For those sick of all the "police are assholes" threads...

[AMT]

From my old hometown

https://www.facebook.com/LudlowPolice/p ... 61?fref=nf

Ludlow School was out all last week and that meant many of the students that depend on the school for free and reduced meals had to go without. There is no doubt that for some of these kids this meant they were simply going hungry. On Fridays, many of these kids get pre-packaged food called "power packs" to get them through the weekend. After being off Monday through Thursday, only staff was to report on Friday. This would extend their period of hunger for three additional days.
One of the SRO's duties is to make home visits, usually due to truancy. Officer Nottingham decided to make home visits on Friday to deliver food to those who truly needed it. Together with some school officials, they picked up seven cases of macaroni and cheese to go with the power packs and delivered much needed and appreciated food to over SIXTY kids! Way to go Officer Nottingham and the folks at Ludlow Schools!

Who would have thought that the group's dedicated to protecting and serving actually protected and served? And notice how something like this isn't actually on the news, just on FB.

Remember, any group has bad and good members of it. Just because our society likes to accentuate the negative doesn't mean the positive also doesn't exist, and perhaps more so than its opposite.

[Thanas]

To be honest I really do not want to see a swell of "the police are good guys" threads filling up this forum either. Because at that point we may just rename it into propaganda battle. Is it newsworthy?

Everybody with a brain already knows that some police officers are good guys, some are assholes. That is not the issue.

[AMT]

To be honest I really do not want to see a swell of "the police are good guys" threads filling up this forum either. Because at that point we may just rename it into propaganda battle. Is it newsworthy?

Everybody with a brain already knows that some police officers are good guys, some are assholes. That is not the issue.

I'd say that if we think police who may or may not have unlawfully attacked people or shot people (and there are several cases where the office was justified in their use of force) is considered newsworthy enough to have dozens of threads, and its own sticky, that its opposite, an office going above and beyond to help, is equally justified.

Yeah, it's not as sensational as "if you're mentally handicapped, the police will kill you", but it's something that should be just as noteworthy. As for it being propaganda, I'd say that this is has just as much propaganda as any of those other stories, it's just something more low-key because it doesn't meet the media's mantra of "it bleeds, it leads".

[Thanas]

I'd say that if we think police who may or may not have unlawfully attacked people or shot people (and there are several cases where the office was justified in their use of force) is considered newsworthy enough to have dozens of threads, and its own sticky, that its opposite, an office going above and beyond to help, is equally justified.

I am very glad that police are doing their job. That does not mean they are newsworthy.

It's a bit like a Catholic complaining that we should have a thread for positive things the Catholic Church does whenever child abuse threads hit the news. It is not the issue at hand. At best, it is a red herring.

Yeah, it's not as sensational as "if you're mentally handicapped, the police will kill you", but it's something that should be just as noteworthy.

Why? Is me giving money to homeless newsworthy, or me going above and beyond in my job? The moral worth is one thing, but that does not make a thing newsworthy. You do not get or deserve a medal for being good at your job or being a good person in general. It is what is expected of you in my book.

[AMT]

I am very glad that police are doing their job. That does not mean they are newsworthy.

I agree. But last time I checked "providing food for poor children who may not have enough to eat" isn't part of the police's daily job. It would be awesome if it were, but it isn't.

It's a bit like a Catholic complaining that we should have a thread for positive things the Catholic Church does whenever child abuse threads hit the news. It is not the issue at hand. At best, it is a red herring.

Which is why we aren't talking about police doing their regular job, but a story where they go above and beyond the call of duty and perform an act of kindness when they really don't need to.

Why? Is me giving money to homeless newsworthy, or me going above and beyond in my job? The moral worth is one thing, but that does not make a thing newsworthy. You do not get or deserve a medal for being good at your job or being a good person in general. It is what is expected of you in my book.

So in other words, we should only post stories showing the negative side of humanity?

[Thanas]

I agree. But last time I checked "providing food for poor children who may not have enough to eat" isn't part of the police's daily job. It would be awesome if it were, but it isn't.

In that case, it is no different than what millions of people do each day.

So in other words, we should only post stories showing the negative side of humanity?

