Legend of Korra Book 4 Talkback - "Balance" (Spoilers)

[Joun_Lord]

It was shopped. The Korrasami kiss gif was made by a fan.

I thought as much. The ladies sucking face was right beside pictures of two dudes smacking lips and Korra kissing herself, none of which I could see on even a more adult oriented Nick show. Kind of a double standard to show boy and girls playing facehugger with each other but won't show same sex but like I said the hell that would bring probably isn't worth it to Nick.

[Mr Bean]

It feels like a good end point for Korra's story. The Earth Kingdom transitioning to democracy isn't likely to be interesting to watch and the spirits just hang around for the most part. There is a lot of potential for stories involving the next Avatar. Though the biggest hurdle there is Nickelodeon. Them not promoting season three then shifting it to online only says it was a series they didn't know what to do with. The short break between season 3 and 4, along with the budget reduction, doesn't make sense unless Nickelodeon was having some financial problems.

Speaking of news or rather non news but dreams but there's already a Save Last Airbender movement building minor steam. The idea is to sell Amazon on picking up the rights to Last Airbender and producing a new show that way. If Nickelodeon is having issues and Amazon wants more Prime memebers why not sell subscriptions the same way Netflix did by producing new arrested development? The team has not yet scattered to the winds nor has Nickelodeon downsized the entire department yet so it's an interesting idea.

Interesting enough I don't expect anything to come of it but what an odd world we live in.

[bilateralrope]

Are they targeting Amazon as the only possibility, or just as the one they view as most likely ?

It was shopped. The Korrasami kiss gif was made by a fan.

I thought as much. The ladies sucking face was right beside pictures of two dudes smacking lips and Korra kissing herself, none of which I could see on even a more adult oriented Nick show. Kind of a double standard to show boy and girls playing facehugger with each other but won't show same sex but like I said the hell that would bring probably isn't worth it to Nick.

We don't know who made that decision.

A backlash like that could probably be handled to benefit Nickelodeon . Especially when Korra is only airing online. Plus I get the feeling that the only reason the Earth Queen's death got through was because Nickelodeon was taking a rather hands off approach with Korra.


It could have been a decision from the writers. For example, deciding that a society that had a major problem with discrimination between benders and non-benders only a few years previously would not have anywhere near a modern attitude towards homosexuality.

[Formless]

Korrasami was subtle enough that I don't see it as the only interpretation of what we saw on screen. On that note, do we know anything about how homosexuality is viewed in the Avatarverse?

Nope. Part of the appeal of Korra/Asami from what I understand is that the writers merely wanted to explore the topic and any mention of homosexuality was taken off the table. My personal interpretation is that the hints they did drop and the ending were a deliberate middle finger to whomever told them "no". Admittedly, self censorship is the most sinister form of prejudice I can think of.

I'm still going to wait for either an interview with the writers or a continuation of the story in some format like a comic series or movie befor taking alternative interpretations of Korra's relationship off the table entirely. I see too many shippers calling people delusional or in denial on other forums, and its incredibly arrogant douchbaggery.

It could have been a decision from the writers. For example, deciding that a society that had a major problem with discrimination between benders and non-benders only a few years previously would not have anywhere near a modern attitude towards homosexuality.

Not to mention the Northern Water Tribe's attitudes towards women in the first series.

So, yeah, bisexual or gay. I'm inclined to think "bisexual", since both Korra and Asami did seem genuinely attracted to Mako while the relationships were still on-going in seasons 1 and 2.

I agree. It makes their friendship with Mako more interesting if they both dumped him for exactly the reasons we saw (his poor relationship skills) than if they simply didn't feel attracted to him.

[Guardsman Bass]

The Northern Water Tribe's attitudes towards women always felt like a misfire in the original series. It comes up, Gets Solved, and then we never hear about it again - and never see any indication of sexism among benders or the broader populace after season 1. I chalk it up to the show still being early in and getting its world-building all figured out.

This is pure speculation, but I tend to think the setting's view on homosexuality would be somewhat similar to other pre-modern societies where homosexual acts per se were not considered immoral. Homosexual relationships would be tolerated, although exclusively homosexual relationships or homosexual marriage would be heavily frowned upon/opposed (especially if they led to a politically important heir not producing any offspring). East Asia and particularly pre-modern China had relatively benign views of homosexuality, and the show draws its influence from East and Southeast Asia.

I agree. It makes their friendship with Mako more interesting if they both dumped him for exactly the reasons we saw (his poor relationship skills) than if they simply didn't feel attracted to him.

