Austria passes new law legitimizing Islam

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Austria passes new law legitimizing Islam

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Austria decided to piss all over freedom of religion and equality in a manner that honestly reminds me of 1930's Germany.

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The law requires imams to preach in German, closes mosques of fewer than 300 people, and bars foreign funding of Muslim organizations. The government says it will give Islam an 'Austrian character,' but many say it is anti-Islam.
By Robert Marquand, Staff writer FEBRUARY 26, 2015
Heinz-Peter Bader/Reuters/FileView Caption
The Austrian parliament Wednesday singled out Islam as a faith by passing a law that restricts its adherents' religious activities. The new “Law on Islam” bars outside funding of Islamic religious communities, forces small mosques to close within a year, and requires imams to preach in German.

Analysts say the law, which the parliament passed overwhelmingly, is an attempt to “Austrianize” Islam and bring more official oversight of the faith at a time when fears of radicalization are rife in Europe.

The law lays down regulation that aren't required of faiths like Christianity and Judaism. It amends a 1912 law, considered progressive at the time, that recognized Islam as an official faith.

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Austrian Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz, a popular new face on the political right, has described the effort as bringing an “Islam with an Austrian character.” He denies the move is directly tied to fears of jihadi groups like Islamic State following extremist attacks in France and Denmark.

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"What we want is to reduce the political influence and control from abroad and we want to give Islam the chance to develop freely within our society and in line with our common European values," Mr. Kurz told the BBC yesterday.

Austria's largest Muslim organization, IGGiO, appeared to accept the new law, Reuters reports, though many smaller groups – including IGGiO's youth arm – vocally opposed it.

Muslim nations and a variety of prominent Islamic figures also slammed the new rules as prejudicial and as stigmatizing Muslims as a collective threat. Mehmet Gormez, president of Turkish religious affairs, said that "Austria will reverse 100 years of religious freedom with its Islam bill."

An estimated six to seven percent of Austria’s population – some 500,000 people – are Muslim, many of them of Turkish descent. Islam is numerically the No. 2 faith in the capital Vienna, after Roman Catholicism.

Analysts say the new law, which will cause Austrian imams who receive support from abroad to lose their funding and potentially their visas, seeks to curtail religious exchange between the Islamic crescent and the land-locked Alpine state. Kurz, the foreign minister, has openly said that Austria wants more “control” over the development of its Muslim community.

Austrian authorities point out the bill will promote and extend an official Islam by encouraging and sanctioning new protections and affirmative aspects like Muslim imams in hospitals, and as clergy in the military.

As the law takes effect, it will require mosques with more than 300 people to register, and, according to Reuters, will require “any group claiming to represent Austrian Muslims to submit and use a standardized German translation of the Koran.”

Enes Bayraklı, professor at Istanbul's Turkish-German University, was quoted by OnIslam.net as saying the lack of equal religious treatment in the bill will increase anger and radicalism among Austria’s followers of the prophet, a reversal of the bill's purported intent:

A paranoid fear is being instilled in society. Muslims in Austria have never engaged in terrorism or extremism in Austria thus far, Bayraklı said. Taking into consideration the peaceful atmosphere in Austria, the government's purpose seems to be nothing but an engineering and social manipulation project.”
Both Austria and Switzerland have been restricting the building of mosques and minarets for nearly a decade. Yet the threat of IS has brought new attention to Muslims in Europe, as The Christian Science Monitor recently pointed out. Austrian authorities say there are an estimated 170 persons that have traveled to war-torn Syria.

Austrian right-wing groups today called the new law on Islam an insufficient measure to combat a faith they openly criticize. Reuters writes that:

...,the opposition far-right Freedom Party, which opposed the bill as too mild, attracts about 25 percent support with an anti-immigrant stance that is also highly critical of Islam. Meanwhile, the ruling Socialist and conservative parties struggle to muster a majority together.

Austria's neighbor Germany has also experienced an upsurge of anti-Islam sentiment in the form of the weekly PEGIDA protests in Dresden.

These have, however, been met with much larger anti-racism demonstrations and a robust response from Chancellor Angela Merkel, mindful of Nazi Germany's persecution of Jews, who asserted that "Islam belongs to Germany."

