Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by fgalkin »

Mange wrote:"Not beneficial to Putin"? I doubt that, especially as tsar Putin always can blame it on an external foe. Case in point, the channel ITV, which is majority-owned by Gazprom (which, in itself, is unbelievable) has already declared that the people responsible for the murder can be found in the US or Ukraine: NTV

I want to stress that I don't think that Putin was involved in the killing, but he is at the very least responsible for having created such an atmosphere. Legitimate NGO's are labelled "foreign agents" (including the Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia) and people are labelled traitors.
So….just like the US after 9/11, then? Also, the foreign agent thing is basically copied word-for-word from a US law, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Have a very nice day.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

NGOs ARE traitorous foreign agents, Fima is right, we have the exact same laws about them in the US. I'll admit to my country's hypocrisy willingly: The US has the exact same beliefs and laws as Russia, and engages in the exact same kinds of propaganda, we just do it for our own ends, which happen to oppose Russia's. We'd never let NGOs promote democracy in our country; we'd kill election monitors in the streets. That's just a fact, and I'm mature enough to admit it and call the government out for condemning Russia over the same kinds of things.

The simple fact of the matter is that Nemtsov was assassinated for opposing the annexation of the Crimean and the war in the Donbass by ultranationalists, who are the real people who stand to profit. The opposition has allowed the inclusion of ultranationalists, just like it has in the Ukraine, so if the liberal opposition (not like Nemtsov was anything other than a faux-liberal) is destroyed, the National-Bolsheviks profit by being able to cannibalize them. I'm sure they'll get Navalny next if he's ever let out of prison, and why not? Putin is the best possible leader for Russia right now, and perhaps he made it that way, but the fact remains that he won't be overthrown by democrats but rather by ultranationalists if he falls, people who have grown more emboldened and confident by their military experience and large popular support they've rallied because of course, the vast majority of Russians know that Donbass is Russian and are willing to support their ideals for Novorossiya, and privately even Navalny and Nemtsov said they wouldn't return Crimean without a UN-supervised plebiscite indicating a majority in favor of Ukraine, which is a perfectly reasonable position to have! Kasparov, who is a worthless lunatic, immediately declaimed them as Putin-lite for this.

I love this quote on just what Nemtsov was really like:
The vocal opposition leader had picked a plush coffee shop to sound off, to the distinct displeasure of several paying customers. Suspiciously tanned and jarringly arrogant, this fanatical surfer and tennis player had slowly outplayed the moody chessmaster Garry Kasparov to seize the underwhelming title of pre-eminent leader of the Russian opposition. He ordered a few cognacs, then blasted out, 'I am indeed Boris Nemtsov' to a curious couple to our left. He then began showing off his latest acqusition: a delicate, finely crafted watch.
'This is a present for Gorbachev. Look, it's got "Gorbachev Forever" inscribed inside.' He laughed a little. Nemtsov's exorbitantly priced tuna.... [...]
...After finishing his sandwich and downing his cognac Nemtsov lamented: 'The reason the opposition has been so ineffective is that the vast majority of Russians live out in the regions. They only have state TV out there... And we are strictly banned from being featured on it.' Milov nodded thoughtfully.
From a book I believe "falling out of love with Putin's Russia" or something like that I read a while ago. It shows how corrupt and self-affected and boorish all of this nominal democratic heroes are, which is why everyone in Russia actually hates them except for a certain coterie of upper-middle-class city liberals in Petersburg and Moskva. And of course he was shot dead while romantically walking over a bridge with his 23-year old Ukrainian model girlfriend by some professional killers, probably rightwing paramilitaries who've been fighting in the Caucasus, driving a Ford Mondeo of all things. A thoroughly absurdist end to an absurd man (what kind of nutcase, having real information condemning an authoritarian government, strolls down the street next to its headquarters with his squeeze instead of being holed up in a safehouse? -- oh right, he had found nothing new. Everyone knows that Russia is supporting the Donbass, and he could add nothing to that knowledge except a blowhard press conference!).
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:NGOs ARE traitorous foreign agents, Fima is right, we have the exact same laws about them in the US. I'll admit to my country's hypocrisy willingly: The US has the exact same beliefs and laws as Russia, and engages in the exact same kinds of propaganda, we just do it for our own ends, which happen to oppose Russia's. We'd never let NGOs promote democracy in our country; we'd kill election monitors in the streets.
I think it would depend on who was monitoring the election and on whose behalf. Well within living memory you could, no doubt, find areas in the rural south where the white majority would target as 'carpetbaggers' and be quite happy to kill off an election monitor trying to make sure blacks got to vote properly. At least, if they could get away with the killing.

Today, under circumstances readily imaginable to me... I'm not so sure.