It would have been nice if they had explored that more. A:TLA and Season 1 of LoK had some good "slow-down" episodes where we get to see the characters fleshed out more without them being constantly dragged along by the main plot, but that was much less prominent in the later seasons of LoK.

[Formless]

The Northern Water Tribe's attitudes towards women always felt like a misfire in the original series. It comes up, Gets Solved, and then we never hear about it again - and never see any indication of sexism among benders or the broader populace after season 1. I chalk it up to the show still being early in and getting its world-building all figured out.

Well, they did have Sokka display a lot of the same sexism at first and have to eat crow as a part of his character development. But then, we stopped dealing with Northerners for most of the story after that, and we saw the South was slightly less condescending to female water benders.

But yeah, it does feel like one of those things that ended up in the show as standard children's cartoon moralizing. Much like Aang's refusal to kill, but less plot relevant or thematically powerful.

[Guardsman Bass]

Michael Dante DeMartino has confirmed on his tumblr blog that Korrasami is real:

. . . . .

Our intention with the last scene was to make it as clear as possible that yes, Korra and Asami have romantic feelings for each other. The moment where they enter the spirit portal symbolizes their evolution from being friends to being a couple. Many news outlets, bloggers, and fans picked up on this and didn’t find it ambiguous. For the most part, it seems like the point of the scene was understood and additional commentary wasn’t really needed from Bryan or me. But in case people were still questioning what happened in the last scene, I wanted to make a clear verbal statement to complement the show’s visual one. I get that not everyone will be happy with the way that the show ended. Rarely does a series finale of any show satisfy that show’s fans, so I’ve been pleasantly surprised with the positive articles and posts I’ve seen about Korra’s finale.

. . . .

I've always liked that they were willing to address issues like this, and talk openly about what their intent was with scenes and character arcs. I remember them openly talking about Kataang and the Zutara fans on the DVD commentaries for A:TLA.

EDIT: Bryan Konietzko has also confirmed it on his blog. I'm quoting the whole thing, because he goes into a lot of detail about the process that led to it:

Korrasami is canon.

You can celebrate it, embrace it, accept it, get over it, or whatever you feel the need to do, but there is no denying it. That is the official story. We received some wonderful press in the wake of the series finale at the end of last week, and just about every piece I read got it right: Korra and Asami fell in love. Were they friends? Yes, and they still are, but they also grew to have romantic feelings for each other.

Was Korrasami “endgame,” meaning, did we plan it from the start of the series? No, but nothing other than Korra’s spiritual arc was. Asami was a duplicitous spy when Mike and I first conceived her character. Then we liked her too much so we reworked the story to keep her in the dark regarding her father’s villainous activities. Varrick and Zhu Li weren’t originally planned to end up as a couple either, but that’s where we took the story/where the story took us. That’s how writing works the vast majority of the time. You give these characters life and then they tell you what they want to do.

I have bragging rights as the first Korrasami shipper (I win!). As we wrote Book 1, before the audience had ever laid eyes on Korra and Asami, it was an idea I would kick around the writers’ room. At first we didn’t give it much weight, not because we think same-sex relationships are a joke, but because we never assumed it was something we would ever get away with depicting on an animated show for a kids network in this day and age, or at least in 2010.

Makorra was only “endgame” as far as the end of Book 1. Once we got into Book 2 we knew we were going to have them break up, and we never planned on getting them back together. Sorry, friends. I like Mako too, and I am sure he will be just fine in the romance department. He grew up and learned about himself through his relationships with Asami and Korra, and he’s a better person for it, and he’ll be a better partner for whomever he ends up with.

Once Mako and Korra were through, we focused on developing Korra and Asami’s relationship. Originally, it was primarily intended to be a strong friendship. Frankly, we wanted to set most of the romance business aside for the last two seasons. Personally, at that point I didn’t want Korra to have to end up with someone at the end of series. We obviously did it in Avatar, but even that felt a bit forced to me. I’m usually rolling my eyes when that happens in virtually every action film, “Here we go again…” It was probably around that time that I came across this quote from Hayao Miyazaki:

“I’ve become skeptical of the unwritten rule that just because a boy and girl appear in the same feature, a romance must ensue. Rather, I want to portray a slightly different relationship, one where the two mutually inspire each other to live - if I’m able to, then perhaps I’ll be closer to portraying a true expression of love.”

I agree with him wholeheartedly, especially since the majority of the examples in media portray a female character that is little more than a trophy to be won by the male lead for his derring-do. So Mako and Korra break the typical pattern and end up respecting, admiring, and inspiring each other. That is a resolution I am proud of.

