Star Wars VII - Trailer Discussion

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. Also, the Jedi have thousands of years of history (even ignoring EU, there's still Obi-Wan's remarks in Episode IV) during which time they were presumably (mostly) fighting the good fight. In which case they have a place in the history books stretching back into the era when history fades into mythology.

Even 20-30 years of fighting that via propaganda and censorship isn't going to be enough to change the way everyone thinks.

The closest analogy I can think of is the Soviet Union's efforts to erase from memory the Russian Orthodox Church- which failed. The Soviets never reached the point where they could actually make the majority of their citizens actively hostile to the Church. As soon as the Soviet power structure disappeared, the Church rebounded to a position of political power in a decade or less.

[Adam Reynolds]

The closest analogy I can think of is the Soviet Union's efforts to erase from memory the Russian Orthodox Church- which failed. The Soviets never reached the point where they could actually make the majority of their citizens actively hostile to the Church. As soon as the Soviet power structure disappeared, the Church rebounded to a position of political power in a decade or less.

Han Solo and the various Imperial officers shown in ANH seem to show that it was at least somewhat successful. While the Rebels did repeatedly reference the Force, they seemed a small minority in the galaxy.

However, Imperial officers would naturally state the orthodoxy, whether they believed it or not. As for Han Solo, he was a smuggler who came to prominence in the era of the fallen Jedi and would presumably thus believe that it was all nothing. Older criminals who had survived the fall of the Republic would likely support such ideas, feeling that the vaunted Force was "simple tricks and nonsense."

[Ziggy Stardust]

Han Solo and the various Imperial officers shown in ANH seem to show that it was at least somewhat successful. While the Rebels did repeatedly reference the Force, they seemed a small minority in the galaxy.

However, Imperial officers would naturally state the orthodoxy, whether they believed it or not. As for Han Solo, he was a smuggler who came to prominence in the era of the fallen Jedi and would presumably thus believe that it was all nothing. Older criminals who had survived the fall of the Republic would likely support such ideas, feeling that the vaunted Force was "simple tricks and nonsense."

Depending on how much faith you want to put into the EU, I dimly recall a scene in one of the Rogue Squadron (or Wraith Squadron) series of books that involved a few of the characters visiting Coruscant in cognito when it was still under Imperial control (post-Yavin). There is a scene in which they visit what is essentially the Imperial History Museum, and it makes no reference to the Force (or the Emperor/Darth Vader being Force users). Granted, this is still just a manifestation of Imperial propaganda, but the impression I get is that, in the minds of the general public, the Force/Jedi are at least pseudo-mythical in some capacity.

[Simon_Jester]

Put this way... I never really bought that part. I can get the idea that true-believer "Party men" who are firmly loyal to and dependent on Palpatine's regime may come to believe his party line about the Jedi. But it feels... implausible that the entire mass of the galactic public could be turned around from seeing the Jedi as somewhat feared and thoroughly respected historical figures, whose contemporary membership is praised in the media (see the novelizations of the prequel) to being a myth.

[Irbis]

Yeah. Also, the Jedi have thousands of years of history (even ignoring EU, there's still Obi-Wan's remarks in Episode IV) during which time they were presumably (mostly) fighting the good fight. In which case they have a place in the history books stretching back into the era when history fades into mythology.

Even 20-30 years of fighting that via propaganda and censorship isn't going to be enough to change the way everyone thinks.

The closest analogy I can think of is the Soviet Union's efforts to erase from memory the Russian Orthodox Church- which failed. The Soviets never reached the point where they could actually make the majority of their citizens actively hostile to the Church. As soon as the Soviet power structure disappeared, the Church rebounded to a position of political power in a decade or less.

One, we have thousands of years of history of organized LGBT-phobia including that by very respected figures. Positive view (that haters still call propaganda) is about last 20-30 years - tell me, did way people think changed or not?

Two, Russian Orthodox Church is best counter-example. Membership in it rose from 30% in 1991 to 75% today. You can say two decades of pro-Church propaganda completely remodelled the society. And yes, Soviets didn't manage to combat Church that much because Russia was very conservative. Czech republic under Soviets went from 70% catholic, 10% atheist in 40s to 80% non-religious, 10% catholic (and very lukewarm Catholic at that) today, after some religious rebound in last 2 decades.

