Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

[Borgholio]

Well Lyta hasn't been enhanced yet at this time frame so really there's nobody stronger than a P-12 available.

[Alyrium Denryle]

the problem with Lyta is that we don't know just how powerful she is beyond that she's more powerful then a P12 (since earth alliance grading stops at strongest human telepaths), using Lyta to grade what your typical B5 telepath is capable of is like taking the strongest force user in existance and assuming you average froce user can do the same things.

She's powerful sure but just how powerful we don't know beyond that's she's above what EA grading extends to, she could be anything from a weak P13 to a strong P20 or above, we just don't know and she's also singular or near so with few if any telepath of similar power level avaible for the younger races.¨

Bester is alot better example as we know how powerfull he is (a strong P12 IIRC) and thus can more easily derive what a typical telepath would be capable of.

Bester too is, incidentally, the grandson of one subject to almost as much Vorlon meddling as Lyta. The first Psi Corps director, Kevin Vacit. But that is a side issue.

Vader has ripped information and knowledge straight out of people's minds.

Nothing a P4 can't do.

He usually prefers to use torture and other interrogation methods to weaken resistance to his mind probing

Something a P4 or 5 need not do to weaken the resistance of a Mundane to a deep scan. There is no possible resistance for a Mundane, outside highly specialized training that only really works against surface scans.

In Death Star it was trivial for him to read a suspected saboteur's mind and conclude that he was in fact innocent (although Vader still executed the poor chap as an example to others)

Trivial for a commercial telepath of P3 or higher.

even a large group of people's general feelings and level of willpower at once (something that the telepaths in B5 are trained against, since they start hearing every thought and it tends to extremely painful for them)

Yeah... it takes effort for B5 telepaths to avoid doing something that is rare for Jedi beyond vague impressions.

To put this in perspective, Bester's background noise is the City of Geneva.

Talia Winters was blocking out at least the local part of the zocolo right before she was kidnapped by Rogue Telepaths in season 2.

In the same book Vader was also confident of his ability to pierce Princess Leia's mental walls given time, but he was worried that he might shred her mind to pieces in the process without learning anything useful.

In the same book Vader was also confident of his ability to pierce Princess Leia's mental walls given time, but he was worried that he might shred her mind to pieces in the process without learning anything useful.

Which makes him no more able to penetrate mental defenses than a low grade commercial telepath, though perhaps without the finesse.

However, it would be unwise for them to try their tricks on the Dark Lord - it would be folly to think that the Sith during their long years of existence wouldn't have developed counter-measures to telepathic traps and spying.

Oh, I am sure they do. Developed for a much lower grade of telepathy. I would not be sanguine about say, a commercial telepath's chances with Vader. They are not trained in attack probes, and they dont have the raw power to brute-force their way past Vader's defenses before he Gallagher's their skull with telekinesis. But one of the Bloodhounds (P8-P11) trained in brute-force scans and attack probes? Oh Yeah. His mind will be laid bare before he can respond. Off he goes into a delusional fugue state, or his mind simply scragged. The sorts of defenses force users put up are, if I remember my comparative telepathy correctly, the sorts of blocks telepaths learn how to put up and break in childhood. Literal childhood. They play a variant of tag/hide and seek that features this sort of thing (of course, childhood in the Psi Corps is a decidedly creepy thing and it was MORE pleasant/normal when Bester was a kid. More on that upon request. Suffice to say, when a [secret]Telepath was director, the Psi Corps existed for the benefit of Telepaths. When he *left* a mundane was put in charge and filled the upper echelons with His Creatures. All of them telepaths who manifested later in life. All of whom with pre-extant political loyalties. You can see where that will go. It was bad. When Bester was a kid, the Corps would experiment on Rogues they brought in, and do selective breeding with polite suggestion and cultural norms. After that...)

Palpatine and Vader have been likened more than once to being "pitch-black inside" or "malevolent shadow", so the dark side -infested mind is not a nice place to be or to spy upon

Eh. Scanning a shadow is likely not much different. And even if it is, so what? The ancillary question was whether Vader would test into the Psi Cops. The answer is no. He also could not resist attack probes in all likelihood.

Vader is also irrelevant when it comes to creating sleeper agents. He cannot be everywhere, and even if he happened across the unknowing saboteur, he would detect nothing.