Austria Passes 'Law on Islam' Banning Foreign Money for Muslim Groups
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And yes, I know the source is the Christian Science Monitor, and its reasonable to be suspicious of any source that uses an oxymoron in its name, but at least some of this does seem to be backed up by other sources.
Last edited by Thanas on 2015-02-28 03:49pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title edited to reflect the actual law and not shitty news articles
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Thanas »

Sigh. Let's review the provisions in the law, using a real news source:

Basically, it gives Islam the same rights as the christian churches and sets out what is to be considered canon (Koran and Hadithe). It also demands services to be held in German, like the christian churches. The names of muslim communities are now protected (like christian churches) and if anybody slanders them, the offenders can be punished by law.
Muslim communities now have the right by law to be heard in legal matters or laws.
Muslim priests - like christians - now have the status of priests. This means, Immans will be paid by the state. They can now work as chaplains in the military, schools, hospitals etc. It is in this context that the prohibition of outside funding should be seen. Because they are now state employees one is not allowed to fund them.
Traditional muslim heritages and values are now protected by law.
Muslim slaughter practices are excempted from animal protection laws.
There will be muslim studies in universities funded by the state.
Muslim cemetaries are now protected as such by law.

BTW, the model for this law was the law regulating the activities of the Jewish faith. What this law does is provide a lot of privileges and accepts Islam as one of the officially recognized faiths.

And btw it is especially disingenious from the US source to imply that Sebastian Kurtz is a right-winger that hates Islam by writing:
Austrian Foreign Minister Sebastian Kurz, a popular new face on the political right, has described the effort as bringing an “Islam with an Austrian character.” He denies the move is directly tied to fears of jihadi groups like Islamic State following extremist attacks in France and Denmark.
[...]
Austria's neighbor Germany has also experienced an upsurge of anti-Islam sentiment in the form of the weekly PEGIDA protests in Dresden.

These have, however, been met with much larger anti-racism demonstrations and a robust response from Chancellor Angela Merkel, mindful of Nazi Germany's persecution of Jews, who asserted that "Islam belongs to Germany."
Guess who also said that? Sebastian Kurtz, who said that "Islam belongs to Austria".


Honestly, this is a very poorly written article that does not even compare the new provisions against the existing law (of 1912!).
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

And yes, I know the source is the Christian Science Monitor, and its reasonable to be suspicious of any source that uses an oxymoron in its name, but at least some of this does seem to be backed up by other sources.
Actually, the Christian Science Monitor is one of the better online publications. Barring the inclusion of a religious-themed article in each issue, it is independent of the Church of Christ Scientist in every respect, and does not promote the doctrine of its parent church. It was founded in response to Yellow Journalism, and they have kept their standards high for over a century.

Now, as Thanas points out, you cannot win them all. This article has.... issues. However, it is worth noting that the degree of religious interference is worrying anyway. To wit, closing small mosques. It makes sense from a state-security standpoint (it is easier for an Imam to radicalize a small congregation, or gather around them 300 radicals, than it is for larger groups), but 300 people would be a sizable congregation by any standard. That is a small towns muslim population right there, to say nothing of sectarian differences.
Basically, it gives Islam the same rights as the christian churches and sets out what is to be considered canon (Koran and Hadithe).
To what extent is the doctrine itself controlled by the state?
It also demands services to be held in German, like the christian churches.
In Islam, Arabic is the liturgical language. The same with hebrew in orthodox jewish communities. For them, conducting religious services in those languages is itself a religious requirement. Encouraging them to use German is one thing. Requiring it is another.

Saying it is just like the Christian churches is a bit disingenuous, because post Vatican II, they are all done in German anyway. Did the Austrian government force catholic churches to conduct mass in German prior to Vatican II? I dont know, but I would guess the answer is no. Thanas, feel free to correct me there.
Muslim priests - like christians - now have the status of priests. This means, Immans will be paid by the state. They can now work as chaplains in the military, schools, hospitals etc. It is in this context that the prohibition of outside funding should be seen. Because they are now state employees one is not allowed to fund them.
This makes sense.
There will be muslim studies in universities funded by the state.
Muslim cemetaries are now protected as such by law.
Was this not the case already? Or by Muslim Studies, do you mean Muslim seminary programs to train Imams? The same with chaplains.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Thanas, unless you can show that the claims about the prohibition of Islamic groups getting money from foreign sources, requiring the use of German, and forcing small mosques to close, and Islam being treated differently from other faiths, are outright fabricated, I'm not sure how you can defend this law.