Put this way... I never really bought that part. I can get the idea that true-believer "Party men" who are firmly loyal to and dependent on Palpatine's regime may come to believe his party line about the Jedi. But it feels... implausible that the entire mass of the galactic public could be turned around from seeing the Jedi as somewhat feared and thoroughly respected historical figures, whose contemporary membership is praised in the media (see the novelizations of the prequel) to being a myth.

Novelizations state 10.000 Jedi. That's one Jedi per 100 major worlds, closer to 10.000 worlds if we count minor planets/colonies and the fact big group was always based at Coruscant. Seeing? More like not-seeing.

[Gaidin]

Novelizations state 10.000 Jedi. That's one Jedi per 100 major worlds, closer to 10.000 worlds if we count minor planets/colonies and the fact big group was always based at Coruscant. Seeing? More like not-seeing.

Sounds like they were something you usually had to see to believe. And given the political structure of the Galaxy, the easiest place to do that would be Coruscant, and thus the only place that would need concerted propaganda would thus be Coruscant. It almost seems the rest would sort of handle itself.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's worth remembering too that everything Palpatine said in his big speech to the Senate about the JEdi planning to overthrow the Senate and assume control was true, he just didn't mention that they would do it because Palpatine was actually Darth Sidious.

So not only do you have 30 years of propoganda painting (mostly truthfully) the Jedi as orchestrating a coup, but you also have the CLone Wars being started by the Jedi (rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin) and the menace being led by a former Jedi. With Force-users beign so rare and Imperial propoganda being so effective, I can easily see most people buying the party line. Especially as, like I said, a good chunk of it is true, from a vertain point of view.

[Simon_Jester]

The question is, which line of propaganda:

"The Jedi betrayed the Republic" is one line; "the Jedi were a bunch of frauds with no supernatural powers" is another.

We see evidence in the original trilogy that some people have bought into the "bunch of frauds" party line. We don't see much evidence of anyone thinking the Jedi betrayed the Republic, or were evil.

And yet the "bunch of frauds" party line is exactly the one people are most likely to be divided on. It's relatively easy to convince people of the Jedi coup attempt; selected highlights from the security cameras would do the trick. It's harder to convince people the Jedi were never even significant, that they just happen to be frauds who somehow can charge into a gunfight waving a glowing sword and come out alive. The only people we see who promote this view are Imperial officers and Han. Imperial officers are likely to be fanatical devotees of the party line. And a smuggler who would have been a child during the Clone Wars and who has natural suspicious and anti-authoritarian streaks as strong as Han's is very likely to buy into conspiracy theories about how unknown things are fake, even theories that are not accepted by the public as a whole.

Remember, Han says "that's impossible" very often in the series... and is often wrong.

One, we have thousands of years of history of organized LGBT-phobia including that by very respected figures. Positive view (that haters still call propaganda) is about last 20-30 years - tell me, did way people think changed or not?

It is easier to convince people "do not persecute this person" than to convince them "everything written in a history book prior to twenty years ago is a lie."

Can you convince some people of it? Yes. Can you convince all people of it? Maybe, in a totalitarian society where the state has absolute, finely coordinated control of all media and has a secret police presence in every social gathering...

But the Empire just isn't that pervasive; if it was the Rebellion as we know it could not exist.

Two, Russian Orthodox Church is best counter-example. Membership in it rose from 30% in 1991 to 75% today. You can say two decades of pro-Church propaganda completely remodelled the society.

That strikes me as a bit dishonest, since the 30% membership in 1991 was obviously the result of an artificially depressed membership, caused by the Soviets trying to suppress the Church.

And yes, Soviets didn't manage to combat Church that much because Russia was very conservative. Czech republic under Soviets went from 70% catholic, 10% atheist in 40s to 80% non-religious, 10% catholic (and very lukewarm Catholic at that) today, after some religious rebound in last 2 decades.