However, I think there needs to be a counterpart to Miyazaki’s sentiment: Just because two characters of the same sex appear in the same story, it should not preclude the possibility of a romance between them. No, not everyone is queer, but the other side of that coin is that not everyone is straight. The more Korra and Asami’s relationship progressed, the more the idea of a romance between them organically blossomed for us. However, we still operated under this notion, another “unwritten rule,” that we would not be allowed to depict that in our show. So we alluded to it throughout the second half of the series, working in the idea that their trajectory could be heading towards a romance.

But as we got close to finishing the finale, the thought struck me: How do I know we can’t openly depict that? No one ever explicitly said so. It was just another assumption based on a paradigm that marginalizes non-heterosexual people. If we want to see that paradigm evolve, we need to take a stand against it. And I didn’t want to look back in 20 years and think, “Man, we could have fought harder for that.” Mike and I talked it over and decided it was important to be unambiguous about the intended relationship.

We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced. It was originally written in the script over a year ago that Korra and Asami held hands as they walked into the spirit portal. We went back and forth on it in the storyboards, but later in the retake process I staged a revision where they turned towards each other, clasping both hands in a reverential manner, in a direct reference to Varrick and Zhu Li’s nuptial pose from a few minutes prior. We asked Jeremy Zuckerman to make the music tender and romantic, and he fulfilled the assignment with a sublime score. I think the entire last two-minute sequence with Korra and Asami turned out beautiful, and again, it is a resolution of which I am very proud. I love how their relationship arc took its time, through kindness and caring. If it seems out of the blue to you, I think a second viewing of the last two seasons would show that perhaps you were looking at it only through a hetero lens.

Was it a slam-dunk victory for queer representation? I think it falls short of that, but hopefully it is a somewhat significant inching forward. It has been encouraging how well the media and the bulk of the fans have embraced it. Sadly and unsurprisingly, there are also plenty of people who have lashed out with homophobic vitriol and nonsense. It has been my experience that by and large this kind of mindset is a result of a lack of exposure to people whose lives and struggles are different from one’s own, and due to a deficiency in empathy––the latter being a key theme in Book 4. (Despite what you might have heard, bisexual people are real!) I have held plenty of stupid notions throughout my life that were planted there in any number of ways, or even grown out of my own ignorance and flawed personality. Yet through getting to know people from all walks of life, listening to the stories of their experiences, and employing some empathy to try to imagine what it might be like to walk in their shoes, I have been able to shed many hurtful mindsets. I still have a long way to go, and I still have a lot to learn. It is a humbling process and hard work, but nothing on the scale of what anyone who has been marginalized has experienced. It is a worthwhile, lifelong endeavor to try to understand where people are coming from.

There is the inevitable reaction, “Mike and Bryan just caved in to the fans.” Well, which fans? There were plenty of Makorra shippers out there, so if we had gone back on our decision and gotten those characters back together, would that have meant we caved in to those fans instead? Either direction we went, there would inevitably be a faction that was elated and another that was devastated. Trust me, I remember Kataang vs. Zutara. But one of those directions is going to be the one that feels right to us, and Mike and I have always made both Avatar and Korra for us, first and foremost. We are lucky that so many other people around the world connect with these series as well. Tahno playing trombone––now that was us caving in to the fans!

But this particular decision wasn’t only done for us. We did it for all our queer friends, family, and colleagues. It is long over due that our media (including children’s media) stops treating non-heterosexual people as nonexistent, or as something merely to be mocked. I’m only sorry it took us so long to have this kind of representation in one of our stories.

I’ll wrap this up with some incredible words that Mike and I received in a message from a former Korra crew member. He is a deeply religious person who devotes much of his time and energy not only to his faith, but also to helping young people. He and I may have starkly different belief systems, but it is heartwarming and encouraging that on this issue we are aligned in a positive, progressive direction:

“I’ve read enough reviews to get a sense of how it affected people. One very well-written article in Vanity Fair called it subversive (in a good way, of course)… I would say a better word might be “healing.” I think your finale was healing for a lot of people who feel outside or on the fringes, or that their love and their journey is somehow less real or valuable than someone else’s… That it’s somehow less valid. I know quite a few people in that position, who have a lifetime of that on their shoulders, and in one episode of television you both relieved and validated them. That’s healing in my book.”

[Lord Relvenous]

I honestly don't see how there was much ambiguity. The ending sequence was shot for shot what a show would do for a "traditional" male and female couple going off into the world together, except they'd maybe have them kiss as they go through the portal (though this was more natural, as it's the beginning of a romance). I'm impressed that they decided to do it and handled it well considering the channel it was on and the medium. This season was quite good, and its emotional sincerity is a big part of that.