Edit: A source in German is not of much use to me, I'm afraid, as I do not speak it.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Certainly I have heard that this law gives some new benefits to Muslims, and that's nice. But it doesn't mean that their aren't other provisions in the law that are indefensible. Nor does it mean that this degree of government regulation of religion, supportive or repressive, is something I would be comfortable with.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Flagg »

I don't... I don't see the problem. I'd say you owe Austria an apology but they gave us Hitler and Governor Schwarzenegger. But we can set our hair on fire and run around screaming nonsense if you want.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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You don't see a problem with a government singling out a religion and restricting it in various ways that serve no good purpose?

I admit that the Nazi comparison was a low shot on my part, but I did honestly feel like there was a resemblance, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who will feel that way.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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I'd guess closing small mosques is because they are now state funded, like the churches. I would be very surprised if the same limits did not apply there
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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And its going to fuck over Muslims in small towns like Alyrium Denryle alluded to.

And for me the idea of state funded religion is a whole other thing to take issue with.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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I don't really like the requirement to preach in a specific language, that smells like the first step towards forced integration. Language carries core cultural concepts that aren't always translated in a manner that fully grasps the original.

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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by LaCroix »

It's not singled out - this law is a step forward as Islam is no longer a second rate religion, anymore. It's given the same rules and benefits as the Jewish faith and Christianity are operating under, already. Benefits as protection of traditions and holidays, official state religionhood, eating rules. Things they didn't have, yet.
The thing about using German is a general thing- they are not forced to do that, only encouraged.

The two biggest groups, Islamische Glaubensgemeinschaft in Österreich (IGGiÖ), and Islamische Alevitische Glaubensgemeinschaft (ALEVI) had both a say in this law.
Both have made statements welcoming this law as a big progress and good for Islam.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Restricting the financing for Islamic groups is always a good thing. Especially when the funding comes from rabid Wahabists who have been responsible for a good tonne of muck for the last few decades.

Islam was never as fundamentalist as it always has been and if it were, it was mostly localised in the Middle East.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Restricting the financing for Islamic groups is always a good thing. Especially when the funding comes from rabid Wahabists who have been responsible for a good tonne of muck for the last few decades.

Islam was never as fundamentalist as it always has been and if it were, it was mostly localised in the Middle East.

Well, when Mosques are trying to upkeep their buildings and pay their Imams without state funding, restricting their financing is basically just a way to smother them.

With state funding, it becomes a non-issue, and if the civil servant circle is expanded to include religious groups (I assume under the aegis of performing public good etc), then restricting external funding is equivalent to avoiding civil corruption.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Thanas, unless you can show that the claims about the prohibition of Islamic groups getting money from foreign sources, requiring the use of German, and forcing small mosques to close, and Islam being treated differently from other faiths, are outright fabricated, I'm not sure how you can defend this law.
I can easily defend it. The funding is a state issue. As the immans are now state servants, they are not allowed to be paid from other sources than the state. Case closed.
Edit: A source in German is not of much use to me, I'm afraid, as I do not speak it.
Google translate is your friend, or you can ask me or any other German/Austrian/Hungarian to translate. We all know that German is a challenge (apparently to the authors of this dreck as well who were too stupid to read the law in itself).
Alyrium Denryle wrote:To what extent is the doctrine itself controlled by the state?
If previous treatment is any indication, what matters is that the church does not preach against the state in an undemocratic manner. The other parts of the doctrine are left to the theologians. So no preaching murdering all christians or jews.
In Islam, Arabic is the liturgical language. The same with hebrew in orthodox jewish communities. For them, conducting religious services in those languages is itself a religious requirement. Encouraging them to use German is one thing. Requiring it is another.
I see no reason to assume that this is a ban against theological texts being read in their original languages. However, the other parts of the sermon should be conducted in German for the simple reason that most European muslims no longer speak or even understand arabic.

BTW, guess who already preaches in German? Radical groupings on the internet who want to get new followers - and who are easily misled because the Saudi-sponsored Imman from the local mosque does not preach in German either. Guess who was the first muslim group in Germany/Austria to hand out the Koran in a German translation? The radical salafists.