And failed to do the same in Poland, and so on. I could reasonably argue that the USSR's methodical state atheism was for practical purposes not much different than the random slide toward secularism in other Western societies, in terms of its ability to truly remove religions feeling from the public.

Put this way... I never really bought that part. I can get the idea that true-believer "Party men" who are firmly loyal to and dependent on Palpatine's regime may come to believe his party line about the Jedi. But it feels... implausible that the entire mass of the galactic public could be turned around from seeing the Jedi as somewhat feared and thoroughly respected historical figures, whose contemporary membership is praised in the media (see the novelizations of the prequel) to being a myth.

Novelizations state 10.000 Jedi. That's one Jedi per 100 major worlds, closer to 10.000 worlds if we count minor planets/colonies and the fact big group was always based at Coruscant. Seeing? More like not-seeing.

What does it matter that the Jedi are rare, if they show up regularly on the equivalent of TV, and are pivotal figures in every major military or historical conflict?

[Ziggy Stardust]

whose contemporary membership is praised in the media (see the novelizations of the prequel) to being a myth.

That's why I said "pseudo-mythical." I don't think that the majority of citizenry literally believe that the Jedi don't or never existed, but rather that the stories of their Force powers and whatnot were exaggerated. I mean, think about it: how many people in the galaxy actually ever saw a Jedi in person, nevermind a Jedi using their Force powers? It must be an exceedingly small fraction. I could see in the wake of Imperial propaganda the posthumous reputation of the Jedi Order being reduced to that of some sort of paramilitary organization that got too big for it's britches and tried to launch a coup d'etat, and that the old stories of their powers were nothing more than Jedi/Republic propaganda.

[Anacronian]

It's worth remembering too that everything Palpatine said in his big speech to the Senate about the JEdi planning to overthrow the Senate and assume control was true, he just didn't mention that they would do it because Palpatine was actually Darth Sidious.

So not only do you have 30 years of propoganda painting (mostly truthfully) the Jedi as orchestrating a coup, but you also have the CLone Wars being started by the Jedi (rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin) and the menace being led by a former Jedi. With Force-users beign so rare and Imperial propoganda being so effective, I can easily see most people buying the party line. Especially as, like I said, a good chunk of it is true, from a vertain point of view.

Did the Jedi ever say anything about "Overthrowing the Senate" - i can only remember the Jedi wanting to remove Palpy from office, Though my memory might be faulty.

[Mange]

It's worth remembering too that everything Palpatine said in his big speech to the Senate about the JEdi planning to overthrow the Senate and assume control was true, he just didn't mention that they would do it because Palpatine was actually Darth Sidious.

So not only do you have 30 years of propoganda painting (mostly truthfully) the Jedi as orchestrating a coup, but you also have the CLone Wars being started by the Jedi (rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin) and the menace being led by a former Jedi. With Force-users beign so rare and Imperial propoganda being so effective, I can easily see most people buying the party line. Especially as, like I said, a good chunk of it is true, from a vertain point of view.

Did the Jedi ever say anything about "Overthrowing the Senate" - i can only remember the Jedi wanting to remove Palpy from office, Though my memory might be faulty.

Windu said that the "Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition."

[Simon_Jester]

whose contemporary membership is praised in the media (see the novelizations of the prequel) to being a myth.

That's why I said "pseudo-mythical." I don't think that the majority of citizenry literally believe that the Jedi don't or never existed, but rather that the stories of their Force powers and whatnot were exaggerated. I mean, think about it: how many people in the galaxy actually ever saw a Jedi in person, nevermind a Jedi using their Force powers? It must be an exceedingly small fraction. I could see in the wake of Imperial propaganda the posthumous reputation of the Jedi Order being reduced to that of some sort of paramilitary organization that got too big for it's britches and tried to launch a coup d'etat, and that the old stories of their powers were nothing more than Jedi/Republic propaganda.

Honestly I'm not sure how practical this would be after so many long generations of people accepting that the Jedi do have significant supernatural powers and constant portrayals of them charging into blaster-fights with lightsabers.

I guess I may just be skeptical of the idea that you can reverse that large a cultural belief, one which is supported by a wide variety of concrete evidence even if very few people have observed it personally, in that short a span of time.