Also, Tahno playing the trombone got a full belly laugh.

[Lord Revan]

I honestly don't see how there was much ambiguity. The ending sequence was shot for shot what a show would do for a "traditional" male and female couple going off into the world together

that might ironically be part of it, generally when in our media depicts homosexual couples it's beaten into your head with a sudtlety of nuclear warhead that they're a homosexual couple more often then not using (semi-)offensive stereotypes where as with Korra and Asami they were treated like any other couple who just happen to both be women, quite frankly I can remember only 1 other example where this was done in western films or TV.

EDIT:just to clarify I don't mind that it was done this way, in fact I like that it was done this way, but we all must admit that western (especially US) media isn't know for sudtlety when it comes to things like sexual minorities.

[bilateralrope]

The difficulty with trying to count how many subtle homosexual couples you've seen on TV from memory is that the subtle instances are easily missed and/or forgotten. Especially when one character in the relationship isn't likely to ever appear on screen.

[Formless]

Actually, I would say that the real problem is that most television and cinema relationships are beaten into the audience's heads with all the subtlety of a mace to the skull, and the issues interpreting the scene for some people is a natural consequence of that trend. Notice for instance that when Avatar: the Last Airbender ended, Aang and Katara got to kiss? While its obviously a double standard that Korra and Asami didn't get to do the same due to Nick, its also true that needing to show a kiss implies you (the animator) think the audience is extremely immature or slow on the uptake. Which, well...

...is probably true to a degree, because when "they have to kiss" becomes the normal way of sealing a romance onscreen, then alternative interpretations are inevitable and understandable. In this case they decided to establish a visual motif other than kissing as a sign of romance, and they also use embracing in Avatar quite liberally in non-romantic contexts (so that's out). I think its not totally Avatar's fault that people have come to expect hamfisted displays, and I've also heard it said by some women that the displays they chose aren't necessarily that unprecedented for totally strait (albeit close) female friends. The test proposed of "see if you can hold a friend's hand and look them in the eye" is something that some people can pass without blinking. Are they wrong to interpret the scene in the lens of their own life and reading of body language? I don't think so. That's why it takes a lot of work to remove ambiguity without losing maturity. And most writers aren't practiced at that, especially in television.

Its interesting to read Konietzko's post about it; it confirms some things I had suspected about the general writing process for Avatar that are useful to know, not just the romance issue.

[Lord Relvenous]

Actually, I would say that the real problem is that most television and cinema relationships are beaten into the audience's heads with all the subtlety of a mace to the skull, and the issues interpreting the scene for some people is a natural consequence of that trend. Notice for instance that when Avatar: the Last Airbender ended, Aang and Katara got to kiss? While its obviously a double standard that Korra and Asami didn't get to do the same due to Nick, its also true that needing to show a kiss implies you (the animator) think the audience is extremely immature or slow on the uptake. Which, well...

...is probably true to a degee, because when "they have to kiss" becomes the normal way of sealing a romance onscreen, then alternative interpretations are inevitable and understandable. In this case they decided to establish a visual motif other than kissing as a sign of romance, and they also use embracing in Avatar quite liberally in non-romantic contexts (so that's out). I think its not totally Avatar's fault that people have come to expect hamfisted displays, and I've also heard it said by some women that the displays they chose aren't necessarily that unprecedented for totally strait (albeit close) female friends. The test proposed of "see if you can hold a friend's hand and look them in the eye" is something that some people can pass without blinking. Are they wrong to interpret the scene in the lens of their own life and reading of body language? I don't think so. That's why it takes a lot of work to remove ambiguity without losing maturity. And most writers aren't practiced at that, especially in television.

Its interesting to read Konietzko's post about it; it confirms some things I had suspected about the general writing process for Avatar that are useful to know, not just the romance issue.

The clasping of hands while facing each other isn't just a body language thing. It's explicitly shown as the stance which a couple assumed when getting married. Literally no more than 7 minutes before, Zhu Lee and Varrok get married clasping each others' hands in the exact same pose as Korra and Asami. The scene showed them elope, essentially. While the pose has been used for non-marriage purposes in other episode, they were all in a romantic manner, and it's not an accident they showed a marriage incorporating it before that scene.

The show creators tried to make it as obvious as they could.

