Best and Worst EU

[Darth Yan]

With the EU being shunted off to legends, what are the best and worst examples of what the EU was over it's long run.

For me

Best:



Traitor: Dark, philosophical, and brooding. In spite of this it still managed to stay true to the movies if you read between the lines (its more of a light and dark are both aspects, and if you embrace emotions like compassion and empathy while embracing the force you will be stronger then the sith while being light). Plus it changed Jacen from a whiny pussy into a genuine badass

Destiny's Way: This is when the darkness of the NJO finally turns around, and it features everything good about Star wars. IT has political intrigue (note, Fyor Rodan manages to give legitimate criticism of the jedi while still being shown as in the wrong by having the jedi address his complaints and him still being unable to let go of his pride.) The battle of Ebaq 9 is one of the greatest space battles in the EU, and it managed to be fast paced intense, and even heartbreaking (say what you will about Vergere but on rereading the book I got a little teary eyed about her death; she saved everyone on that moon at the cost of her life).

The Unifying Force: Hands down the Greatest book in the EU period. It had action, heartbreak, hope, character development and managed to tie up all the plot threads reasonably. The final battle between Jacen and the Supreme Overlord was great, and that scene where he falls before the fury of the force was a culmination of Jacen's evolution; the scene where the vong citadel explodes in high orbit is when we realize that yes, the good guys have won, after 4 years of heartbreak. If only I'd known about the damn book when it came out. It also

Darth Plageuis: Another great book. We get Palpatine's past fleshed out in a way that keeps the mystique about him, Plagueis is a great villain, and it even manages to provide two windows for how Anakin was made.

Worst

Revelations: I was so looking forwards to this which made it even more disappointing. Karen Traviss's bullshit shines through, the buildup to Jaina meeting fett was wasted. I'm just angry thinking about this book and its still been 6 years.

Revan: Not a bad book, but meh. Some of the plot holes were annoying (Revan reaching out across the whole galaxy to find meetra is more wanked than anything in the movie), and it felt lame that the exile went out how she did.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Wraith Squadron books, and the Enemy Lines duology in the Vong war era. Awesome, cool action sequences, humour, character pieces, an generally Wedge Antilles and co. being awesome.

Plus the hilarity of him accidentally winning a major battle when he was trying to lose.

Worst? The Jedi Academy series was pretty lackluster, but the worst that I've read is probably the Karen Traviss books in the Post-NJO series.

[Gaidin]

The Wraith Squadron books, and the Enemy Lines duology in the Vong war era. Awesome, cool action sequences, humour, character pieces, an generally Wedge Antilles and co. being awesome.

Plus the hilarity of him accidentally winning a major battle when he was trying to lose.

Not just trying to lose, but look like he was trying to win, and fail. He was doing a good job of it. And then circumstances happen that force him to have to plow over the enemy. Hilarity.

[Eternal_Freedom]

"General Antilles was so good he couldn't lose when he tried." Priceless

[RogueIce]

Best: Timothy Zahn

Worst: Karen Traviss

[Batman]

Best: The 5 Thrawn books and Wraith Squadron.
Worst: Tie between Jedi Academy trilogy cum Darksaber and The Crystal Star (before anybody mentions the Travissties, I gave up on the EU long before those so I never ran into them).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh god you reminded me of the Crystal Star. I'd blotted that from my memory (I think its one of only two books I actually burned).

[Batman]

If I have to remember that unholy abomination, so will everybody else. Misery loves company and all that.

[Purple]

What is that all about? How bad could it be?

[Eternal_Freedom]

You don't want to know

If you never trusted anything I said before, trust me on this. You do not want to know.

EDIT: Batman, touche.

[Gaidin]

"General Antilles was so good he couldn't lose when he tried." Priceless

I think basically the Lusankya showed up in a bad place and it was just a ship they couldn't afford to lose on their terms not their own. Wedge: "Crap." Later she does a suicide run anyway.

[Eternal_Freedom]

"General Antilles was so good he couldn't lose when he tried." Priceless

I think basically the Lusankya showed up in a bad place and it was just a ship they couldn't afford to lose on their terms not their own. Wedge: "Crap." Later she does a suicide run anyway.

