Obama to use exectutive action to ban 5.56mm bullets

[dragon]

As promised, President Obama is using executive actions to impose gun control on the nation, targeting the top-selling rifle in the country, the AR-15 style semi-automatic, with a ban on one of the most-used AR bullets by sportsmen and target shooters.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives this month revealed that it is proposing to put the ban on 5.56mm ammo on a fast track, immediately driving up the price of the bullets and prompting retailers, including the huge outdoors company Cabela’s, to urge sportsmen to urge Congress to stop the president.
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Wednesday night, Rep. Bob Goodlatte, the Republican chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, stepped in with a critical letter to the bureau demanding it explain the surprise and abrupt bullet ban. The letter is shown below.

The National Rifle Association, which is working with Goodlatte to gather co-signers, told Secrets that 30 House members have already co-signed the letter and Goodlatte and the NRA are hoping to get a total of 100 fast.

"The Obama administration was unable to ban America's most popular sporting rifle through the legislative process, so now it's trying to ban commonly owned and used ammunition through regulation," said Chris W. Cox, executive director of the NRA-ILA, the group's policy and lobby shop. "The NRA and our tens of millions of supporters across the country will fight to stop President Obama's latest attack on our Second Amendment freedoms."

At issue is so-called “armor-piercing” ammunition, an exemption for those bullets mostly used for sport by AR-15 owners, and the recent popularity of pistol-style ARs that use the ammo.

The inexpensive 5.56 M885 ammo, commonly called green tips, have been exempt for years, as have higher caliber ammunition that also easily pierces the type of soft armor worn by police, because it’s mostly used by target shooters, not criminals.

RELATED: Colorado politician who survived Columbine wants concealed carry in schools

But now BATFE says that since the bullets can be used in semi-automatic handguns they pose a threat to police and must be banned from production, sale and use. But, as Goodlatte noted, offered no proof. Federal agencies will still be allowed to buy the ammo.

“This round is amongst the most commonly used in the most popular rifle design in America, the AR-15. Millions upon millions of M855 rounds have been sold and used in the U.S., yet ATF has not even alleged — much less offered evidence — that even one such round has ever been fired from a handgun at a police officer,” said Goodlatte’s letter.

Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo., and a 17-year veteran police officer told the Springfield News-Leader. “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”

Many see the bullet ban as an assault on the AR-15 and Obama’s back-door bid to end production and sale.

“We are concerned,” said Justin Anderson with Hyatt Gun Shop in Charlotte, N.C., one of the nation’s top sellers of AR-15 style rifles. “Frankly, we're always concerned when the government uses back-door methods to impose quasi-gun control.”

Groups like the National Shooting Sports Foundation suggest that under BATFE’s new rule, other calibers like popular deer hunting .308 bullets could be banned because they also are used in AR-15s, some of which can be turned into pistol-style guns. “This will have a detrimental effect on hunting nationwide,” said the group.

link

[Mr Bean]

What's that, you don't want to do anything useful and want to make sure Hillary can't win North Carolina next year? This sounds like a plan!
Seriously however, yes 5.56mm can penetrate police armored vests, so can 7.62mm (And the cop behind the first cop and his vest too) so can everything else.

For comparison to those that don't know ammo here's a handy image to look at.

What the President wants to ban is number 16 on the rifle list. Because it penetrates police vests. Note that everything from 10 and up can penetrate police vests pretty reliably. On the pistol side anything 60 and up is pretty good at penetrating police vests because bullet proof vests are not that proof against bullets. And they only cover about 40% of the available places to shoot on a cop. So banning the most popular ammo in this case does less than nothing, you get a massive short term spike in demand for bullets then gun makers move onto another calibr .5mm smaller or bigger and millions of new guns get sold to use it.

*Edit social media thank you, this ban does not ban the 5.56mm only the particular projective that goes into it.... which is even more stupid.

[Grumman]

Assuming this is accurate, it certainly sounds like Obama's being a dodgy piece of shit. The 5.56x45mm round cannot reasonably be called a pistol bullet, and even if it is capable of piercing armour when fired from a rifle with a 20 inch barrel, that does not mean it will do the same when fired from a pistol.

