Elizabeth Smart, raped? (and Abortion issues)

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-20 03:14am

Edi, have you ever heard of Pavlovian conditioning? My cats come for food whenever I use the can opener, and will not eat food out of an open can unless it has just heard the sound of the can opener opening that can. They aren't aware enough to realize that I'm preparing food for them - They've just been conditioned to understand through repetition that "Can-opener sound = Food" to the point where they ignore other prompts for potential food sources.

Post by **Edi** » 2003-03-20 03:32am

Had one compulsory course of psychology in high school where that was discussed and I've read stuff on it on my own too. I know what it's about, and I'm definitely not talking about it here. Sure, the cats I and my gf have (they're hers, really) do have some of that conditioning in that they recognize the sound of a food tin being opened or dry pellets being poured into a cup, or the sound of the refrigerator being opened as being a slight possibility of being given shrimps. They do not, however, consider those the only food sources at all. Leaving chicken or some other delicacy unattended on the table will attract their immediate attention, and they will ignore cat food until it is clear they won't get anything better...

But they have also more than amply demonstrated initiative in expressing their desires (such as meaowing loudly when they want to be picked up and cuddled) and dislikes. They are quite selfaware, though not to the degree we are, of course. Their selfawareness is hardly debatable, but to what degree they are certainly is.

Edi

Lord of the Lurkers · Post by **Lord of the Lurkers** » 2003-03-20 10:35am

If anything I have learned one must be very specific on this board. The reason I posted those “pretty pictures” wasn’t to argue that corporeal form = human, but rather to illustrate to Durandal I wasn’t arguing a clump of cells was a human, as he thought I was.

My prior post included brain activity as well as form, it seems that was missed. I will repeat it in more detail in this post.

That said, the “pretty pictures” are important to establish when the form is finished. How can it not be? You can’t have brain activity without a brain. By establishing when the brain is formed, week 5, I establish a lower limit.

Week 5
· The brain divides into more specialized segments. The forebrain develops into two distinct sections, called the telencephalon and the diencephalon. The telecephalon is the primitive cerebrum, the 'thinking' part of the brain. The cerebrum is responsible for sensory perception, memory, learning, and conscious thought. The diecephalon develops into the thalumus and the hypothalumus, the 'feeling' part of the brain. The thalamus serves as a relay station between the senses and the brain. The hypothalamus produces basic drives and emotions such as hunger, thirst, pleasure, and fear. The midbrain continues to develop into brain structures also necessary for processing sensory information, while the hindbrain grows towards becoming the cerebellum, medula, and pons. These parts of the brain are responsible for unconscious physical processes like blood circulation or breathing, as well as reflexes. Also, the structures of the hindbrain are necessary for muscle coordination and movement.
· At 40 days, about five days after 5 weeks, the embryo's brain waves can be detected by an electroencephalogram.

By week 8 the brain and other organs are finished forming, we still have measurable brain activity. I’ve said this earlier, I believe it meets the definition & criteria you all have spelled out.

I’ve even done your work for you. The pro-choice sites I found prominently posted this “Sustained electroencephalographic bilaterally synchronous bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are not seen until 26 to 27 weeks” The clear implication being, up to 28 weeks there is not a fully developed brain thus we may abort. Taken to its logical conclusion there is no more moral atrocity killing 5 and 6 month premature babies than killing an animal. (which I grant you is a completely different topic) Thus it is more understandable why NARAL and NOW support Partial Birth Abortion, at 7 months they hold it is still not human. Still this is helpful, it appears an upper limit can be established at week 28 curtailing those like Nova Andromeda who place the upper limit at 3-4 years of age.

Who is doing the heavy lifting here? Darth Wong says it should be at the start of brain activity, I agree. It seems unbelievable arbitrary to me to just call it down the middle at 4.5 months. This doesn’t give any more scientific a reason why it should be 18 weeks rather than 8 weeks. Duchess says self awareness is most likely the 6th month and gives 4.5 as a margin of safety. Again, no scientific basis at all. In the words of Darrell Hammond on Saturday Night Live as Vice President Gore “I can’t believe I’m losing this debate.”

I posit my adversaries on this topic are merely using the “viability” rationale. You all know premature babies can survive outside the womb at around 4.5 months, so you are merely saying if it can survive on its own it is human. Or since you know any later time frame allows the killing of premature babies on the premie wing you are merely moving your time stamp before that date.

If there is another reason why 18 weeks is preferable to 8, I think it is on you to explain why.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-03-20 12:04pm

To quote Dave Barry: "Why don't you people whack each other with your silly signs, AND LEAVE US OUT OF IT?!???!!!"

I mean, this thread has been hijacked five pages back!!
I don't mean to be offensive, but please start your own thread.
I wish I was a moderator and not just some loser...

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-03-20 04:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:Fine, then produce a better solution.

Unfortunately, there is no real solution, because there are always problems. As medicine gets better, the period at which a neonate is viable will just get earlier and earlier, and overlap the time at which women terminations.

I just think that either pre-birth terminations are murder or they're not. the difference between a five month premature birth that survievs and a five month abortion is the former is wanted by its mother (and/or father). It's disgusting and horrible, but so is the entire debate.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-03-20 07:50pm

It's not about viability; it's about whether the baby is thinking. According to "Lord of the Lurkers":

By week 8 the brain and other organs are finished forming, we still have measurable brain activity. I've said this earlier, I believe it meets the definition & criteria you all have spelled out.

However, that is based on some kind of voodoo definition, probably based on the assumption that if it looks sort of like a brain and is not completely dead (hence "measurable activity" as a benchmark), then it's done. The brain does not actually finish forming until the 20th week, at which point rapid accumulation of mass slows down and the brain begins to organize itself into distinct systems. When that process is complete, I would posit that you have a working human brain, but not until then. So when "Lord of the Lurkers" insists that 4.5 months is some kind of purely arbitrary figure, he is basing that on a raw assumption since there actually is a basis for it.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-03-20 08:12pm

Ahh, y'see I'm not playing my his rules....

But I still maintain that you cannot define a point at which 'humanity' (by Marina's defintion) kicks in.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-21 04:06am

innerbrat wrote:Ahh, y'see I'm not playing my his rules....

But I still maintain that you cannot define a point at which 'humanity' (by Marina's defintion) kicks in.

Well yes you can, if you have a definition of what you consider humanity.