Actually, I read it as the Lusankya appearing at an ideal place and Wedge knew he couldn't waste the opportunity, even if it did screw his plans.

[Gaidin]

I could be totally wrong. Been a few years...

As for Crystal Star, I will only say that it makes Traviss look good.

[Grumman]

I believe Eternal_Freedom is correct. The plan was to play for time without losing anything of significance, the Lusankya included, but when a friendly Super Star Destroyer stops by and immediately decapitates the enemy command structure, things have already escalated whether you like it or not.

My top picks would be the Thrawn books and the Enemy Lines duology, but there are quite a few books I haven't read. My worst picks would be Traviss's book about Order 66 and a few of the ones from the Legacy of the Force series. Being a terrible writer is one thing, but when you seem surprised that people don't take kindly to you citing the Nuremberg defense in support of committing genocide, it's hard not to think you're a terrible person.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Now that I think about it, I have to add a few more to the "Best of" category. The Thrawn Trilogy (and the following pair) are certainly excellent, and set the standard for EU books as far as I was concerned. But two more of Zahn's boos deserve a mention, namely Outbound Flight and Survivor's Quest, which are , IMHO, truly excellent.

Also, Traviss sued the Nuremburg defence? As in, her, or one of her characters? I pretty much gave up after X-Wing: Mercy Kill.

[Gaidin]

I believe Eternal_Freedom is correct. The plan was to play for time without losing anything of significance, the Lusankya included, but when a friendly Super Star Destroyer stops by and immediately decapitates the enemy command structure, things have already escalated whether you like it or not.

My top picks would be the Thrawn books and the Enemy Lines duology, but there are quite a few books I haven't read. My worst picks would be Traviss's book about Order 66 and a few of the ones from the Legacy of the Force series. Being a terrible writer is one thing, but when you seem surprised that people don't take kindly to you citing the Nuremberg defense in support of committing genocide, it's hard not to think you're a terrible person.

I never knew about the whole Nuremberg thing, but I'm not really appealing to the author as a person. That's not really what I go for in this. There's terrible person and there's strange and wierd things that can get wtf or strange looks, and I won't argue that. Crystal Star was just an utterly bad piece of writing and all around the worst part of the EU in my opinion.

[Batman]

While I'm inclined to agree that individually, 'The Crystal Star' was the worst of the EU (as I know it), it essentially had zero effect on the 'rest' of the EU. The Jedi Academy/Darksaber, on the other hand...

[Gaidin]

While I'm inclined to agree that individually, 'The Crystal Star' was the worst of the EU (as I know it), it essentially had zero effect on the 'rest' of the EU. The Jedi Academy/Darksaber, on the other hand...

This is true. Somehow they managed to pretend the Crystal Star didn't exist. The other two were...pretty big. Thankfully, as bad as they were, they also had enough cheese in them that I could treat them as delightfully bad but still entertaining popcorn reading unlike what some other authors tried to do with their writing in the EU. Out of that 'area' of the EU the most honestly bad ones were Children of the Jedi and Planet of Twilight because it lacked what it needed for me to turn my brain off. Darksaber? Action!

[Darth Nostril]

What is that all about? How bad could it be?

Somebody wrote a really, really, really bad scifi novel.
Then they changed all the names and places to try and shoehorn it into the Star Wars universe, making it about a hundred times worse.

It genuinely is an epically shit piece of writing, after reading it I gave up on the SW EU and never looked back.

[Joun_Lord]

Probably the best was the X-Wing/Wraith Squadron books. They had that right mix of action and humor that tends to work best in SW. Far too much of the EU is RAR GRIMDARK which anytime I want that I go for a Warhammer 40k book (which does it better and still has a bit of humor to varying degrees).

Not books but EU nonetheless but the Republic Commando GAME and the Dark Forces series. Great games all around with the former actually having some war in Star Wars and the latter just being some fun games with the last game being the best Jedi game bar none.

