An unexpected party takes care of ISIS (RAR!)

[Simon_Jester]

Well, at this point you're no longer putting up anything resembling a logic-based argument. Or even one based on motives you can articulate. You're just... expressing your own fetish as if it were a self-evident truth.

So yeah, whatever. Just remember to wash your hands after your EVIL WIZARD fantasizing, I guess.

[Iroscato]

Wait wait wait. Lemme see if I'm with you.
An insane, cruel, psychopathic sadist who willingly - nay, enthusiastically - commits genocide every other week is ok to rule over you with an iron fist...but BECAUSE he's an evil space wizard you would be ok with that? Specifically because of his role as ESW?

[Purple]

Wait wait wait. Lemme see if I'm with you.
An insane, cruel, psychopathic sadist who willingly - nay, enthusiastically - commits genocide every other week is ok to rule over you with an iron fist...but BECAUSE he's an evil space wizard you would be ok with that? Specifically because of his role as ESW?

Not role, nature. And the space part is irrelevant.
But otherwise yes. Simply put the existence of evil wizards who are by their nature evil and wizards is something that is inherently soothing and satisfactory to human nature. We look up to them in order to gain structure in our lives and find our place in existence. Why else do you think human kind has invented cult after cult based on worshiping imaginary ones? Look at any number of gods in history, Zeus, Yahwe... They all share the same things. They are wizards and they are evil or at the very least callous about human lives. And they all rule the existing universe and impose their callous, cruel and at times contradictory will upon humans. There seems to be something in human nature that makes us want to yearn for these and to be oppressed by them.

So really, having an evil wizard, a real live evil wizard and not a made up one in charge would quite literally mean having a real god. And that's nifty.

[Metahive]

A neighbor of yours bears some petty grudge against you, he denounces you to the police for having seen you perform "subversive actions", maybe you told jokes about the Great Leader or maybe you complained too loud about the recent increase of workload. The local chief of the police jumps on the chance to be "tough on crime" for accolades (or arrest quotas), arrests you, confiscates your stuff and ships you off to the prison camp to be worked to death and all your protestations don't matter because, surely, only an enemy of the state would accuse its enforcers of wrongdoing.

Welcome to everyday reality under oppressive regimes. Examples like the above happened in Nazi-Germany, Stalin's Russia and Mao's China. That's why it doesn't matter to be a "law-abiding" citizen in such regimes. If some bigwig decides you are better off dead or imprisoned, it happens. That's what rule by fear means!

[Purple]

A neighbor of yours bears some petty grudge against you, he denounces you to the police for having seen you perform "subversive actions", maybe you told jokes about the Great Leader or maybe you complained too loud about the recent increase of workload. The local chief of the police jumps on the chance to be "tough on crime" for accolades (or arrest quotas), arrests you, confiscates your stuff and ships you off to the prison camp to be worked to death and all your protestations don't matter because, surely, only an enemy of the state would accuse its enforcers of wrongdoing.

Welcome to everyday reality under oppressive regimes. Examples like the above happened in Nazi-Germany, Stalin's Russia and Mao's China. That's why it doesn't matter to be a "law-abiding" citizen in such regimes. If some bigwig decides you are better off dead or imprisoned, it happens. That's what rule by fear means!

Sure, but Evil Wizard. Seriously, I am not going to argue you are not right 99% of the time. Bit in this situation there is an actual Evil Wizard on top. And that makes all the difference.

[Metahive]

Why does it matter? Every tool of oppression Palpatine uses is of the bog-standard earthen variety, terror, censorship, paranoia, etc. His "wizard" powers don't figure into the daily lives of imperial citizens at all.

[Iroscato]

A neighbor of yours bears some petty grudge against you, he denounces you to the police for having seen you perform "subversive actions", maybe you told jokes about the Great Leader or maybe you complained too loud about the recent increase of workload. The local chief of the police jumps on the chance to be "tough on crime" for accolades (or arrest quotas), arrests you, confiscates your stuff and ships you off to the prison camp to be worked to death and all your protestations don't matter because, surely, only an enemy of the state would accuse its enforcers of wrongdoing.