[Zixinus]

This sounds to me like something the more idiotic NRA members would falsify to do another "they want to take our guns!" panic they love to make. Has anyone checked whether this is real? I sincerely doubt it is real.

Any useful rifle round will penetrate lower-grade bulletproof vests. Police bulletproof vests are usually meant to be effective against pistol rounds, not rifle-rounds.

[Vejut]

It probably will still do it fired from a pistol, even without the green tip ammo. IIRC, most police vests are class II or class IIIa (anything heavier than this is rigid, non-concealable hard plate armor). Class II is defined as what will stop 9mm Luger reliably. From here, 223 in a 7" barrel will have as much muzzle energy as a 9mm pistol bullet, but about a quarter the frontal area, which suggests even short barreled AR pistols will likely slide right through class II vests (though probably I should be talking things like momentum per area). Harder to say on class IIIa, that standard is to stop .44 Magnum, and in muzzle energy terms, you'd have to get into a full size 16" barrel to match the IIIa standard .44 for energy, but you're also talking a much, much smaller, lighter bullet. Still wouldn't surprise me if 223 would go through IIIa, making this ruling...rather spectacularly pointless.

That said, welcome to the other side of law by executive order. Things you don't favor are just as up for change by order as stuff you do.

Edit: just checked snopes. Its real, but its an ATF side thing as part of ongoing regulator work, not specifically an executive order.

[Dominus Atheos]

Snopes has the story, and 90% of it is false:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/ammoban.asp

MIXTURE:

TRUE: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives proposed a reclassification of "5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges" from "primarily used for sporting purposes" to "armor piercing ammunition."

FALSE: President Obama initiated the proposed reclassification or codified it through executive order or action.

Origins: On 13 February 2015, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) released a document [PDF] that proposed the reclassification of "5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges" from the category of "primarily used for sporting purposes" to that of "armor piercing ammunition." The 17-page document was titled
"ATF FRAMEWORK FOR DETERMINING WHETHER CERTAIN PROJECTILES ARE 'PRIMARILY INTENDED FOR SPORTING PURPOSES' WITHIN THE MEANING OF 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C)" and uploaded to ATF.gov, in part to enable interested parties to review it and submit comments before 16 March 2015.

The proposal cited the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act of 1986 (P.L. 99-408, known as "LEOPA") and referenced discussions with law enforcement agencies across the country about whether "green tip" ammunition could reasonably be construed as exempt under the 1986 guidelines. The publicly-available document noted that the potentially affected ammunition was not available to civilians at the time the exemption was initially granted and that it did not appear to meet the standard for a sporting purpose exemption:
Applying the sporting purposes framework set-forth above, the 5.56mm projectile that ATF exempted in 1986 does not qualify for an exemption because that projectile when loaded into SS109 and M855 cartridges may be used in a handgun other than a single-shot handgun. Specifically, 5.56mm projectiles loaded into the SS109 and M855 cartridges are commonly used Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a) in both "AR-type" rifles and "AR-type" handguns.

The AR platform is the semi-automatic version of the M16 machinegun originally designed for and used by the military. The AR-based handguns and rifles utilize the same magazines and share identical receivers. These AR-type handguns were not commercially available when the armor piercing ammunition exemption was granted in 1986. To ensure consistency, upon final implementation of the sporting purpose framework outlined above, ATF must withdraw the exemptions for 5.56 mm "green tip" ammunition, including both the SS109 and M855 cartridges.
The ATF's proposal was immediately controversial, particularly among advocates of gun rights. On 14 February 2015, a guns and ammunition retailer published a blog post titled "Obama to Outlaw .223 Ammunition (M855) Through Executive Action":
It is doubtful that anyone reading this article will truly be surprised that Obama and his cronies in key government posts are trying to once again de facto suppress our Second Amendment rights. They were not able to make it happen through the legislature, but Obama has his phone and his pen. Currently, it seems the President is using both to target gun owners, specifically owners of AR-15s. If you can't outlaw the guns, get rid of the ammunition.