No, feel free to post them. But don't be surprised if at some point they'll be collected in a sticky or even a general "restore faith in humanity thread".

[AMT]

I agree. But last time I checked "providing food for poor children who may not have enough to eat" isn't part of the police's daily job. It would be awesome if it were, but it isn't.

In that case, it is no different than what millions of people do each day.

So millions of people take time out of their jobs to personally go to the homes of 60 children or more every day to insure they have food? That seems a bit hyperbolic and inflated. Can you back that up?

By that reasoning we have on average, about 5,300 deaths by violent means every day (per the WHO), yet we single out when it occurs by police.

No, feel free to post them. But don't be surprised if at some point they'll be collected in a sticky or even a general "restore faith in humanity thread".

I'd love a thread like that actually. Who wouldn't like a little more positivity in life?

[Lord Revan]

With all due respect Thanas not so long ago you could have almost renamed N&P to "anti-police propaganda forum" with several threads saying nothing but "police are bad" it really didn't stop until Edi started dumping those into the general police abuse thread, so it's understandble that people want to show the "other side" even if the item itself isn't really news worthy.

Also I wouldn't mind a "restore faith to humanity" general thread, it would be nice to see that word isn't all grimdarkness and there's still good in this world (God that sounded way better in my head).

[Thanas]

So millions of people take time out of their jobs to personally go to the homes of 60 children or more every day to insure they have food? That seems a bit hyperbolic and inflated. Can you back that up?

Millions of people give to charity and help out. The Salvation Army has 1.5 million members in total worldwide and helps 32 million people in the US alone each year. And they are just one organization. One pretty typical German organization (again, just one of many) has 60k members and helps provide 1.5 million of people with free meals every weak.

So while I don't have numbers for every charitable giver there is, I am quite confident that millions of people worldwide do take time out of their jobs to volunteer and provide food.

By that reasoning we have on average, about 5,300 deaths by violent means every day (per the WHO), yet we single out when it occurs by police.

Do you understand the difference between somebody entrusted with state power killing someone and criminals/war?

With all due respect Thanas not so long ago you could have almost renamed N&P to "anti-police propaganda forum" with several threads saying nothing but "police are bad" it really didn't stop until Edi started dumping those into the general police abuse thread, so it's understandble that people want to show the "other side" even if the item itself isn't really news worthy.

The staff recognized that problem and acted. That does not give others an excuse to swing the pendulum in the other way.

[Lord Revan]

With all due respect Thanas not so long ago you could have almost renamed N&P to "anti-police propaganda forum" with several threads saying nothing but "police are bad" it really didn't stop until Edi started dumping those into the general police abuse thread, so it's understandble that people want to show the "other side" even if the item itself isn't really news worthy.

The staff recognized that problem and acted. That does not give others an excuse to swing the pendulum in the other way.

I recognize that the staff has acted to correct the problem and I'm certainly not suggesting flooding the board with "look at all the good the police have done" threads either. I'm just saying that is understandble that people want to show that not all cops are thugs with a badge and too much power.

[AMT]

Millions of people give to charity and help out. The Salvation Army has 1.5 million members in total worldwide and helps 32 million people in the US alone each year. And they are just one organization. One pretty typical German organization (again, just one of many) has 60k members and helps provide 1.5 million of people with free meals every weak.

So while I don't have numbers for every charitable giver there is, I am quite confident that millions of people worldwide do take time out of their jobs to volunteer and provide food.

But we're not talking about any level of charity or kindness, but the level this office did going above and beyond. How many do that?

Do you understand the difference between somebody entrusted with state power killing someone and criminals/war?

We're singling out a group that is part of a larger whole for their negatives. But let's look at it from a police only perspective.
From the numbers I've found (wikipedia only alas), there were 593 total killings by law enforcement in 2014 in the US. We also have approximately 765,000 sworn in officers in the US. If we are very liberal and say that each officer made only one arrest or had one encounter with the public, that means 0.105% of all police encounters end with death for a member of the public.

[Flagg]

Umm, why should we praise cops for doing what they are paid to do? That's fucking idiotic.

[AMT]

Umm, why should we praise cops for doing what they are paid to do? That's fucking idiotic.