Welcome to everyday reality under oppressive regimes. Examples like the above happened in Nazi-Germany, Stalin's Russia and Mao's China. That's why it doesn't matter to be a "law-abiding" citizen in such regimes. If some bigwig decides you are better off dead or imprisoned, it happens. That's what rule by fear means!

Sure, but Evil Wizard. Seriously, I am not going to argue you are not right 99% of the time. Bit in this situation there is an actual Evil Wizard on top. And that makes all the difference.

You can bet your thoroughly oppressed arse the novelty would wear off pretty quickly. Round about the same time as you see a few turbolaser bolts hit the town next to you for being a hotbed of resistance. And that's if he's in an extremely good mood and doesn't just vaporise the entire continent.

[Purple]

Why does it matter? Every tool of oppression Palpatine uses is of the bog-standard earthen variety, terror, censorship, paranoia, etc. His "wizard" powers don't figure into the daily lives of imperial citizens at all.

It's not about the powers. It's the nature of the person. Why is this so complicated for you people?

It's not what he does but what he IS.

You can bet your thoroughly oppressed arse the novelty would wear off pretty quickly. Round about the same time as you see a few turbolaser bolts hit the town next to you for being a hotbed of resistance. And that's if he's in an extremely good mood and doesn't just vaporise the entire continent.

The novelty sure. But once that's gone you are still left with the reality of Evil Wizard. Nothing that happens will change that fact.

[Iroscato]

Why does it matter? Every tool of oppression Palpatine uses is of the bog-standard earthen variety, terror, censorship, paranoia, etc. His "wizard" powers don't figure into the daily lives of imperial citizens at all.

It's not about the powers. It's the nature of the person. Why is this so complicated for you people?

It's not what he does but what he IS.

You can bet your thoroughly oppressed arse the novelty would wear off pretty quickly. Round about the same time as you see a few turbolaser bolts hit the town next to you for being a hotbed of resistance. And that's if he's in an extremely good mood and doesn't just vaporise the entire continent.

The novelty sure. But once that's gone you are still left with the reality of Evil Wizard. Nothing that happens will change that fact.

You are a shining infinity pit of strangeness.

[Purple]

You are a shining infinity pit of strangeness.

Thank you. I guess.

[Malagar]

Simply put the existence of evil wizards who are by their nature evil and wizards is something that is inherently soothing and satisfactory to human nature. We look up to them in order to gain structure in our lives and find our place in existence. Why else do you think human kind has invented cult after cult based on worshiping imaginary ones? Look at any number of gods in history, Zeus, Yahwe... They all share the same things. They are wizards and they are evil or at the very least callous about human lives. And they all rule the existing universe and impose their callous, cruel and at times contradictory will upon humans. There seems to be something in human nature that makes us want to yearn for these and to be oppressed by them.

So really, having an evil wizard, a real live evil wizard and not a made up one in charge would quite literally mean having a real god. And that's nifty.

I'm going to disagree with you on this, the reason that most of the gods we have come up with are cruel is not because humanity naturally wants to be oppressed by such things, but because they were invented to explain nature and a nice helpful and forgiving god does not make sense when half your tribe dies of some plague, or everyone starves because the harvest failed again.
In short, cruel gods were invented because nature is cruel, not because people wanted cruel gods.

[jwl]

Are we really having this discussion? Humour Purple and move on.

[Purple]

I'm going to disagree with you on this, the reason that most of the gods we have come up with are cruel is not because humanity naturally wants to be oppressed by such things, but because they were invented to explain nature and a nice helpful and forgiving god does not make sense when half your tribe dies of some plague, or everyone starves because the harvest failed again.
In short, cruel gods were invented because nature is cruel, not because people wanted cruel gods.

And in this case we once again have a cruel evil wizard who in fact even does actually explain the cruelty of the world.

[Metahive]

What, do you think people need space-wizardry to be evil? In the grand scheme of things, Palpatine isn't all that special when it comes to being "evil", he just has more advanced tech to act on it.