You can certainly get a large minority of the population to disbelieve the stories of Jedi powers. But to deconstruct them in the public's mind to the extent that they are essentially forgotten and laughed at when Luke tries to revive the institution? Or to get something like this post which spawned the current line of discussion? Not so much, in my opinion.

Did the Jedi ever say anything about "Overthrowing the Senate" - i can only remember the Jedi wanting to remove Palpy from office, Though my memory might be faulty.

The Galactic Republic is basically a parliamentary system; the Chancellor is selected by the Senate and rules in its name. You can't overthrow the Chancellor without at least telling the Senate "we're sorry, but we're ignoring your voted decision, refusing to release the head of government you elected into your custody, and we're demanding that you pick a new head of government who suits our purposes better."

It's like, as a practical matter if the British Army wanted to overthrow the Prime Minister, they couldn't do so without at least forcing Parliament to be quiet and compliant while all this was going on.

[RogueIce]

Han's main disbelief was that "the Force" would control his destiny. Given his character, that seems entirely plausible. Sure he shrugged off the hokey tricks and such, but he was also being arrogant and rather pleased with himself at the time.

As far as Motti, well, he was on a Battle Station that can blow up entire worlds. I can see him dismissing a single Jedi compared to that. He was arrogant and smug, and Vader put him in his place.

Anyway, I doubt the galaxy at large would disbelieve the Jedi had powers. The extent of those powers could go either way, though. Like, in TPM, Anakin - in a childishly naïve belief - didn't think it was possible for someone to kill a Jedi and claim his lightsaber; Qui-Gon knew better, however, and replied as such in one of the better scenes in that movie.

But then just look at the Clone Wars. In my head, I think that conflict did make the Jedi seem a lot more mortal, and demonstrated that yes, mere 'mundanes' could stand up to the Jedi and even - to a certain extent - succeed, provided they had the sheer audacity, cunning and Death Star sized brass balls to pull it off. Like the time a bounty hunter broke into the Jedi Temple and made off with a holocron, for instance. Who's to say Palpatine didn't make sure that little exploit, among others, was distributed and talked about?

And sure, there's probably oodles of history and holodramas and the like of amazing Jedi feats. For the latter though, well, we have action movies, and does anyone think Vin Diesel could do half the shit he does in them in real life? Hardly. And the histories, well...it was unwise at best to look too deeply into the Jedi after they were declared enemies of the state, and those who knew them well either went all-in with the Empire or may have gotten purged/pushed into the Rebel Alliance. It is a valid question that, with 10,000 Jedi or so, how many of your average galactic citizens really saw a Jedi or knew one? And thus they could pass into a semi-mythological status, with a healthy dose of Imperial propaganda demonizing them.

Heck, let's go back to TPM: despite an entire battleship full of droid soldiers, the Trade Federation shit their pants at the thought of two Jedi having come on board. They were chased off in turn by a pair of droidekas, but if Sidious hadn't told the Viceroy to find his balls they probably would have folded then and there. On the other hand, because Gunray did get a tiny bit of backbone - and had the proper tools at hand - he managed to chase off a Jedi Master and his Padawan.

I think it's an interesting tangent to wonder, now that the slate has been wiped clean, how much the Jedi relied on this reputation of theirs during the heyday of the Republic to succeed. And just how many people they ever went up against possessed the audacity and guile to call that bluff. Because while they were certainly powerful and skilled, they were hardly invincible; a fact Qui-Gon Jinn seemed to be familiar with, which does imply that Jedi had fallen in his time, so evidently some did challenge the Republic's mystical secret police and succeeded.

[Lord Revan]

we should also remember that (at least in the old EU) the Jedi order encouraged the myths and half-truths to make the order seem more powerful then it actually was, I could see that biting them in the ass when the order fell since there's loads of accounts of questionable value about what Jedi can or can't do and the order itself did not clear things up so it's rather easy to assume the reason the order didn't clear things up is that the truth is that they don't really have powers and since there was too few jedi for most people to have actually witnessed one in the flesh it's easy again to assume that the visual evidence was manipulated.

