Canon ship designs of the neu-Canon.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So far I understand that the novelizations are still canon, which combined with the movies and the two neu-Canon novels and Clone Wars and Rebels a set of ships which are canon presently.

Thus we have the ISD-I, ISD-II, Executor-class, Tector (but the name de-canonized) and the Communications Ship (also with her name de-canonized) as five classes of Imperial warship seen in the original movies. In the prequels we have the Acclamator and Venator, and the Acclamator cruiser variant from the Clone Wars, I think. Then in the novel "Tarkin", the following classes were re-canonized: The Victory-class star destroyer, the Secutor-class star destroyer (Ansel Hsiao's large carrier design of 2,200 meters), the Carrack-class light cruiser--my favourite of the non-wedge EU ships, so that made me happy--and three designs of interdictor: The Immobilizer, the CC-770 Interdictor Frigate, and the Detainer CC-2200 Interdictor Cruiser. Also of course the assumption that a variety of CR70/90 corvettes and Consular cruisers were inheirited from the Republic is reasonable, and this leaves us with the composition of the Imperial Starfleet by class presently established in the neu-Canon.

I don't know if someone wants to do a more expansive list, but I thought it useful to begin tabulating what's part of the neu-Canon and what isn't. These inclusions tend to suggest a relatively diverse fleet, and with the new homogenized canon policy, may see some of them end up in the movies that previously only existed in the now gone EU.

[The Romulan Republic]

There's also the reference to "bulk cruisers" in A New Hope.

And it would be nice to work out lists of ships for factions besides the Empire.

[Adam Reynolds]

I don't see how the novelizations can possibly be canon if the Clone Wars series is, given that the ROTS novelization is chock full of references to the pre-ROTS Clone Wars EU that are contradicted by the series. Among those are: Anakin not knowing what a Magnaguard is despite fighting them in the series, Obi-Wan discussing fighting Grevious with Mace Windu, even though Obi-Wan had fought him several times in the series and repeated references to Labyrinth of Evil and its investigation into what Sidious was doing. This is not to mention minor references to things like Hapes and Haruun Kal. It is really too bad because Stover wrote an excellent book, in some ways even better than what was shown in the movie.

The same is true with the Visual Dictionaries and ICS books. The OT visual dictionary includes references to Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina as well as Tales from Jabba's Palace, themselves full of references to the rest of the EU. In this respect the EU is rather like Scheherazade's tales, every story is nested within another such that there is no way out. It really is an all or nothing scenario.

Though if the novelization of ROTS is canon, it does feature both Dreadnaughts and Carrack-class light cruisers, as well as a mention of the Victory class.

and the Acclamator cruiser variant from the Clone Wars

When was this featured? Is this the one from the original microseries in 2003? Is that still canon? I thought it was only the 2008 series that still counted(much to my annoyance).

[Mange]

The novelizations are canon "where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie" as per Del Ray:

Twitter

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I believe we therefore add the venerable bulk cruiser and Dreadnought-class.

As Mange noted, the novelizations are part of the nu-canon, but with a reduced canon status -- meaning that novelizations of movies and TV occupy the same status the old EU did, but are the only thing to do so.

So the nu-Canon hierarchy is:

Unified Canon: Episodes I - VI + VII and later, Star Wars: The Clone Wars. Star Wars: Rebels. Tarkin, other post-April 2014 Star Wars novels unless released under the Legends banner.
Canon when not contradicted: Novelizations of Episodes I-VI and later, novelizations of the Clone Wars and Rebels.
non-Canon: Future RPGs and video-games.
Legends: Legacy material and future material explicitly released under the Legends banner.

[RogueIce]

Canon when not contradicted: Novelizations of Episodes I-VI and later, novelizations of the Clone Wars and Rebels.

I don't think that's accurate. Really that quote could go either way: "EU-lite" or simply saying that only the exact scene if entirely verbatim and exactly the same in every detail with the movies counts, and everything else is Legends. FWIW Wookieepedia seems to have settled on them being Legends.

non-Canon: Future RPGs and video-games

I would figure on things that are explicitly game mechanics, or otherwise sandbox elements like the campaigns from Rebellion or Empire at War, but otherwise the stories are still non-Canon?

Not that I would complain if it were so (less crap the better) but I'm curious where that was stated to be so.

[Darksider]

Legends: Legacy material and future material explicitly released under the Legends banner.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for the latter..........