Yeah Lyta is, quite literally, a mutant. She was engineered by the Vorlons to be a weapon of mass destruction and we only ever see one of her. The PSI Corps' attempt to engineer something higher than a P-12 resulted in Jason Ironheart who was potentially even stronger than Lyta. He could vaporize people with a thought. But aside from those two, the strongest we ever see is a P-12 like Bester. That may be the limit that a human can be naturally.

Not true. There is Vacit (who as of the end of 2260 is still alive, just Ancient and hanging out on the world from which the Vorlons found their stock genetics for telepathy). There is also The Dwarf (no name, IIRC that is how he was credited). He was pushed beyond P-12 by the Corps as well, his original rating is unknown.

They were not trying to create a stronger telepath with Ironheart. They were trying to create stable telekinetics.

"natural" is also a little bit of a silly term for Teeps. The Vorlons first modified humans in the late 21st century, they showed up publicly in the early 22nd century a few decades before contact with the Centauri. When a telepathy experiment using cards (you know the one) done as a joke, and part of academic hazing, actually worked.

[Borgholio]

There is Vacit

Don't recall that one...was he from one of the novels?

There is also The Dwarf

Was he the guy with the wild hair and bit of a lisp who helped talk Talia into working against Bester?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Don't recall that one...was he from one of the novels?

Yes. The very much canon Psi Corps Trilogy, and a couple of JMS's short stories.

Was he the guy with the wild hair and bit of a lisp who helped talk Talia into working against Bester?

That would be the one.

[Borgholio]

Yes. The very much canon Psi Corps Trilogy, and a couple of JMS's short stories.

Gotcha. Not debating the canonical status, just never heard that name before. Thanks!

That would be the one.

Yeah he clearly was up there in the double digits but I don't think he had been officially tested. He said he "might" be a P13, but he ran off before they knew for certain. Given how it took so many of them working together to beat a Psi Cop, I think it can be safe to assume that a strong Force user would have few issues resisting a non-trained telepath...even if they were a P-13.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yes. The very much canon Psi Corps Trilogy, and a couple of JMS's short stories.

Gotcha. Not debating the canonical status, just never heard that name before. Thanks!

That would be the one.

Yeah he clearly was up there in the double digits but I don't think he had been officially tested. He said he "might" be a P13, but he ran off before they knew for certain. Given how it took so many of them working together to beat a Psi Cop, I think it can be safe to assume that a strong Force user would have few issues resisting a non-trained telepath...even if they were a P-13.

He was made at least a P-12.

Psi Cops are trained REALLY hard to resist attempts like that. Getting past his defenses was not the problematic bit. If they wanted to just... blast him, they could have. Said Dwarf could have done it, given enough time (at least theoretically)

Code: Select all

There is a raw power component to telepathic combat, and a skill component.  Kind of like boxing.  The P rating is a measure of raw power, and there are threshold values of it that indicates at what point certain things can be achieved.  Surface scans, deep scans, telepathic jamming etc all have a lower limit in P rating (it takes being a P9 to be able to detect electronic eavesdropping by detecting the non-mind electrical currents for example) at which they are possible/useful.  A P3 might able to Jam, but could not get any sort of useful range out of it.  A P5 can.

Really basic blocks are just building  wall inside your head and trying to keep it up while some clod pounds on it with the sledgehammer of his thoughts.  Or keeping really really focused on something else entirely to block a surface scan.  

Psi Cops dont do that.  They engage in Shaman Battle.  They fight with their imagination as much as with brute force.  They try to take control of the Imago (mental landscape) and force their opponent to fight on their terms. 

A P5... A Psi Cop will just Roflstomp.  Like kicking a puppy.  A P8 requires effort.  It took bester something like half an hour to skrag the mental defenses of someone in the P8-P10 range at one point, but that one had been in the active Resistance for decades, since before his birth.   Much experience.  A P8 commercial teep or untrained Blip (Blips are people who never joined the Corps, Rogues are those who leave the Corps.  It is a distinction they make and int affects how they get treated after capture) would likely be another Roflstomp, because they are just not trained for psychic combat or experienced in it.  They get some basic training so they can have SOME privacy, and for Opsec purposes,but nothing like the intensive training the more martially oriented teeps get.

The issue was getting past his defenses seamlessly, so there would be no evidence of memory alterations after they got through with him. Afterall, if he died, the Corps would come after them. If they mind-wiped him, they could have left evidence or left his personality altered, and the Corps would find out eventually and come after them.

They had to make him believe what he saw, and the only way to do that is to hit him so hard and fast that he did not know he was in a Shaman Battle at all, permitting them to control the Imago.