Tell me where it's said that police are supposed to go out to the homes of poor children and personally hand food off for them to eat.
Or is this just general thread shitting without actually reading the thread?

[Flagg]

Umm, why should we praise cops for doing what they are paid to do? That's fucking idiotic.

Tell me where it's said that police are supposed to go out to the homes of poor children and personally hand food off for them to eat.
Or is this just general thread shitting without actually reading the thread?

Umm, it's on their cruisers, shithead. "Protect and Serve".

[Thanas]

Millions of people give to charity and help out. The Salvation Army has 1.5 million members in total worldwide and helps 32 million people in the US alone each year. And they are just one organization. One pretty typical German organization (again, just one of many) has 60k members and helps provide 1.5 million of people with free meals every weak.

So while I don't have numbers for every charitable giver there is, I am quite confident that millions of people worldwide do take time out of their jobs to volunteer and provide food.

But we're not talking about any level of charity or kindness, but the level this office did going above and beyond. How many do that?

Now you are somewhat switching the goalposts here. First it was supposed to be about charity, now it is about the guys doing more? Well, there are countless examples of people going above and beyond as well. Not going to flood the board with that either.

We're singling out a group that is part of a larger whole for their negatives.

No, they get the exact same treatment as any other group that has extraordinary powers and has a large number of abusers within it. Again, the Catholic Church comparison is apt. The church does a lot of social work but the headlines are always dominated by their pedophiles. The reason for that is that the Church is unable or unwilling to get a handle on it. Same with police - the number of people that are shot in sketchy circumstances is just way too damn high.

But let's look at it from a police only perspective.
From the numbers I've found (wikipedia only alas), there were 593 total killings by law enforcement in 2014 in the US. We also have approximately 765,000 sworn in officers in the US. If we are very liberal and say that each officer made only one arrest or had one encounter with the public, that means 0.105% of all police encounters end with death for a member of the public.

That is besides the point, I am willing to bet the % of encounters with priests that end with molestation is similarly miniscule.

[AMT]

Umm, why should we praise cops for doing what they are paid to do? That's fucking idiotic.

Tell me where it's said that police are supposed to go out to the homes of poor children and personally hand food off for them to eat.
Or is this just general thread shitting without actually reading the thread?

Umm, it's on their cruisers, shithead. "Protect and Serve".

So in other words, thread shitting, since you can't actually prove a police officer job includes personally handing out food to hungry children on their own initiative. Got it!

Now you are somewhat switching the goalposts here. First it was supposed to be about charity, now it is about the guys doing more? Well, there are countless examples of people going above and beyond as well. Not going to flood the board with that either.

Apologies if I wasn't clear on my initial post. It wasn't about charity in general, but a person going above and beyond their job duties to perform an act of kindness in the performance of their duties despite it not being part of their normal duties.

No, they get the exact same treatment as any other group that has extraordinary powers and has a large number of abusers within it. Again, the Catholic Church comparison is apt. The church does a lot of social work but the headlines are always dominated by their pedophiles. The reason for that is that the Church is unable or unwilling to get a handle on it. Same with police - the number of people that are shot in sketchy circumstances is just way too damn high.

That is besides the point, I am willing to bet the % of encounters with priests that end with molestation is similarly miniscule.

The point here though is that we are not discussing the majority of those within these professions who are doing their normal duties, but about those who are outliers, either negatively or positively. I think (Flagg aside) that a story where a police officer personally delivered food to 60 children when he didn't need to while performing his normal duties is as news worthy as a police officer who beats or shoots someone while performing his normal duties.

Both are items that are minuscule when compared to the normal activities of the police and thus out of the ordinary. Both affect lives and make changes in the community it happens. The only difference is that one is positive and one is negative.

[aerius]

In a civilized country, we expect the police to be better people than us and set a positive example for the rest of society to follow. And in many places this is true, they'll volunteer at charity events, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, school events and various other community functions. It's not required, but they do it anyway.

So good for the police who provided food for the kids. Job well done, and it's what we expect them to do.