[The Duchess of Zeon]

RogueIce, I feel that interpretation is ridiculous. Align is a much less common word than describe and requires a second word "what" to fit in the sentence. Modern writers tend to economize words, especially in American English, and the most parsimonious description would be "where they describe what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie". Instead, it is: "where they align with what is seen on screen in the 6 films and the Clone Wars animated movie". That is explicitly a description which reserves canonicity for novelizations and if Wookieepedia thinks otherwise, they're wrong.

[RogueIce]

Well most of their other statements were rather explicit about only the filmed movies, TCW CGI series, and anything else going forward. AFAIK that was the only tweet or statement saying the novelizations had any weight at all. Most everyone else stuck with "Movies and TV show".

If anyone can find/remember where Pablo Hidalgo was asked about it (because I'm sure he was) and if he answered, that would be helpful.

Because this seems rather explicit to me:


IE: "on the screen"

[Mange]

I'm certain that Hidalgo etc. mostly refers to elements of the novelizations that are contradicted by the movies (in the ROTJ novelization, Obi-Wan and Owen were brothers. That was still in the shooting script, but it was of course dropped.). I think treating them as canon "when not contradicted" is stretching it a bit though (as for example the ROTS novelization is full of EU references and I'm not at all sure that those references are canonized for being in the novel as well as the status of the additional scenes not found in the screenplays).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That Hidalgo quote is from December of 2013 before the new canon policy was finalized, whereas the Del Ray quote is clarifying the canon policy after it has been finalized and implemented.

Why would EU references in the novelizations be discredited when those in Tarkin aren't? Luceno does reference his prior work on the Grand Moff to a certain extent.

Anyway, it's at least clear that this issue hasn't been decisively settled. The novelizations were traditionally a higher level of canon than the rest of the EU, and the jettisoning of the EU was a good thing but I'm much more dubious about getting rid of the novelizations and screenplays, and it seems Del Ray at least has the same thinking, that expanded universe material is gone but the novelizations were always distinct from it--which is reasonable, as novelizations of movies are a normal occurrence distinct from Star Wars which normally follow the director's vision much more closely than mere tie-ins.

[Joun_Lord]

I wonder if Tarkin is even canon or just existing in this quasi-canon state while they hammer out what is or isn't canon. I wonder if they will just say fuck it and pretty much go "screen" purist and implied above, anything on the silver or small screen is canon, everything else is separate either in its own continuity or just non-canon like the Trek books and comics.

Probably the novelizations are okay except for like EP3 with its multiple EU references and probably operating under the "whatever is on screen is the benchmark, anything the contradicts is non-canon" but its hard to say.

I wonder if Old Republic and Clone Wars stuff is non-canon. They shouldn't be effected by the new movie timelines.

[Mange]

Tarkin is canon, but as I wrote just as my browser crashed, I believe Luceno is right when he in this interview says that the old and the new canon will share many elements. I think it would've been better if the Story Group had sat down and hammered out what elements are canon before going ahead as they've done now. What good does a random inclusion here and there do?

The status of The Old Republic is unclear and Jennifer Heddle of the Story Group was uncertain whether it was canon or not (and nothing has been heard since). The Clone Wars stuff, with the exception of TCW and referenced things, are non-canon.

One good thing I read somewhere is while the GFFA geographic regions have recanonized, the Unknown Regions have not.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yeah, there's no question at all that Tarkin and that first Rebels tie-in novel (and all the subsequent ones) are full canon co-equal to the movies and shows from here on out. That is the stated policy of the storygroup. The only gray area that exists is the novelizations and, as Mange noted, The Old Republic going forward. I expect there will be more clarifications on account of that.

[RogueIce]

I wonder if Tarkin is even canon or just existing in this quasi-canon state while they hammer out what is or isn't canon. I wonder if they will just say fuck it and pretty much go "screen" purist and implied above, anything on the silver or small screen is canon, everything else is separate either in its own continuity or just non-canon like the Trek books and comics.

Probably the novelizations are okay except for like EP3 with its multiple EU references and probably operating under the "whatever is on screen is the benchmark, anything the contradicts is non-canon" but its hard to say.

I wonder if Old Republic and Clone Wars stuff is non-canon. They shouldn't be effected by the new movie timelines.

They've said books, comics and so on going forward from their announcement (which was like May 2014 or around there) would definitely be canon. The only question really is the movie novelizations, of which there is some debate. The subsequent novels however are unambiguously canon (unless they do another Purge later on down the line).