[InsaneTD]

It can't be as bad as you lot say it is during everyday life in the star wars verse. Most planets/systems have their own government and aren't controlled that heavily. Examples would be Hutt Space, The Corporate Sector and Corellia and Bothawui. Yes there is an imperial presence, there is on even back water planets.

And there are examples where there is an imperial government cracking down on the population, Mon Calamari, Kashyyyk and Byss.

My point is, most planetary/system governments would actually be rather benevolent.

[Batman]

Yeah, because the Corporate Sector and Hutt Space were such nice places to live. Why would most governments be rather benevolent when it is blatantly obvious that they can get away with being just as tyrannical as the Empire as long as they don't get in the Empire's way?

[Metahive]

It can't be as bad as you lot say it is during everyday life in the star wars verse. Most planets/systems have their own government and aren't controlled that heavily. Examples would be Hutt Space, The Corporate Sector and Corellia and Bothawui. Yes there is an imperial presence, there is on even back water planets.

And there are examples where there is an imperial government cracking down on the population, Mon Calamari, Kashyyyk and Byss.

My point is, most planetary/system governments would actually be rather benevolent.

Sorry, but when the government deems it appropriate to blow up entire planets, including wealthy and politically well established core worlds "pour encourager les autres", then I think there's a few other places that would be more terrifying to live in. I even think only the Warhammer 40000 verse would beat that in unpleasentness.

[Iroscato]

Plus the Empire was only getting worse as time went on. Less than 20 years after seizing power they'd dissolved the senate and any remnant of democracy along with it, whilst simultaneously completing an unparalleled super weapon and 'testing' it on a core member of their constituency.
Imagine if they'd lasted another 50 or 100 years instead of another 4-5. I suspect it would indeed start to rival the WH40K...

[Metahive]

Well, Palpatine's ultimate goal supposedly was to attain godhood, so...

[Malagar]

I'm going to disagree with you on this, the reason that most of the gods we have come up with are cruel is not because humanity naturally wants to be oppressed by such things, but because they were invented to explain nature and a nice helpful and forgiving god does not make sense when half your tribe dies of some plague, or everyone starves because the harvest failed again.
In short, cruel gods were invented because nature is cruel, not because people wanted cruel gods.

And in this case we once again have a cruel evil wizard who in fact even does actually explain the cruelty of the world.

He explains some of it, though more by being an evil dictator than by being an evil wizard. That still doesn't make it a good idea to move into his area of influence, the only thing you will achive with that is achieving unnecessary misery.

[Lord Revan]

Purple seems so obsessed with Palpatine's status as a Dark Jedi (or evil wizard as he calls it), that he forgets that said status is a secret known only by a select few at the top of the imperial heirarchy and that as far as your average imperial citizen is conserned all of Palpatine's power comes from the fact he's the emperor.

Purple seems to (possibly intentionally) mix up what is and is not inherent to Palpatine as a person. To give example Superman's powers are inhertent he has always access to them even in his Clark Kent persona cause his powers are part of what he is, on the other hand Ironman's powers are not inherent to him but rather his powers come from the Iron Man suit and without access to the suit Tony Stark is a normal person.

How this relates to Palpatine is that his force powers are inherent but he normally hides those, where as his public source of power meaning the Imperial Military is not inherent to Palpatine the person but to the office of the Imperial Throne and thus anyone on the throne could in theory command the Imperial Military and that power has nothing to do with Palpatine's Status as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

Also while Palpatine is a Dark Jedi, he's (as far as we know) the only one in the imperial byrocracy with everyone else being normal humans (or what ever species they are).

[Purple]

Purple seems so obsessed with Palpatine's status as a Dark Jedi (or evil wizard as he calls it), that he forgets that said status is a secret known only by a select few at the top of the imperial heirarchy and that as far as your average imperial citizen is conserned all of Palpatine's power comes from the fact he's the emperor.

Why is this relevant in any way, shape or form? The scenario is one of Palpatine and his empire showing up to conquer our earth and beat up ISIS. So I would know about his nature. And given that my argument is entirely about my own perspective in this that's all that matters.