Another not books in the Legacy comic series, not the Legacy of the Force books. A surprisingly awesome series with pretty nuanced characters. It introduced us to the best group of Force users, had heroic Imperials, and Cade Skywalker was damn well written. And the designs in the series were pretty great too, some of it was rehashed OT/PT stuff of course (most notably the Stormie armor that was a blending of standard Stormtrooper armor with some Clonetrooper elements) but plenty was new and unlike the shit from The Old Republic wasn't a totally blatant rip-off.

Worst is the Crystal Star, anything by Karen Traviss that has been thankfully mostly killed twice over, and most of the tired poorly written crap after the NJO (which had its moments but wasn't all that great either but still leagues better then what followed). Between Traviss's written diarrhea and Jacen Solo/Daala shitfest that was the Joiner/LOTF books it managed to just about kill my love of Star Wars and to certainly make me a movie purist. Thats something that not even the crap that was Voyager, Enterprise, Insurrection, and Nemesis did for my love of Trek.

That shit was so terrible I trot it out anytime someone bad mouths the Prequels or George Lucas's writing. If they want to see bad SW or assholes who don't know what the fuck they are writing, take a gander at that shit. Fucking Jar Jar Binks is freaking Oscar material compared to some of the crap to spew from the crusted asshole that was the EU.

Honorable mention for bad EU goes to the Force Unleashed lightbat games that were just plain terrible from in gaming, story, and mechanics. I'd also like to add SW Rebels but I'm not, I know my dislike of it is from being burned out and jaded as fuck with Star Wars and looking at everything overly critical, sympathizing more with the Stormtroopers then the plucky Rebel Scum with their bland as fuck and should be dead Sarah Michelle Gellar hubby Jedi guy and Rainbow Dash Mandawhoreian graffiti artist who thinks its fun to paint dead soldiers, and probably the fact I'm close to 30 and its a kids show (a kids show I keep referring to as Star Wars Space Al Qaeda, told you I was jaded as fuck). The show is probably nowhere near as bad as my fatty nerd rage is filtering it in my mind to be.

[Grumman]

Also, Traviss used the Nuremburg defence? As in, her, or one of her characters?

One of her characters ranted a bit about how refusing an immoral order was treason. Traviss could have written the Clone Troopers as sympathetic characters who were forced by their conditioning to murder men and women with whom they'd served for months, but she wanted to write them as sympathetic characters who followed an order to commit genocide against their allies because they wanted to.

[Adam Reynolds]

I can say I've never read The Crystal Star or any of the other truly awful books, save Darksaber and Vector Prime. I feel like I have an unusual position, as compared to the rest of this thread. I feel that while elements of the EU are entertaining, almost none of it is proper Star Wars. Some of them are entertaining and even good stories, but none truly feel like proper Star Wars. And there are various elements that detract from the films in various ways.

Even the best listed here, Zahn and everything featuring Wedge Antillies, have problems. The Thrawn trilogy, the classic that gave birth to the EU, is quite frequently seen through rose colored glasses. Many elements of the story don't really fit with the movies. Almost everything involving the Force and Jedi from those books was problematic. Adding anti-Jedi kryptonite lizards was hardly necessary, especially as they became a default solution for lazier writers. A better solution would have been to simply have Luke be overwhelmed by the scale of the galaxy(the other key problem with his books), as a single Jedi can only be in so many places at once. To make matters worse, he is so busy solving problems that he barely has any time to train fellow Jedi, even including Leia. This would have also had the affect of forcing the normal characters to be more involved as well. Besides that, cloning Jedi also destroys what makes them special, as well as would require that Force affinity is a genetic trait, something that has several issues from an evolutionary standpoint. In addition, while I in many ways like her character, one must admit that Mara Jade was a cheap Vader knockoff. This is not to mention the oddity of C'baoth(which is also a confusing name).