[AMT]

In a civilized country, we expect the police to be better people than us and set a positive example for the rest of society to follow. And in many places this is true, they'll volunteer at charity events, soup kitchens, homeless shelters, school events and various other community functions. It's not required, but they do it anyway.

So good for the police who provided food for the kids. Job well done, and it's what we expect them to do.

See that's the thing though... do we actually expect that? These days, more and more, people expect the police at best to be mindless automatons trying to hit their ticket quota, at worse stormtroopers for whatever group they don't like, whether it be big business or big government. That was also a reason for me to post this, to go against that rising sentiment, at least on here.

and to reiterate, if that means this eventually goes into a merged thread and we can get other positive items on there, so much the better.

[Thanas]

Apologies if I wasn't clear on my initial post. It wasn't about charity in general, but a person going above and beyond their job duties to perform an act of kindness in the performance of their duties despite it not being part of their normal duties.

Dude, there are so many examples just from my personal memory. The doctor who gave privileged treatment to somebody who did not qualify for it, essentially doing way more work for free and cutting into his profits, the teacher who helped my disabled classmate by giving him two hours of lessons for free each day....I fear this discussion will be getting nowhere if we start comparing which is more newsworthy.

The point here though is that we are not discussing the majority of those within these professions who are doing their normal duties, but about those who are outliers, either negatively or positively. I think (Flagg aside) that a story where a police officer personally delivered food to 60 children when he didn't need to while performing his normal duties is as news worthy as a police officer who beats or shoots someone while performing his normal duties.

Both are items that are minuscule when compared to the normal activities of the police and thus out of the ordinary. Both affect lives and make changes in the community it happens. The only difference is that one is positive and one is negative.

I think there is a huge difference between the police killing somebody and doing more than required. One is a crime and very, very impactful on the live of the one who is dead. Delivering sandwiches pales in comparison.

[Flagg]

So in other words, thread shitting, since you can't actually prove a police officer job includes personally handing out food to hungry children on their own initiative. Got it!

No, your thread is shitting up the board. The boy scouts of America do food drives, but they still exclude gay scoutmasters and outright ban Atheists. But you know, they do some good stuff too! Police are SUPPOSED to serve the fucking community you asshat. But just because they help feed poor kids doesn't negate the fact that police tend to shoot unarmed black men and teenagers on a frequent basis and walk, usually keeping their jobs. You know who else used to go and handout food to the poor? The Mafia. Guess they aren't all that bad, either.

[AMT]

Dude, there are so many examples just from my personal memory. The doctor who gave privileged treatment to somebody who did not qualify for it, essentially doing way more work for free and cutting into his profits, the teacher who helped my disabled classmate by giving him two hours of lessons for free each day....I fear this discussion will be getting nowhere if we start comparing which is more newsworthy.

I honestly think those types of items should be newsworthy as well. That's the issue with news in general, it focuses on the negative but ignores the positive. Those actions should be championed, not ignored.

I think there is a huge difference between the police killing somebody and doing more than required. One is a crime and very, very impactful on the live of the one who is dead. Delivering sandwiches pales in comparison.

But the issue is that this forum has been more skewed towards the negative items, not the positive, creating a very lopsided and incorrect view of the police. Are there issues with the way crimes and potential crimes and police procedures are handled, especially in the US? I'll be the first to agree.

But is it something that is systemic, running through all layers of society? No. And that's one reason why items such as this should be posted, to remind people of that. There's definitely both good and bad in the world, but if we only focus on the bad while ignoring the good, what does that do to us as people?

More threadshitting

Let me know when you have something of substance to say and not tossing around emotional red herrings.

[Thanas]

I honestly think those types of items should be newsworthy as well. That's the issue with news in general, it focuses on the negative but ignores the positive. Those actions should be championed, not ignored.

There's a time for recognising that, but it is not the news. Otherwise nobody would find the important issues. Police shooting people is obviously important. Police delivering sandwiches does not matter at all to the wider populace.

But the issue is that this forum has been more skewed towards the negative items, not the positive, creating a very lopsided and incorrect view of the police. Are there issues with the way crimes and potential crimes and police procedures are handled, especially in the US? I'll be the first to agree.
But is it something that is systemic, running through all layers of society? No.