Ultimately, the law comes down to this: Shall Islam get the same treatment and restrictions as any other religion in Austria? The answer this law gives is yes, with some exceptions that are beneficial for muslims - for example, Islam gets special exemption from animal cruelty laws and circumcision is allowed.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Thanas, unless you can show that the claims about the prohibition of Islamic groups getting money from foreign sources, requiring the use of German, and forcing small mosques to close, and Islam being treated differently from other faiths, are outright fabricated, I'm not sure how you can defend this law.
I can easily defend it. The funding is a state issue. As the immans are now state servants, they are not allowed to be paid from other sources than the state. Case closed.
Only addresses some of my points. Also, I object to the idea of the state funding a religion and the leaders of a religion all working for the state, but that's a separate issue from weather Muslims are being persecuted.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Thanas, unless you can show that the claims about the prohibition of Islamic groups getting money from foreign sources, requiring the use of German, and forcing small mosques to close, and Islam being treated differently from other faiths, are outright fabricated, I'm not sure how you can defend this law.
I can easily defend it. The funding is a state issue. As the immans are now state servants, they are not allowed to be paid from other sources than the state. Case closed.
Only addresses some of my points. Also, I object to the idea of the state funding a religion and the leaders of a religion all working for the state, but that's a separate issue from weather Muslims are being persecuted.
Your other points are addressed in the post and in those made by others. Read again.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

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Thanas wrote:Ultimately, the law comes down to this: Shall Islam get the same treatment and restrictions as any other religion in Austria? The answer this law gives is yes, with some exceptions that are beneficial for muslims - for example, Islam gets special exemption from animal cruelty laws and circumcision is allowed.
Question: do Jews also get those exemptions for religious-approved animal slaughter and circumcision? (I presume yes, just want it to be absolutely clear).

While I can certainly see quibbling about different ways of treating organized religion in a given nation, if all such religions are treated equally fairly then that is a plus in many ways. It seems to me this law offers protection more than restriction, even if there are some restrictions involved.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Thanas »

Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:Ultimately, the law comes down to this: Shall Islam get the same treatment and restrictions as any other religion in Austria? The answer this law gives is yes, with some exceptions that are beneficial for muslims - for example, Islam gets special exemption from animal cruelty laws and circumcision is allowed.
Question: do Jews also get those exemptions for religious-approved animal slaughter and circumcision? (I presume yes, just want it to be absolutely clear).
Animal slaughter, yes. Circumcision - there is no special exemption clause like in the newer Islam law, but nobody has ever been punished for circumcision, so it seems to be allowed. Most likely the special clause resulted from the current debate about circumcision in Europe.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Flagg »

So we've decided to go with "running around with our hair on fire", I see. Don't you love it when people who are totally ignorant to how a system works somehow gathers the balls it takes to flat out tell someone who clearly knows the system that they don't know what they are talking about and should go into a fit of hysteria over absolutely nothing?
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Simon_Jester »

I'm going to assume Flagg accidentally posted in this thread when he meant to talk about something else...
Thanas wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Thanas, unless you can show that the claims about the prohibition of Islamic groups getting money from foreign sources, requiring the use of German, and forcing small mosques to close, and Islam being treated differently from other faiths, are outright fabricated, I'm not sure how you can defend this law.
I can easily defend it. The funding is a state issue. As the immans are now state servants, they are not allowed to be paid from other sources than the state. Case closed.
Personally I am thinking that I might object to the entire concept of making all clergy be state employees.

"Separation of church and state" is a fairly common constitutional idea.

If state control of which imams it will or will not pay is being used to close down religious communities in areas where it is 'inefficient' to fund a mosque, then that presents serious problems for people who intend to practice the Muslim religion.

My choice to practice a religion should not be defined by the state's decision to practice budget cuts.
I see no reason to assume that this is a ban against theological texts being read in their original languages. However, the other parts of the sermon should be conducted in German for the simple reason that most European muslims no longer speak or even understand arabic.
But why make this a requirement? If European Muslims want to attend services in a liturgical language they cannot follow, and get it translated later or not at all, why would that not be their choice?
Ultimately, the law comes down to this: Shall Islam get the same treatment and restrictions as any other religion in Austria? The answer this law gives is yes...
I think I might reasonably object to some of the ways that Austria treats and restricts all its religions, especially the part where they can close down a religious institution if they decide not to pay its clergy.
...with some exceptions that are beneficial for muslims - for example, Islam gets special exemption from animal cruelty laws and circumcision is allowed.
This part I am separating out simply because I have nothing to say to it, positive or negative.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Flagg »

Simple_Simon_Jester wrote:I'm going to assume Flagg accidentally posted in this thread when he meant to talk about something else...
Nope. And if you possessed an ounce of reading comprehension you'd know that. Go be a smarmy obtuse twat somewhere else, please.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Oh, I'm sorry. Because I'm trying to figure out which of the above posts you characterize as "running around with our heads on fire."

