Ukraine War Thread

[Simon_Jester]

I am not a Western politician.

Frankly, if the European nations don't believe in spheres of influence, then it's hard to see their justification for suppressing an ethnic separatist movement. Either you believe in the 19th century concept of nations as reflecting the ethnicity of their people, or you believe in the 17th century concept of nations as impartial "princes" ruling over mixed-ethnicity empires.

There's not a lot of middle ground.

What it comes down to, again, is that if the Europeans think that events in the Donbass are any of their business, then given that the Russians care intensely and are in a good position to control what happens, the Europeans are going to have to exert themselves.

If they decide not to do so, then by default they are ceding the issue to the Russians.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I am not a Western politician.

Frankly, if the European nations don't believe in spheres of influence, then it's hard to see their justification for suppressing an ethnic separatist movement. Either you believe in the 19th century concept of nations as reflecting the ethnicity of their people, or you believe in the 17th century concept of nations as impartial "princes" ruling over mixed-ethnicity empires.

There's not a lot of middle ground.

What it comes down to, again, is that if the Europeans think that events in the Donbass are any of their business, then given that the Russians care intensely and are in a good position to control what happens, the Europeans are going to have to exert themselves.

If they decide not to do so, then by default they are ceding the issue to the Russians.

Well, if you ask me, it is because of this dissonance in actions vs words that has led everyone to this point. Whereas the Russians bluntly say that they want Ukraine to be in their sphere of influence, Europeans and the United States go beating round the bush about freedom and what not, when in truth, they do want Ukraine to be in their sphere of influence. The Russians of course do not buy the propaganda spiel and go about their business of making actions speak much louder.

[Simon_Jester]

The matter is further complicated by the fact that the Ukraine was an administrative division of Russia proper for most of the last 300 years, and that the Crimea region of the Ukraine in particular was only 'part of' the Ukraine in the first place because of Soviet-era administrative reshuffling.

Thus, the Russians can even claim that their 'right' to the Donbass and the Crimea is simply a matter of the idea that all Russians who want to live in Russia have a right to live in Russia- which is supported by the fact that the ethnic Russian-speakers of the western Ukraine are almost without exception the ones who revolted.

This means that the Europeans have trouble justifying any real intervention in a coherent fashion, because they can't make it a narrative of pro-democracy rebels overthrowing a tyrant, or of an abused minority trying to find freedom from an oppressive government.