Your statement does not match my impression of the police. Eric Garner alone is enough of a case to taint the entire Police Department of New York. If you do not get that then I am afraid we will not see eye to eye on this.

More threadshitting

Let me know when you have something of substance to say and not tossing around emotional red herrings.

He's got a point. He and I are of the same opinion, I am just more polite in expressing it.

[AMT]

There's a time for recognising that, but it is not the news. Otherwise nobody would find the important issues. Police shooting people is obviously important. Police delivering sandwiches does not matter at all to the wider populace.

To me that seems to be more of an indictment against society that doing good deeds is not newsworthy while other items are. But that might be more of a discussion in the logic and morality board (which if you feel this discussion should split to please feel free)

Your statement does not match my impression of the police. Eric Garner alone is enough of a case to taint the entire Police Department of New York. If you do not get that then I am afraid we will not see eye to eye on this.

In those situations, yes that can taint the entire department. I wouldn't say that there are never cases where larger issues are to be found, which we only see due to the smaller symptoms (like Eric Garner), smaller in the sense of who perpetrated the act. But to say the entire police office "organization", as a whole, is that way? That's where the line should be drawn, in my opinion.

He's got a point. He and I are of the same opinion, I am just more polite in expressing it.

You see, I don't think you actually do. In his examples he uses an organization that is homophobic and bigoted towards atheists, and an organization that is outright criminal, and says that my point of view would forgive them both because "they do nice things, sometimes".
That is not what I'm saying whatsoever, and his use of those examples while only parroting what you said using actual substance is just white noise, as far as I'm concerned.

But going back to what I'm saying... while there are very much issues with the way things are done in the US when it comes to law enforcement, it is not the norm, and that there can be just as many cases of police officers going above and beyond their duties to perform acts of kindness. Of course those acts do not always equate to each other, as you noted that giving out food doesn't equal taking a life, but the basic claim, which is that not all police are assholes and monsters, is valid and still stands.

Again, as for the news worthiness or certain acts, if you think that might be better in morality, please split it there, since it does run away from the whole "this is a news subforum" aspect of where this thread is posted.

[aerius]

See that's the thing though... do we actually expect that? These days, more and more, people expect the police at best to be mindless automatons trying to hit their ticket quota, at worse stormtroopers for whatever group they don't like, whether it be big business or big government. That was also a reason for me to post this, to go against that rising sentiment, at least on here.

You get the police you expect. Same with many other things in life. Up in Canada, we still expect our police to conduct themselves with integrity and go above the call of duty, and for the most part that's what we get.

[Thanas]

To me that seems to be more of an indictment against society that doing good deeds is not newsworthy while other items are.

In the words of Chris Rock "what do you want, a cookie?" Doing good things is expected of any right-thinking citizen. It should not deserve special mention.

In those situations, yes that can taint the entire department. I wouldn't say that there are never cases where larger issues are to be found, which we only see due to the smaller symptoms (like Eric Garner), smaller in the sense of who perpetrated the act. But to say the entire police office "organization", as a whole, is that way? That's where the line should be drawn, in my opinion.

See, you can't have it both ways. You cannot say "the police is overwhelmingly good" by pointing out to a minority of officers delivering sandwiches (which is not that huge of an act) then argue that multiple cases of questionable death committed by a minority of officers is not the same thing.

You see, I don't think you actually do. In his examples he uses an organization that is homophobic and bigoted towards atheists, and an organization that is outright criminal, and says that my point of view would forgive them both because "they do nice things, sometimes".
That is not what I'm saying whatsoever, and his use of those examples while only parroting what you said using actual substance is just white noise, as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, I can see where he is coming from. He is saying that stuff like this should not be posted because it serves the same value as posting a thread about Catholic charity next to a thread about pedophile priests - at best, it is completely unrelated to the issue, at worst it just serves as police apologia, aka the "only a few bad apples" when in the case of the NYPD the rot is clearly widespread throughout the entire department (see the police reaction even to the mildest of criticism). In other words, what people are outraged about is the large number of officers condoning or not ostracizing the assholes.

the basic claim, which is that not all police are assholes and monsters, is valid and still stands.

Right, nobody is arguing against that.