Why would EU references in the novelizations be discredited when those in Tarkin aren't? Luceno does reference his prior work on the Grand Moff to a certain extent.

The argument there would be Tarkin was approved by the Story Group, whereas the Ep3 novelization - or more specifically, the Labyrinth of Evil (or whichever book made up the first of that "Ep3 trilogy") - was not.

Which is not to say that stuff won't pop up in canon again - Tarkin and even Rebels has already demonstrated that yes, it can - but I just don't know if it was officially retained or not.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It does occur to me that the canon status of the novelizations actually only changes one thing: The claim that the communications ship has a hangar. That's why it's been argued the Tector and the Communications Ship were different classes. The image of the Imperial fleet in the background of the throne room clearly shows a ship 1/3rd the size of Executor, and we clearly see the different command tower which is appropriate for that vessel. But without the novelizations, the shot of the different ventral hull lacking in a hangar could be associated with the Communications Ship rather than with a hypothetical additional design. With the novelization, it clearly establishes that there's yet another design of ship in service at Endor.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Though that does make me wonder now if pronouncements clarifying canon from before are still true if they don't reference the EU. If Leland Chee says "That is a Tector in ROTJ", is that still valid? If Pablo Hidalgo set the diameter of the Death Star 2 at 160 km, is that still valid?

[RogueIce]

Though that does make me wonder now if pronouncements clarifying canon from before are still true if they don't reference the EU. If Leland Chee says "That is a Tector in ROTJ", is that still valid? If Pablo Hidalgo set the diameter of the Death Star 2 at 160 km, is that still valid?

That would probably depend on when those comments were made. As you correctly pointed out with the tweet I posted, that statement was made before the new canon policy was finalized. If those statements were also made prior to the new policy went into effect, I would say they'd fall under the same principle.

IOW, they could be considered Legends or quasi-canon? The information is there, if the size of the Death Star or what ships were at the Battle of Endor becomes relevant to a new story, comic or whatever. But until it's stated, it's really more along the lines of background information which may or may not become officially re-canonized.

[Batman]

How can the DS2 being 160km be valid when the damned movie says it's a hell of a lot bigger than that?

[RogueIce]

How can the DS2 being 160km be valid when the damned movie says it's a hell of a lot bigger than that?

VFX errors.

But seriously, VFX errors. I mean, doesn't the Millenium Falcon have issues with inconsistent sizes? IIRC so too does the USS Defiant from Star Trek.

Granted AFAIK the DS II doesn't have those inconsistencies, so its VFX model can probably be taken as accurate. If it does though, the waters get a lot murkier.

[Adam Reynolds]

But seriously, VFX errors. I mean, doesn't the Millenium Falcon have issues with inconsistent sizes? IIRC so too does the USS Defiant from Star Trek.

This was a result of the Falcon's model being created much later than any of the other ships as its design wasn't finalized until much later. The original design was what would eventually become Leia's Correlian Corvette.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Someone should put together the canon article for the communications ship. What to call it, though? "Unidentified super star destroyer class" would probably be the best bet for the current canon policy.

As for the issue with the Death Star 2, I am pretty sure Pablo Hidalgo issued a formal pronouncement circa 2012 declaring it to be 160km. And honestly I was fine with it, as the Essential Atlas and Essential Guide to Warfare collectively threaded the needle to make an enjoyable homogenized EU continuity that actually made sense and some sacrifices of the maximalist position to allow this were acceptable. I was wondering if those old pronouncements were still valid.

[Mange]

As for the issue with the Death Star 2, I am pretty sure Pablo Hidalgo issued a formal pronouncement circa 2012 declaring it to be 160km. And honestly I was fine with it, as the Essential Atlas and Essential Guide to Warfare collectively threaded the needle to make an enjoyable homogenized EU continuity that actually made sense and some sacrifices of the maximalist position to allow this were acceptable. I was wondering if those old pronouncements were still valid.

As late as November 2013, Chee stated that "they" considered the 120km and 160 km sizes "authoritative":

+https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/stat ... 0107222016

Funny enough, the Hyperspace fan club feature Galactic Gallery showed a late sketch by McQuarrie on June 14, 2005 called "A Small Moon" showing the DSI to be 92 miles in diameter (148km) with the equatorial trench being two miles in height.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Then that's probably still a feature of the unified canon.