Vader is... well first off he is not very powerful on the teep scale. It is not exactly comparable, but it is close enough for government work. He is also not trained in combat telepathy. He is trained to about the point of a Minor Academy entrant in the Corps (read: 7th grade)

[Simon_Jester]

[Finds himself wondering where Kimball Kinnison is on the Babylon 5 "P" scale...]

[Ted C]

I can't seem to recall 'any' B5 ship that has a 'massive spinal mount' as their main gun, really, possibly excepting the Vorlon planetkiller.

White Stars

[Alyrium Denryle]

I can't seem to recall 'any' B5 ship that has a 'massive spinal mount' as their main gun, really, possibly excepting the Vorlon planetkiller.

White Stars

Given that it is 1 gun from the main battery of a Sharlin... eh. I would not call it a massive spinal mount. One could. I would not. Granted, it is a fuckoff beam weapon in its own right, but when I think Spinal Mount, I tend to think REALLY big relative to the ship, and unable to fire off axis... which I am pretty sure that thing can. Just not by a whole lot.

[Borgholio]

What about the Victory and Excalibur from Crusades? Their main weapon is a spinal mount super-laser thing.

[Lord Revan]

What about the Victory and Excalibur from Crusades? Their main weapon is a spinal mount super-laser thing.

it's been a while since I saw Crusade but IIRC that weapon was wing mounted, with each wing tip housing an emitter with no emitters housed in the "head" at front of the ship, though it could have funtioned similary to spinal mount, as I can't remember if it had off-axis capability or not.

[Borgholio]

I can't remember if it had off-axis capability or not.

Neither can I. I don't think they ever really showed or mentioned it having that ability.

[Lord Revan]

I can't remember if it had off-axis capability or not.

Neither can I. I don't think they ever really showed or mentioned it having that ability.

I seem to remember them saying that the main gun was essentially the primary weapon from vorlon cruiser mounted on ship with a weaker reactor/power systems (expaining why the ship shuts down when ever the main gun is used), if true then the gun technically would have off axis capability (since vorlon ships have that) but A) I could have remembered in-correctly or B) what compromices they had to make to mount that thing on ship made with EA and minbari tech "removed" the off-axis capability

[Ted C]

I can't seem to recall 'any' B5 ship that has a 'massive spinal mount' as their main gun, really, possibly excepting the Vorlon planetkiller.

White Stars

Given that it is 1 gun from the main battery of a Sharlin... eh. I would not call it a massive spinal mount. One could. I would not. Granted, it is a fuckoff beam weapon in its own right, but when I think Spinal Mount, I tend to think REALLY big relative to the ship, and unable to fire off axis... which I am pretty sure that thing can. Just not by a whole lot.

It is a spinal mount in that it appears to be the only weapon mounted on any capital ship in the series that has a fixed firing axis aligned with the bow of the ship. It appears be be quite large relative to the ship it's installed in, and it packs the firepower of a weapon normally found on a much larger ship.

[Batman]

Um-what, exactly, do you base your judgement of the weapon's size on? I consider myself reasonably familiar with B5 and all I can with any confidence say about that gun is a) it's a beam weapon and b) it emanates from the ship's nose or thereabouts.

[cmdrjones]

Again.... interesting stuff!

I have an additional question that may shoot this thread off into an additional question:

How would tactics like these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_warfare

aid an organization like the Rangers to resist an Imperial occupation? Especially if the Death Squadron has resupply and personnel issues that are likely to arise in an invasion of B5 space?

2nd question: As prevalent as boarding tactics are in the prequel series and in the CW series, how useful would infiltration be to a power like, say, the shadows who could have concievably thousands of Shadow warriors or Drakh that woule be useless against ISDs normally, but if they could infiltrate ISD's then could concievably be a giant pain in the ass at least?

[Simon_Jester]

Basically, the Empire's willingness to just kill everyone makes "fourth generation warfare" tactics dubious at best.

In historical late 20th and early 21st century warfare, most violence involves struggling over control of land, for the sake of an ideology (patriotic anti-colonialism, various political dreams for how to organize a civilization). The ultimate goal is to secure the rule of your brand of law over the area and gradually bring others around to your point of view.

