anyone, so I have hard time beliving that stormtroopers would reveal details of secret mission to anyone especially when Darth Vader is present.

also the captain of the Devestator only need to know that the Tantive IV is carrying rebel agents and that repesentive of the Emperor wants that ship captured intact and that all transmissions prevented, he doesn't need to know why.

The Captain also wears black - also there Black clad officers on the Death Star like the one that informs Lord Vader that the rebel fighters are to small to hit with Turbolasers so i don't think they are so unusual, Also the stormtroopers dosen't stop remembering the sensitive information once Vader leaves, At the end of the day i find it unlikely that Vader would mention something very secret in front of 8-10 troopers plus the second officer and somebody with the rank of Commander.

It's more likely that Devastator is a black operations ship crewed by the most trusted crew in the empire.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm half inclined to think you're trolling. At least I hope you are. The PT had almost as much CGI as it did live-action (sometimes more) and it showed. For example, in Episode 3, they photoshopped an actor's face onto a fully CGI clone trooper body. Some clone troopers having face to face conversations with main characters didn't even exist at all! In the lightsaber battle between Count Dooku and Obi Wan / Anakin, you could tell immediately when it switched from the live actors to CGI and back. It was really bad. Why would you want to go back to that?

The issue I noticed the most was the lack of physical sets. If you compare the interior shots of the Invisible Hand to the Death Star it is incredibly striking how much more real the halls of the Death Star look, because it was. ROTS was, except for the actors, very nearly an animated film*. While it was excellent animation in most cases, it would have been better still if there were more physical sets, especially for up close work interacting with the actors . Even TPM in many cases actually holds up better visually because there were still physical sets and backgrounds to back up the CGI. Going back to that would in most cases be superior.

* It was striking watching the behind the scenes footage of some scenes for AOTC and ROTS that there was almost never anything around the actors. The one exception was that the floors were frequently physical sets as it is rather hard to animated around the feet of actors properly. The inverse is also true and is a reason that in TPM Jar Jar's feet aren't seen all that often.

[Lord Revan]

The Captain also wears black - also there Black clad officers on the Death Star like the one that informs Lord Vader that the rebel fighters are to small to hit with Turbolasers so i don't think they are so unusual, Also the stormtroopers dosen't stop remembering the sensitive information once Vader leaves, At the end of the day i find it unlikely that Vader would mention something very secret in front of 8-10 troopers plus the second officer and somebody with the rank of Commander.

It's more likely that Devastator is a black operations ship crewed by the most trusted crew in the empire.

I'll have to rewatch but I'm pretty sure the scene with the captain is dark enough that it could be that simply didn't bother to consider the uniform color, besides I said most not all.

how ever a stormtrooper wouldn't gossip about top secret mission info cause those are his orders, be it 10 or 100 troopers, orders are orders and if you're under orders to not disclose mission information to those not involved in the operation in most cases you won't, since if you do best case scenario is that you never work with sensitive material ever again, more likely outcome would be that you'll be at the very least dishonorbly discharged from service and that's ignoring that the Galactic Empire is not a democracy.

Having Darth Vader who is known for exessive punishment for even minor infractions would only encourage the troopers to their orders to the letter, besides it's likely those were 501st legion troopers meaning they serve under Vader permanently.

also you seem to be under the impression that a commander is a very low rank, my regimental CO was a full commander, a commander would be the almost highest rank you'd see on field ops regulary and even so if present we must assume they would relible enough to babble about sensitive mission info, you don't become a commander if you have so loose tongue that rebels could use you as a regular source of information about top secret ops.

trust me on this dispite what Hollywood says "need to know" isn't "lets withhold vital mission info cause someone doesn't have the right rank" but it's "lets give everything they need to know to accomplish the mission, but only that so they won't get confused by non-vital information"

[Anacronian]

The Captain also wears black - also there Black clad officers on the Death Star like the one that informs Lord Vader that the rebel fighters are to small to hit with Turbolasers so i don't think they are so unusual, Also the stormtroopers dosen't stop remembering the sensitive information once Vader leaves, At the end of the day i find it unlikely that Vader would mention something very secret in front of 8-10 troopers plus the second officer and somebody with the rank of Commander.

It's more likely that Devastator is a black operations ship crewed by the most trusted crew in the empire.

I'll have to rewatch but I'm pretty sure the scene with the captain is dark enough that it could be that simply didn't bother to consider the uniform color, besides I said most not all.

It's black therefore fitting your earlier critiria of the officers in black uniforms were some kind of special opperations officers.

how ever a stormtrooper wouldn't gossip about top secret mission info cause those are his orders, be it 10 or 100 troopers, orders are orders and if you're under orders to not disclose mission information to those not involved in the operation in most cases you won't, since if you do best case scenario is that you never work with sensitive material ever again, more likely outcome would be that you'll be at the very least dishonorbly discharged from service and that's ignoring that the Galactic Empire is not a democracy.

Having Darth Vader who is known for exessive punishment for even minor infractions would only encourage the troopers to their orders to the letter, besides it's likely those were 501st legion troopers meaning they serve under Vader permanently.

i do know one thing about secrets - you tell them to as few people as possible - and still if you're gonna run around spilling the beans to every stormtrooper you meet there is no reason to keep the secret from the Captain.

also you seem to be under the impression that a commander is a very low rank, my regimental CO was a full commander, a commander would be the almost highest rank you'd see on field ops regulary and even so if present we must assume they would relible enough to babble about sensitive mission info, you don't become a commander if you have so loose tongue that rebels could use you as a regular source of information about top secret ops.

i haven said a word about Commander being a low or high rank - the script refers to the person as commander (no name) so i call him commander - Your belief that i think a rank of Commander is a low rank i'll attribute to your imagination.

trust me on this dispite what Hollywood says "need to know" isn't "lets withhold vital mission info cause someone doesn't have the right rank" but it's "lets give everything they need to know to accomplish the mission, but only that so they won't get confused by non-vital information"

Hi i'm Darth Vader i'm gonna inform the Second in Command plus random Commander and some stormtroopers (because they don't like to gossip about stuff ..like the new VT-16) about our vital mission just for the hell of it.. but not the ships captain because that would make to much sense.