The popularity of the AR-15/MSR is the reason it is a target of the Obama administration. The latest assault on the Second Amendment came after the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) unexpectedly announced on Friday the 13th that it intends to ban commonplace M855 ball ammunition as "armor piercing ammunition." Instead of going through the legislative process as intended, President Obama is using his executive authority to once again impose gun control measures.
Another blogger published an entry on 19 February 2015 which made similar claims:
President Obama is taking executive action to bypass Congressional authority and the will of the American people. This time the objective is backdoor gun control.

Obama is trying to justify the proposal by arguing that the M855 ball, the most widely used .233-caliber round, is "armor-piercing" and cannot be used in handguns, per the Gun Control Act of 1968 amended by Congress in 1986. He is also claiming that the ammunition in the AR-15 and similar rifles puts the lives of police officers at risk.
While it's true that the ATF proposed a ban on "green tip" ammunition in February 2015, President Obama was not involved through executive action of any description. The ATF described the proposal as the result of a long-term examination of whether the ammunition fit the criteria for an exemption for sporting purposes:
In light of recent developments in the firearm and ammunition marketplace, ATF sought input from industry, law enforcement organizations, and the general public on the application of the unique "sporting purpose" exemption set forth in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). In November 2012, ATF held four meetings with interested parties representing law enforcement, the firearms and ammunition industries, and non-governmental organizations. In addition, after completion of these meetings, ATF also solicited and accepted comments from the general public through December 31, 2012. All of that input was considered in interpreting the meaning of the statutory language, and developing the framework described below.

Also, since I didn't know what "green tip" ammo was, I googled it an this was the first result:

http://www.itstactical.com/warcom/ammun ... -piercing/

June 6, 2011

Throughout my time in the Military, I’d always referred to M855/SS109 5.56 Ammunition (Green Tip) as armor piercing rounds or AP. For the life of me I can’t recall where I first heard that mentioned, but it was fairly common for it to be referred to as that.



As you’ll see, I have the green tip marked “AP Tip,” which is how I explained my training aid to the class as well. (If you’re wondering, it was made from a cardboard tube, floral foam, paint and a little creative thinking).

After a few people pointed out that M855 isn’t AP in the Facebook comments of the photo I posted, I started doing some digging. It turns out that sure enough, M855 was removed from the ATF’s list of AP rounds. I haven’t been able to track down when this change took place, but I thought it was important to share to all those that have considered M855 to be AP rounds like I did.

So besides the ATF's previous definition, the round has been considered armor piercing before.

[Zeropoint]

Ah, it's good to know the truth on that. I wonder how many right-wing types will care.

(For the record, while I'm more "left" inasmuch as a single axis can describe political ideals, I'm also enjoy collecting and shooting firearms.)

I may be misunderstanding things, but isn't this a ban on one specific projectile? People will still be able to get and shoot 5.56 mm and .223 ammuntion?

Still, it does seem pretty pointless and likely to produce far more trouble for honest shooters than security for law enforcement.

[Dominus Atheos]

So to sum up:

1. It's not an executive order
2. Obama's not even involved
3. It's not all 5.56mm bullets, just one specific subtype.
4. The subtype has been considered to be Armor Piercing before

[Joun_Lord]

This sounds to me like something the more idiotic NRA members would falsify to do another "they want to take our guns!" panic they love to make. Has anyone checked whether this is real? I sincerely doubt it is real.

Any useful rifle round will penetrate lower-grade bulletproof vests. Police bulletproof vests are usually meant to be effective against pistol rounds, not rifle-rounds.

For once this isn't just an unfounded panic intended to drive up prices, not that it isn't driving up prices though. A quick google search shows that this ban is quite real with even real news sites talking 'bout it Willis. Also plenty of crackpot and loony bin sites. Heres a [http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminite ... ifle-ammo/]Forbes[/url] link showing it really realness.

This kinda validates what I said awhile back in another thread about how some people can use handgun ammo bans to ban rifle ammo considering any bullet can be used in a handgun, even .50 BMG. Though when I said that I was just conjecturing an unlikely possibility not thinking it would actually happen.

But it did. Clearly this means I can see the future. I think I need to go play the lottery.