And it's not easy.

Aside from one intemperate Nazi comparison, everyone seems fairly moderate in tone. Sure, they're disagreeing with Austrian religious law, but it's not like it's impossible to disagree with such a law in a respectful, intelligent way. Especially when it does in fact violate some constitutional principles that other nations take rather seriously like separation of church and state.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Flagg »

Every post by TRR have been of the "Hair on fire!" Variety. And you'll find that many if not most European countries have no "separation of church and state", and even take tithes out of your taxes should you be a member of that faith.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Coop D'etat »

Simon_Jester wrote: Especially when it does in fact violate some constitutional principles that other nations take rather seriously like separation of church and state.
I think your American myopia is showing here. Many quite respectable, secular, highly developed countries get along just fine without that as a constitional principle. In fact, if you look at the first world, you'll find the American notion of separation of church and state on terms that would forbid clerics from being state employees would be very much in the minority outside of the U, S of A.

For one thing, if we are gettin really technical, it isn't a constitutional principle at all, but a quote from Tomas Jefferson. More importantly though, separation of church and state is quite distinct as a concept from freedom of religion. One is a crucial right to run an open, pluralistic society, the other is a particular means to achieve that concept.
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Re: Why Austria can go fuck itself.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Flagg wrote:Every post by TRR have been of the "Hair on fire!" Variety. And you'll find that many if not most European countries have no "separation of church and state", and even take tithes out of your taxes should you be a member of that faith.
I see at least two that are hair-on-suppressant-foam, and more that allow for a moderate response. Just because TRR disagrees with you doesn't mean he's crazy or panicking.
Coop D'etat wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote: Especially when it does in fact violate some constitutional principles that other nations take rather seriously like separation of church and state.
I think your American myopia is showing here. Many quite respectable, secular, highly developed countries get along just fine without that as a constitional principle.
Pause.

I think you're assuming that I must think this is a thing 99% of all countries have, with Austria being the only holdout. I don't, and I didn't say I did think so.

What I do think is that quite a few countries have policies on the freedom of religion that at least allow religions to operate without state approval. I am critcizing the Austrian policy on the grounds that it effectively does not allow religions to operate without state approval. And they are not only required to get state approval of their willingness to abide by laws, but also of details of their liturgy ("you can't talk in a foreign language!") and the locations where they open places of worship ("we won't let you have a mosque here, there aren't enough Muslims, even if the ones who ARE here want to pay you themselves!").
In fact, if you look at the first world, you'll find the American notion of separation of church and state on terms that would forbid clerics from being state employees would be very much in the minority outside of the U, S of A.
The US does adopt an unusually extreme form of separation of church and state.

I would argue that when you mandate that all clergymen of a major religion be state employees who are not allowed to open temples to their god in locations not approved by the state, or who are not allowed to even run such temples on the charity of their own worshippers... That is a fairly extreme form of the union of church and state.

[And before you tell me that's not how it works in Austria, I'm directly getting this from Thanas's statement: "I can easily defend it. The funding is a state issue. As the immans are now state servants, they are not allowed to be paid from other sources than the state. Case closed."]

Because the array of means by which that method of putting all clergy on the state's payroll can be abused in order to oppress a particular religion is... blindingly obvious. There is real potential for abuse here, and I think that the current arrangement is questionable.
For one thing, if we are gettin really technical, it isn't a constitutional principle at all, but a quote from Tomas Jefferson.
When 'constitutional principle' is spelled with a lower-case 'c,' it means 'a principle that is part of how the country governs itself,' not 'a principle that is spelled out in the government's founding document.' Separation of church and state happens to be a fundamental part of how the US government approaches (or doesn't approach) religion... even if the only mention of that in the Constitution itself is about not making an established church.

Therefore it is a 'constitutional' principle, in the same sense that the nation of Great Britain has a 'constitution' even if it isn't written down officially anywhere.
More importantly though, separation of church and state is quite distinct as a concept from freedom of religion. One is a crucial right to run an open, pluralistic society, the other is a particular means to achieve that concept.
I would argue that when church and state are unified under state control to the extent that Austria does it, freedom of religion is undermined.

Because again, the Austrian government is apparently using its power to legislate details of how a religious institution operates to exercise control over the liturgy of that religion. And to control where places of worship can and cannot be opened. Those are pretty basic decisions impacting whether members of a religion really ARE free to practice it.
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