Purple seems to (possibly intentionally) mix up what is and is not inherent to Palpatine as a person. To give example Superman's powers are inhertent he has always access to them even in his Clark Kent persona cause his powers are part of what he is, on the other hand Ironman's powers are not inherent to him but rather his powers come from the Iron Man suit and without access to the suit Tony Stark is a normal person.

I am not sure what the EU status of force powers is but it is my understanding that they are inherent. People are born with the talent of force sensitivity. And being evil is again a part of ones nature.

How this relates to Palpatine is that his force powers are inherent but he normally hides those, where as his public source of power meaning the Imperial Military is not inherent to Palpatine the person but to the office of the Imperial Throne and thus anyone on the throne could in theory command the Imperial Military and that power has nothing to do with Palpatine's Status as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

And if it was anyone else on the throne that would be bad. But it isn't. He does not have to do anything in order to be. He just has to be.

Also while Palpatine is a Dark Jedi, he's (as far as we know) the only one in the imperial byrocracy with everyone else being normal humans (or what ever species they are).

Again, the tools of oppression do not have to be an extension of the evil wizard. They do not even have to be inspired by him. An evil wizard that newer even orders anything and only takes credit later still counts just as long as he is evil and a wizard.

[NecronLord]

Basically what you're talking about is defeatism because Palpatine is an evil wizard.

You also, as a person from Earth, know that the Force has a will and power of its own and has decreed that he is to die. You know, the prophecy, the DESTINY that Palpatine has, and cannot escape, as all his powers are drawn from the Living Force which has created a CHOSEN ONE who will Balance the Force, IE kill him.

The source of his wizardly powers, in all respects a god, not a wizard, does not actually like him.

So why the deference to his powers? You might not get to kill him, but his doom is set. He's a wizard, not a god. That's the Force.

So, important question. You live on Occupied Earth. News reaches you! Luke Skywalker, son of the famous general, has defeated the Emperor and the Rebellion has triumphed at Endor. How does that change your attitude?

[Purple]

Basically what you're talking about is defeatism because Palpatine is an evil wizard.

It's not defeatism. Defeatism is saying "surrender, you can't win because he is an evil wizard." That's not what I am saying. I am saying: "Rejoice! Evil Wizard!"

You also, as a person from Earth, know that the Force has a will and power of its own and has decreed that he is to die. You know, the prophecy, the DESTINY that Palpatine has, and cannot escape, as all his powers are drawn from the Living Force which has created a CHOSEN ONE who will Balance the Force, IE kill him.

Every time you start drinking you know that the glass is going to run out on you. Does that mean you can't enjoy your drink?

The source of his wizardly powers, in all respects a god, not a wizard, does not actually like him.

I see no relevance in this fact. A part of being an Evil Wizard is taking power, even against its will and being hated for it.

So why the deference to his powers? You might not get to kill him, but his doom is set. He's a wizard, not a god. That's the Force.

Because Evil Wizard. Duh. And I am sorry for putting it like that. But I don't know what else to say. It's self evident.

So, important question. You live on Occupied Earth. News reaches you! Luke Skywalker, son of the famous general, has defeated the Emperor and the Rebellion has triumphed at Endor. How does that change your attitude?

If I was being oppressed before that moment suddenly that oppression becomes unbearable because no more Evil Wizard. I also feel deprived for I have lost Evil Wizard. Finally I return to my normal pre- Evil Wizard thinking and personality and try to figure out what to do next. Because without Evil Wizard life sadly needs to go on.

[Batman]

Basically what you're talking about is defeatism because Palpatine is an evil wizard.

It's not defeatism. Defeatism is saying "surrender, you can't win because he is an evil wizard." That's not what I am saying. I am saying: "Rejoice! Evil Wizard!"

And the reason to rejoice would be-what, exactly? How does an evil wizard being in charge change the fact that countless innocent people are oppressed, tortured, murdered and so on? By your (for want of a better word) reasoning you'd be happy to live in Stalin's USSR if it turned out Stalin was a Kryptonian.