As for Wedge Antilies, there seem to be two versions of this character. Film Wedge is a reliable fighter pilot. Nothing more, nothing less. He was the only pilot in the first three movies to be present and survive all three, never being shot down or even taking any noticeable damage. He actually has the distinction of being the only named pilot in all six films to never be shot down or crash. However he is not shown in any capacity beyond this, he is not a particularly skilled tactician or leader, and in his first mission he became subordinate to Luke, a brand new pilot. We also see him in a subordinate role at Endor, also not noticing that the shield over the Death Star is still up, assuming that no reading equals no shield, while Lando immediately realized it had to be jamming and thus a trap. While obviously out of universe this was due to the fact that Lando was a main character and Wedge isn't really, it doesn't put Wedge's judgement in the best light in universe.

For the set of stories I generally dislike, as opposed to a judgement of overall quality, the NJO takes the cake for me. While it was nice that we saw an enemy that was actually new and original as compared to Imperial commander #57, I felt the concept of the Vong were awful. One could go blue in the face pointing out the problems with everything with their design, but I will only mention the most obvious. If someone told you that there was a group of books that featured an alien invasion of the Star Wars galaxy, without knowing any context, what would your response be? Does that really sound like the type of thing that would really fit Star Wars?

As for the absolute worst Traviss is probably among the worst, along with KJA, as unlike books like The Crystal Star they directly affect the events of the films. Ten of the worst books of the original run, The Crystal Star, The New Rebellion, Children of the Jedi and Planet of Twilight, in addition to forgettable Corellian and Black Fleet Trilogies can easily be ignored in that they affect nothing before or after all that much. This is also true for any stories that take place chronologically later. One can ignore those, as any earlier references can simply be ignored. This is not the case from anything from the 2002-2005 Clone Wars continuity or the NJO, it all affects the better stories. Even the good ones, like Labyrinth of Evil* and the Revenge of the Sith novelization, are stuck with references to The Clone Wars microseries and The Cestus Deception.

* In keeping my point about criticizing the best of the EU, the biggest problem with books like Labyrinth of Evil and the similar Cloak of Deception is that they should have never been necessary. Using add on books to fix apparent plot holes in the films is absurd. Besides this, they are weakened by a desire to fill every possible gap in storytelling, which ultimately weakens the story. Leaving things to the imagination is not a flaw.

Not books but EU nonetheless but the Republic Commando GAME and the Dark Forces series. Great games all around with the former actually having some war in Star Wars and the latter just being some fun games with the last game being the best Jedi game bar none.

I would have to agree about Jedi Academy feeling like the best Jedi simulator. In addition KOTOR also had a fairly good story, that actually felt like proper Star Wars at its best, though it was heavily polluted by being an RPG. If ANH had the same elements, Obi-Wan and Luke would have had to pay of Han's debt before being able to flee from the Imperial troops that were supposedly hot on their heels.

That shit was so terrible I trot it out anytime someone bad mouths the Prequels or George Lucas's writing. If they want to see bad SW or assholes who don't know what the fuck they are writing, take a gander at that shit. Fucking Jar Jar Binks is freaking Oscar material compared to some of the crap to spew from the crusted asshole that was the EU.

The one I especially found odd was that anyone could ever criticize the prequels and then like the Clone Wars series, that were explicitly made for children. While I would never call the prequels perfect or great movies, they were excellent in comparison to the cartoons. Look at the view of the Clone Wars in ROTS as opposed to the cartoon, sometimes it barely feels that there is a galactic war going on. While obviously the budget is limited in the series, it is still bad from a storytelling standpoint. For all the flaws of Rebels, at least it is at a reasonable scale for the medium.

[Joun_Lord]

The one I especially found odd was that anyone could ever criticize the prequels and then like the Clone Wars series, that were explicitly made for children. While I would never call the prequels perfect or great movies, they were excellent in comparison to the cartoons. Look at the view of the Clone Wars in ROTS as opposed to the cartoon, sometimes it barely feels that there is a galactic war going on. While obviously the budget is limited in the series, it is still bad from a storytelling standpoint. For all the flaws of Rebels, at least it is at a reasonable scale for the medium.