In such a circumstance, using massive genocide and weapons of mass destruction to destroy the people of the area you're fighting over, to "destroy the village in order to save it," makes about as much sense as when Heinlein writing in 1960s said that using fusion bombs in a limited war was like "spanking a baby with an axe." This is as true for the revolutionary guerillas/freedom fighters/terrorists/whatever as it is for the armies they are fighting. Sometimes, an entire class of people will be wiped out as 'undesirables' in the violently radical vision of a violently radical group... but the fourth generation warrior gets no points for exterminating the people of entire regions.

Even if such tactics don't bother me due to a severe lack of conscience in my brain... I don't win that way, and if that's what I have to do to succeed in a conflict, the conflict is pointless for me.

The Empire, on the other hand, has a history of destroying one village in order to intimidate several dozen others into obeying. Death Squadron must conquer or die, because it needs an industrial support base to remain powerful enough to fend off threats to its existence. But it is massively outnumbered and is, in effect, "an army without a state." So to conquer, it will find itself forced to imitate Cortez, by using lopsided combat power to destroy anyone who stands between it and power, while forming alliances of convenience with local power blocs.

Resistance is more likely to get you obliterated from orbit along with your ten thousand closest friends and innocent bystanders than it is to result in drawing the enemy into a costly guerilla war against you.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The Empire, on the other hand, has a history of destroying one village in order to intimidate several dozen others into obeying. Death Squadron must conquer or die, because it needs an industrial support base to remain powerful enough to fend off threats to its existence. But it is massively outnumbered and is, in effect, "an army without a state." So to conquer, it will find itself forced to imitate Cortez, by using lopsided combat power to destroy anyone who stands between it and power, while forming alliances of convenience with local power blocs.

True, but if this is just a fleet with no support base, they cannot take the horrific destruction too far. They cannot afford to destroy industrial worlds like that, because they need all those worlds to even have a prayer of maintaining their ships. They can killfuck outlying worlds, but this is the B5 universe. We've seen what happens when planets get skragged. It pisses people off.

[FaxModem1]

Consider the galaxy's reaction to the bombing of Narn. They politically condemned it, but did they all rally around the Narn to fend off the invading Centauri? No, Earth made a quick non-aggression pact, the Minbari stayed neutral, the Vorlons did nothing, and the League of Non-aligned worlds got gobbled up one by one until the Shadows attacked openly. If the Galactic Empire starts bombing worlds, they'll probably have the same reaction and avoid the Empire, or at most, say nasty things about them in open forums, but do nothing else, for fear of earning the Empire's wrath.

[Borgholio]

I think Earth would be quick to offer them shelter. Remember that the EA has been desperate to gather as much advanced tech as they could after the Minbari War. Now suddenly a fleet of ships crewed by humans shows up, carrying tech that outclasses even the Vorlons. The EA would sell their proverbial left arm to get their hands on some of that.

[cmdrjones]

I think Earth would be quick to offer them shelter. Remember that the EA has been desperate to gather as much advanced tech as they could after the Minbari War. Now suddenly a fleet of ships crewed by humans shows up, carrying tech that outclasses even the Vorlons. The EA would sell their proverbial left arm to get their hands on some of that.

True, but if this is just a fleet with no support base, they cannot take the horrific destruction too far. They cannot afford to destroy industrial worlds like that, because they need all those worlds to even have a prayer of maintaining their ships. They can killfuck outlying worlds, but this is the B5 universe. We've seen what happens when planets get skragged. It pisses people off.

This is true.... BUT Earth has significant shadow influences starting early in the Timeline.... the general consensus has been that while Vader probably won't LIKE the Vorlons, he ascribes to their philosophy of order much more closely than the Shadows' philosophy of progress by Chaos.

The industrial base is a big problem for Death Squadron.... they have to use a goldilocks approach with destruction.... I should clarfiy as to 4th Gen warfare.... I meant after the Imperials have taken a significant chunk of the galaxy.
I see the scenario developing in several stages:

#1 Imperials arrive and conduct basic threat assessments and intel gathering
#2 Decide on COA
#3 seize territory to establish an industrial base
#4 various YR powers react; fighting ensues
#5 B5 forces lose hard
#6? Death Squadron takes more territory than it can safely administer
#7? Vorlons and Shadows react and war escalates
#8? at some point BOTH sides realize that their SOPs with regards to each other don't work they way they thought they would, and both adapt to the new situation. The Imperials by seeking allies, and the B5 powers by beginning a campaign to destabilize the Imperial holdings through whatever means necessary.