[Formless]

You missed the point. They had to establish that motif deliberately, when they were not allowed to use a far, far more common visual shorthand that the previous, heterosexual male Avatar was allowed to be shown doing with his eventual wife, AND which both Korra and Assami were allowed to do when they were in their relationships with Mako. It takes more faith in the audience to notice that the ending scene mirrors the marriage scene because the marriage scene also included a kiss and followed all the traditions of a European style wedding (which I might add felt somewhat odd given the oriental setting, but that again shows the strength of TV storytelling conventions). And it takes a good memory to notice that there are four couples shown in this pose over the course of the series. Hell, when I originally saw the ending, I assumed that the two of them were implied to have kissed and the network insisted they crop it, that's how common it is in TV for romance to be confirmed with a kiss rather than an after the fact blog post about the subject. Then I remembered that the network might have wanted it to be ambiguous, hence why I waited for the inevitable response by the creators. That's why I think it is understandable that people didn't necessarily conclude that the two were in love, because expectations are strongly shaped by the conventions of television.

[Steve]

At least this thread has avoided the flame wars over on SB and SV between the jubilant Korrasami supporters and naysayers who generally drifted from "friends can do that too, it's not proof" to "the writers came up with it out of thin air and it sucked", and with all of the fiery rage from both sides you can expect.

[Darksider]

Apparently shipping is serious business in the Avatar fandom.

[Steve]

Throw in the "I hate shipping" part of the fandom who see the ending as "pandering to shippers" with "no buildup".

[Darksider]

Throw in the "I hate shipping" part of the fandom who see the ending as "pandering to shippers" with "no buildup".

To be fair I was almost in that camp until the writers confirmed it was their intent all along. Honestly I was pretty busy with work and school while this season was airing, so I missed some of the build-up to Korrasami becoming official, and the bits I did see seemed like deliberate attempts to screw with shippers, because lets face it, there's a history of that.

Once the writers made their announcement I went back and watched some of the character moments from the season more closely and I could see what they were doing.

[Steve]

There are people who are still arguing that it was "pandering to shippers"/"pandering to SJW causes", etc.

[Formless]

Oh, I still hate shippers. In all fandoms. Precisely because of what Darksider said. It is Serious Business to them: no one can be allowed or was allowed before the end an alternative opinion else they get all of the condescension in the world thrown at them; and because of that it seems like the last two seconds of the episode is all anyone is talking about. Nothing about the battle with the colossus, nothing about Korra's confession to Kuvira about seeing herself in the tyrant, nothing about the visible effect of the budget cuts, little about the weaknesses of this season like the fact that Kuvira could have been fleshed out much better (especially if we didn't need to have a clip show so near the end), nothing about the legacy of the franchise. Just about how Korra is apparently bisexual and whether this was forced or "subversive". Hell, "death of the author" means you can still have alternative interpretations, that's why it is bad to have to confirm canon issues offscreen. But no one is allowed to do that anymore, because again, canon bullshit and douchbaggery is the norm with shippers. *sigh*

So yeah. Its cool and all to have Korra and Asami in a relationship, and I hope there will be more Avatar in comics, video games, or film where we get to see more of it (preferably without Nick's prudishness getting in the way), but I have already become weary with the shipping discussion. Can we please talk about something else? We got the statement from the creators already, so unless anyone here has the balls to make "death of the author" arguments, I would think its rather moot now.

[mr friendly guy]

The way you guys describe Shippers, makes me think its not even worth it having love triangles or romantic tension between the characters, for fear of fan backlash.

[Guardsman Bass]

I dislike shipping, not love triangles or romantic tension.

[Mr Bean]

I dislike shipping, not love triangles or romantic tension.

Love rhombus, gotta have at least a love rhombus if not a love dodecahedron.

[Formless]

I dislike shipping, not love triangles or romantic tension.

Exactly. Shipping is an activity fans engage in, oftentimes without any pretense that the relationship is at all canon. Sometimes there is even a crossover element to it. Love triangles and romantic tension are just parts of story that help make the audience engage or become invested or serve the plot. They need to be distinguished from one another. There will always be shippers, like it or not; but they can choose not to be obnoxious.

Although that said, a lot of times it is used as a marketing ploy to draw shippers to the show. See season 1.

[Lord Revan]

the worst kind of shippers are those who are so obsessed with their chosen ship that they will radically change/re-interpet the personalities of canon characters so that their chosen ship is the only viable option, that kind of zealotry is what I dislike.

as for romantic relationships/tension, if they happen organically from the direction where the story is going I see no problem with them, it's only when that is inserted to the story forcefully and doesn't seem to come out of the characters but the writer's desire for conflict and/or romance.

[Steve]

Like anything it can be taken to extremes.