The Clone Wars CG series was.......odd to say the least. Some episodes were kiddy slapstick stuff while others were downright dark, like child killing Ep3 style dark. And Episode 3 was plenty dark with a kindly old grandpa looking dude getting dehanded and then beheaded, slaughter of younglings, joking of a preggo chick, and delimbing and barbecuing the guy that most people still remember as the cute little kid saying wizard and yippie. The rest of the Prequels had their dark moments too like the slaughter of an entire village including women and children and Qui Gon getting impaled.

But back to the Clone Wars series, it might have been made for children but had its mature moments. It also, mostly thanks to 4 episodes about equaling a movie and over 20 episodes a season, also had more characterization for the Jedi and Clones compared to the movies. The movies also had to tell a certain story and didn't have the time to focus on other bullshit happening around the galaxy, which the series was able to from fighting on backwaters to Senate bullshit (which I'm sure everyone was just clamoring for) to whats happening on allied planets like Mandalore.

As for scale, that is by no means a problem limited to just the cartoons or CG series. I think they tried to have some larger battles (the Tartakovsky CW series showed some pretty damn impressive sized battles all things considered) but most of the focus was on a smaller scale. Not as bad as others who thought a galactic war could be fought with 3 millions clones plus about 10,000ish Jedi Bendu. Also half of the Clones were dead by mid war. Also their was little if any non clone troops. Also the Clones were not only infantry but flew the planes, crewed the cruisers, drove the walkers, and fixed the broken bits.

At the Battle of Coruscant there were over a 1000 Venator class Star Destroyers. Just to crew 1 you need 7,400 and that doesn't include troops and presumably the pilots for the nearly 500 fighters onboard. So just to crew only 1000 Venators with no ground pounders or flyboys you need 7,400,000 dudes. Now remember there was over a 1000 Venators there plus numerous other ships like Acclamators, Dreadnaughts, VicStars, and Carrack cruisers. Plus probably 100s of thousands of fighters and who knows how many troops, just the 1000 VenStars alone would carry 2 million Troopers.

I think the fucktarded Order 66 novel tried to justify this by saying Palpy had some SECRET CLONES!!!! wooo that he had stashed somewhere and brought out to fight in the battle but I dunno, reading that novel made my brain hurt worse then reading Twilight.

Just too many authors have no idea the sheer scale of how large a galactic war would be fought and thus we wind up with 1.5 millions Clonetroopers to defend a Republic of 1.3 millions planets. Now my math really, really, REALLY sucks but even I find those numbers to make little sense.

[Adam Reynolds]

If it wasn't clear enough, I was meaning that ROTS actually showed the proper scale of galactic war for the most part, while the series did not.

My key problem with the series is that nothing of consequence can happen as we already know how it ends. While this is obviously also true with any other part of the EU that takes place between movies, this one has the problem of being so much longer than any of those as well as the issue that all of the truly important events already happened in the movies.

As for the darker episodes, I never watched the series beyond the second season or so and thus almost all of what I saw was the lighter and fluffier episodes. Including not one, but two Jar Jar centric episodes. I'd heard that some of the later seasons are considered better and much darker, which seemed odd to me given that this series was always marketed towards kids.

In what I saw there were several issues that bothered me in terms of their connection to ROTS. The biggest one was that Obi-Wan and Grievous kept fighting in various episodes. Why would the Jedi Council trust him to kill Grievous this time when they had already locked lightsabers four times, and Grievous never failed to escape*? If you continue trying the same strategy, one is either insane or is trying to lose.

This is not to mention the issue with Ashoka, regardless of how her character turned out, the concept of Anakin having a padawan during the Clone Wars completely flies in the face of how he was portrayed in ROTS. Why would the Jedi Council give him a padawan when he was recently promoted to knight himself? Especially given that they barely trusted him, hence why he and Obi-Wan still operated together the overwhelming majority of the time. Is this not the same Anakin who was only promoted to the Council because of Palpatine?

* In the episodes: Destroy Malvolence, Grevious Intrigue, The Deserter, and Arc Troopers.

[Mange]

Even if TCW showed smallish battles, larger scale battles were alluded to (such as the planetary invasions of Geonosis and Ryloth).