[Anacronian]

Some small info from a concept art.



While the Tie Fighters look their usual selves from the front they do seem to have gotten bigger engines or at least they have bigger engine exhausts.



This is supposedly a new ship from the film.

[Adam Reynolds]

I think it's an interesting tangent to wonder, now that the slate has been wiped clean, how much the Jedi relied on this reputation of theirs during the heyday of the Republic to succeed. And just how many people they ever went up against possessed the audacity and guile to call that bluff. Because while they were certainly powerful and skilled, they were hardly invincible; a fact Qui-Gon Jinn seemed to be familiar with, which does imply that Jedi had fallen in his time, so evidently some did challenge the Republic's mystical secret police and succeeded.

This does make a great deal of sense. In many ways the Jedi Order was guilty of having victory disease. What has kept the peace for the last millennia can't possibly be wrong. Their problem was that the galaxy was becoming far more militarized in the leadup to and during the Clone Wars. Presumably unlike the Jedi that defeated the earlier groups of Sith* Yoda incarnation of the Order failed to adapt to the changing threat.

The idea that Jedi relied on their reputation is backed up by the events of AOTC, when Mace Windu and 200 Jedi overconfidently marched into the arena on Geonosis without an actual escape route. They apparently never considered that the droid foundries of Geonosis, that Obi-Wan specifically warned them about, might be used against them. Their assumption was that no one would possibly challenge them, regardless of how large their army was. Once they were forced into actual combat, Jedi tactics were pathetic. Instead of using stealth all of them brazenly drew their lightsabers around the arena in a display of force. Instead of staying mobile and getting out of the arena, the grouped in the middle of it.

That Princess Leia quote from ANH seems fitting here: "When you came in here didn't you have a plan for getting out?" While it would be expected for a naive farmboy and an overconfident smuggler to make such a mistake, for Jedi to do this rather drives a nail into the coffin of their reputation as the biggest badasses in the galaxy.

The reputation that the Clone Wars tarnished would be fully ruined by the events of ROTS. After Order 66 in which the majority of Jedi were killed by normal soldiers, it would be easy for anyone to claim that the Jedi were hardly the threat that they were commonly believed to be. This would be especially likely to be the case with both the Imperial military as well as the criminal underworld, the two groups that showed the most skepticism of the idea.

* We have no idea what exactly their nature was, but we do know the Sith want revenge for something, implying that they were once a significant organization. Palpatine even refers to the Sith ruling the galaxy, with Mace Windu also referring to the oppression of the Sith. The fact that they were defeated in a direct military confrontation(as happened in the original EU) is implied by the fact that Mace seemed to consider Palpatine and the Sith a threat in those terms, forgetting his political power.
One nice thing about the new continuity is that it fixes the issue with Yoda's comments on the Rule of Two. He obviously knew about it enough to state it as a certainty but that with the EU depictions of things, Bane only created it after the fall of the Brotherhood of Darkness and the apparent death of the Sith. How would they have known this in that case?

This is supposedly a new ship from the film.

Given the appearance of air intakes, presumably this is a type of airspeeder, but X-wings also appear to have air intakes and obviously fly in space. Though the shape reminds me of the Preybird design, from the cover art of Spectre of the Past, without wings.

[Tychu]

One nice thing about the new continuity is that it fixes the issue with Yoda's comments on the Rule of Two. He obviously knew about it enough to state it as a certainty but that with the EU depictions of things, Bane only created it after the fall of the Brotherhood of Darkness and the apparent death of the Sith. How would they have known this in that case?

Well Bane is in Clone Wars: Lost Missions, so his role in the Star Wars universe according to the nEwU may not be totally wiped.

[Adam Reynolds]

Well Bane is in Clone Wars: Lost Missions, so his role in the Star Wars universe according to the nEwU may not be totally wiped.

It looks like they haven't learned their lesson about contradicting the films. Though perhaps it might still be posible that he would be featured in a way that fails to contradict the Yoda's quote. The problem is that Yoda seemed certain about the idea that "Always two there are." How could he possibly be that certain if Bane's Sith only created that rule after going into hiding.