[TheFeniX]

Even some police don’t buy the administration’s claim. “Criminals aren't going to go out and buy a $1,000 AR pistol,” Brent Ball, owner of 417 Guns in Springfield, Mo., and a 17-year veteran police officer told the Springfield News-Leader. “As a police officer I'm not worried about AR pistols because you can see them. It's the small gun in a guy's hand you can't see that kills you.”

Couldn't have said it better. Comparing "pistol-style" ARs to actual pistols is like comparing a .500SW to a compact 9mm. Yes, they are both pistols, but concealing the .500SW is next to impossible. Hell, my .357 Magnum is nearly impossible to conceal due to the old-style wood-grips.

This is the kind of shit I think they're talking about. Not only are they nowhere near actual pistol-sized, they are hideously expensive and impractical to work with when your goal is to not kill people, but to score an easy payday. Actually having to use your weapon, outside of intimidation, is counter-productive to most crime being committed in the US.

Those actually concerned with killing cops aren't going to give two shits about either concealability (at least up until they get close) or money involved because those people are suicidal anyways.

[Flagg]

Dear dragon,
You are so fucking dumb, dude. You didn't even bother to make the "article" you posted halfway legible. Luckily the snopes.com article on this makes you look even dumber than your formatting. I mean if you can't take the extra 90 seconds to make the posted article legible, why the fuck should anyone waste their time reading it?

Yours in Christ,
Flagg.

[Edi]

Anyone who trusts the Washington Examiner to tell the truth when they say the sun rises in the east and water is wet, without having it independently fact-checked by at least two different known reliable sources, deserves all the ridicule coming their way.

Seriously, it's at that level of reliability.

[Beowulf]

So to sum up:

1. It's not an executive order

Not claimed. Executive action does not require Executive Orders. It's just an action by an executive agency.

1. Obama's not even involved

The ATF falls under the Executive Branch, which is ultimately controlled by the President. It may be most accurate to describe it as being done by the ATF, but describing it as an action of the Obama administration is not inaccurate, any more than pinning the NSA spying on everyone on him is not inaccurate.

1. It's not all 5.56mm bullets, just one specific subtype.

Although true, the M855 round is one of the most popular 5.56 rounds, in large part due to the fact it's the current military production.

1. The subtype has been considered to be Armor Piercing before

Yes and no. It's an Armor Piercing round as much as a M2 Bradley is a tank. The M855 round has always been called a "ball" round by the US military, indicating it's not specially armor piercing, but it normal issue ammunition. The US Army AP round of choice is the M995, which has a tungsten core. The ATF definition of AP comes from 18 USC 921a17B:

The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(ii) does not apply, as it is .22 caliber. (i) also does not apply, as the projectile core is a steel/lead composite, and it must be constructed entirely from the listed materials. In the M855A1, the core is replaced with copper... but that still doesn't meet the requirements of 921a, as straight copper is still not a listed material, just beryllium copper, brass, and bronze.

[Grumman]

Although true, the M855 round is one of the most popular 5.56 rounds, in large part due to the fact it's the current military production.

The M855A1 being intended as a more environmentally friendly round that doesn't have any lead in it probably doesn't hurt, either.

[Dark Hellion]

Dear dragon,
You are so fucking dumb, dude. You didn't even bother to make the "article" you posted halfway legible. Luckily the snopes.com article on this makes you look even dumber than your formatting. I mean if you can't take the extra 90 seconds to make the posted article legible, why the fuck should anyone waste their time reading it?

Yours in Christ,
Flagg.

Flagg, was this actually necessary? This is literally a post designed not to contribute anything new to the thread at all and only to make fun of another member.

As for the issue itself, this seems like the classic situation that always occurs in any kind of gun control action in America. There is a response to a "we gotta do something" mentallity that is to do something, anything, with very little examination into whether the action will actually be consequential. And then the NRA crowd screams bloody murder about "they're here to take our guns!" when the actual action is far more restricted and will have far less effect than they imply.

Honestly, I wish that the level of political discourse in the U.S. had not sunk to this level where both sides of major issues just talk past each other and make moves that have little chance of convincing the other side of anything. It is so blatantly counterproductive and childish.