[Borgholio]

This is true.... BUT Earth has significant shadow influences starting early in the Timeline.... the general consensus has been that while Vader probably won't LIKE the Vorlons, he ascribes to their philosophy of order much more closely than the Shadows' philosophy of progress by Chaos.

Shadow INFLUENCE, yes. But that's all. The Shadows' grip on Earth are pretty much based on Clark. Get rid of him and their plan falls apart. Vader could secure Earth's loyalty and remove a few threats to the Death Squadron by killing Clark and Morden, taking out the Psi Corps, giving advanced (by B-5 standards) tech to the EA Navy, and offering to defend Earth from any other alien invasions. In exchange, Earth will give him raw materials, a world of their own to set up as a base, and intelligence on everything that's happening in the B5-verse.

#1 Imperials arrive and conduct basic threat assessments and intel gathering
#2 Decide on COA
#3 seize territory to establish an industrial base
#4 various YR powers react; fighting ensues
#5 B5 forces lose hard
#6? Death Squadron takes more territory than it can safely administer
#7? Vorlons and Shadows react and war escalates
#8? at some point BOTH sides realize that their SOPs with regards to each other don't work they way they thought they would, and both adapt to the new situation. The Imperials by seeking allies, and the B5 powers by beginning a campaign to destabilize the Imperial holdings through whatever means necessary.

I think that once the Imperial forces have finished their recon, it's more likely they'll ally with Earth rather than immediately start fighting. Vader and Piett aren't idiots. They would know they need a support structure in place. The most likely start of the conflict would be a preemptive strike by either the Vorlons, Shadows, or any of the younger races that got nervous about the EA / Empire alliance. I can see the Centauri doing something like that, since they are much more tightly controlled by the Shadows than Earth was at that point. Actually, that would be the best way for the Empire to gain territory. Use Earth as a puppet and take advantage of the their anti-alien fears to grab territory using the tech that was given by the Empire.

[cmdrjones]

This is true.... BUT Earth has significant shadow influences starting early in the Timeline.... the general consensus has been that while Vader probably won't LIKE the Vorlons, he ascribes to their philosophy of order much more closely than the Shadows' philosophy of progress by Chaos.

Shadow INFLUENCE, yes. But that's all. The Shadows' grip on Earth are pretty much based on Clark. Get rid of him and their plan falls apart. Vader could secure Earth's loyalty and remove a few threats to the Death Squadron by killing Clark and Morden, taking out the Psi Corps, giving advanced (by B-5 standards) tech to the EA Navy, and offering to defend Earth from any other alien invasions. In exchange, Earth will give him raw materials, a world of their own to set up as a base, and intelligence on everything that's happening in the B5-verse.

#1 Imperials arrive and conduct basic threat assessments and intel gathering
#2 Decide on COA
#3 seize territory to establish an industrial base
#4 various YR powers react; fighting ensues
#5 B5 forces lose hard
#6? Death Squadron takes more territory than it can safely administer
#7? Vorlons and Shadows react and war escalates
#8? at some point BOTH sides realize that their SOPs with regards to each other don't work they way they thought they would, and both adapt to the new situation. The Imperials by seeking allies, and the B5 powers by beginning a campaign to destabilize the Imperial holdings through whatever means necessary.

I think that once the Imperial forces have finished their recon, it's more likely they'll ally with Earth rather than immediately start fighting. Vader and Piett aren't idiots. They would know they need a support structure in place. The most likely start of the conflict would be a preemptive strike by either the Vorlons, Shadows, or any of the younger races that got nervous about the EA / Empire alliance. I can see the Centauri doing something like that, since they are much more tightly controlled by the Shadows than Earth was at that point. Actually, that would be the best way for the Empire to gain territory. Use Earth as a puppet and take advantage of the their anti-alien fears to grab territory using the tech that was given by the Empire.

The only thing holding that scenario back is the level of control of Clark and the ability of the Imperials to recognize shadow influence when they see it and correctly ID the clark regime as the problem. With the Psi Corps on clarks side (at least at the beginning) I have serious doubts that the Imperials won't be operating off of whatever information the Clark regime WANTS them to have, at least at first. The Psi Corps and the Clark regime weren't arm in arm, being that you had anti psychic factions, Home guard, and Morden & co all active on Earth at the beginning of the series. heck, the psi corps had been rounding up blips for the Shadows without even realizing what they were ultimately to be used for! Sorting that all out tot eh Imperials favor will require a light touch... not something Vader is known for. They may end up burning Earth down to save it if they are not careful.... hence the drama i'm looking for!