While I in many ways liked the Darth Bane trilogy by Drew Karpyshyn, especially how it gave a dark version of the hero's journey, failing to fully keep the ideas of the films in mind is somewhat inexcusable. Especially given that it seems to contradict the fundamental ideas of each group: the populist Jedi versus the elitist Sith. If they had wanted large battles with Force users, they should have used the same ideas as KOTOR or Clone Wars, that of Sith wannabees who use the Dark Side but aren't proper Sith Lords. Though I suppose in universe that was Bane's point about how the Brotherhood of Darkness were contradicting the ideas of the Sith and becoming too much like the Jedi.

[Mange]

Well, Bane was created by George Lucas.

[Knife]

Yoda's remark about the rule of two, without the old EU, can simple be interpreted to mean that there had to be someone somewhere who trained Maul. That just with the death of the mysterious assassin trained in the Jedi arts doesn't necessarily mean the treat is over because somebody had to have trained him and is still out there.

And was still out there.

[Patroklos]

Or its just a colloquial cockroach remark. It actually not true that when you see one there are always more. Its likely, but not always.

Just like with the Imperial officer quote of "other side of the galaxy by now" regarding the MC and the Han quote regarding the firepower to blow up Alderran it has to be remembered that rarely are these characters talking in a forum requiring or where we should expect precise communications rather than just people taking. Off the top of their head. Or out of their ass. They are not reading from a scientific report. It's our bias that is making us take all these comments as some profession of diamond hard truth.

Now please excuse me, I now have to go eat a horse. You see, I told my coworkers I could eat one for lunch. One of them called me out on it. After that I have to go do a metric shit ton of house work. I am not sure what that is via metric conversion but I also told my coworkers that so it must be possible. I then am going to drown myself in beer over the New Year. Literally drown myself, because I told them that too.

[Havok]

While what you are saying is true, you are completely ignoring the context of when these things are said.

The other side of the galaxy remark could be and probably is, 100% accurate with the speeds of hyperdrives. You notice Vader didn't balk at it at all and immediately ordered all commands alerted and every possible destination along their last known trajectory calculated. You also have to keep in mind that this is a military ship with what is supposed to be the best crews in the Imperial Navy speaking to Darth Vader after a major fuck up in which he has already killed one captain. Not the time to throw out bullshit flippant remarks.

As to Yoda's remark, he is speaking very specifically to who amounts as his boss, about the most important event of their lives and that of the current Jedi Order. I'm pretty sure he isn't just throwing it out there. And again, Mace doesn't go "Really? Just two? Well damn nigga, lets go find them mother fuckers.*" He clearly knows what Yoda is saying is true, it's almost more of a reminder than new information.

Han's remark can be taken lightly because of who he is and who he is talking to. He is an arrogant smuggler who thinks he is talking to a couple of idiot country bumpkins from Tattooine. The context is clearly different in this example compared to your other two, but you are acting as if they are exactly the same and Admiral Piett and Yoda are piloting the Falcon talking to farmer Luke.

*Jules voice, which is always how I read Mace in my head. It's funny and annoying at the same time.

[Lord Revan]

Perhaps there was rule similar to Darth Bane's "rule of two" before he made that rule and that's what Yoda is referring to like for example "a candidate isn't considered a master until he or she takes on an apprentice and until he or she does is still considered an apprentice of the orginal master and no master can have more then 1 apprentice at the same time" it fits with Yoda's line after all he did say without a dout that there was never more then 2 Sith in the galaxy just that there always had both a master and an apprentice.

[Havok]

Like Sith cells operating individually from each other. So always a Master and an Apprentice, but there could be say, 5 sets throughout the galaxy. Interesting theory. Unfortunately that fucks all the balance BS up and makes it meaningless and that stuff is in the movies.

[Havok]

It also, and this is a HUGE deal with me personally, cheapens what Palpatine did and represented. He is supposed to be the culmination of evil, not just one guy of however many that could be the culmination of evil.

It's the same reason I hate Dark Empire. It completely cheapens what Luke and Anakin finally accomplished in the movies. Oh just kidding, you didn't really fulfill your destiny and destroy evil, you have to do it again el oh el.