That said, I do note that it is normal for nations to forbid any foreign organization from participating in or funding any part of their election cycle.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Simon_Jester wrote:
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:NGOs ARE traitorous foreign agents, Fima is right, we have the exact same laws about them in the US. I'll admit to my country's hypocrisy willingly: The US has the exact same beliefs and laws as Russia, and engages in the exact same kinds of propaganda, we just do it for our own ends, which happen to oppose Russia's. We'd never let NGOs promote democracy in our country; we'd kill election monitors in the streets.
I think it would depend on who was monitoring the election and on whose behalf. Well within living memory you could, no doubt, find areas in the rural south where the white majority would target as 'carpetbaggers' and be quite happy to kill off an election monitor trying to make sure blacks got to vote properly. At least, if they could get away with the killing.

Today, under circumstances readily imaginable to me... I'm not so sure.

That said, I do note that it is normal for nations to forbid any foreign organization from participating in or funding any part of their election cycle.
The thing is, most countries really really do not like another country preaching to them about the virtues of their system over theirs. It invites tribal ring fencing and so forth. Most people know their system has a problem here and there, but when it comes to some filthy outsider who thinks he knows better, they would rather damn the outsider and kick him out.

Americans are really no different, and for all the huffing and puffing over the human rights issues that cropped up over the last decade or so, fundamentally, nothing has changed. Guantanamo remains open, and even if closed, it will simply melt away and pop up in a different form.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:NGOs ARE traitorous foreign agents, Fima is right, we have the exact same laws about them in the US. I'll admit to my country's hypocrisy willingly: The US has the exact same beliefs and laws as Russia, and engages in the exact same kinds of propaganda, we just do it for our own ends, which happen to oppose Russia's. We'd never let NGOs promote democracy in our country; we'd kill election monitors in the streets. That's just a fact, and I'm mature enough to admit it and call the government out for condemning Russia over the same kinds of things.
Didn't the OSCE or someone like that have people monitoring the 2012 election?
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

They were told they were not allowed to enter polling stations under threat of arrest, and did not enter them. OSCE is our bitch.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

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According to the OSCE, they visited polling stations in thirteen states and DC in 2012. The threats to arrest people happened on a state and county level. Bonus points for those who can guess where that was.

Going through their backlogs, they've been doing this since 2002. Shootings on street (or anywhere): zero.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

That doesn't change the fact that they were threatened with arrest in certain states if they entered polling stations and complied with those threats and did not enter the polling stations. I mean you know, if they conducted inspections in only 13 states that tells me that they complied with legislation, like Russia's, banning them from their monitoring and compliance mission in those other 37 states; and of course since the OSCE is a creature of America, they didn't complain about this. In short the prospective violence often threatened by US conservative activist groups is unnecessary because they're complying with US legislation that bans them from doing their job, because we basically own them. Of course, when the OSCE is being used to advance American interests, people do go after them, as in Donbass.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

All I see here is another effort of pedantic nitpickery to discredit the thrust and content of my argument by going after the hyperbole I've always had trouble not indulging in. Do I concede that the presence of election monitors alone, absent some other combination of conditions, won't result in armed violence in the US? Yes, yes, I do, fine! Now talk about what I'm really talking about, you moron!
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Mange »

fgalkin wrote:
Mange wrote:"Not beneficial to Putin"? I doubt that, especially as tsar Putin always can blame it on an external foe. Case in point, the channel ITV, which is majority-owned by Gazprom (which, in itself, is unbelievable) has already declared that the people responsible for the murder can be found in the US or Ukraine: NTV

I want to stress that I don't think that Putin was involved in the killing, but he is at the very least responsible for having created such an atmosphere. Legitimate NGO's are labelled "foreign agents" (including the Union of the Committees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia) and people are labelled traitors.
So….just like the US after 9/11, then? Also, the foreign agent thing is basically copied word-for-word from a US law, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
That's bullcrap and you know it. You know, just as well as I do, that the term carried a certain connotation in Soviet times. As for the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA). FARA was introduced in 1938 (not after 9/11) to regulate state-sponsored National socialist and Communist propaganda. It shifted to lobbyism and has, with time, became diluted and not a single criminal case has been won by the U.S. state since it last was amended in '66. Furthermore, FARA, unlike the Russian law, is not aimed towards NGOs and only TRUE "foreign principals" unlike the Russian foreign agent law that both targets NGOs and doesn't make a distinction between foreign or domestic NGOs (such as the absurd example I mentioned). So no, it's not "basically copied word-for-word". It has become an instrument to control domestic NGOs and organizations that the Russian government find objectionable.

In Russia, an NGO can't operate without going through a tedious registration process and submit to all kinds of audits. In the U.S., the state can't even demand that "foreign principals" register (there are for example Russian-funded think-tanks in the U.S. that haven't registered: Institute of Modern Russia).
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Why yes, Mange, we don't need laws like that, because we have the legal authority and national technical means to record everything they send via their phones, internet, and even traditional mails.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Why yes, Mange, we don't need laws like that, because we have the legal authority and national technical means to record everything they send via their phones, internet, and even traditional mails.
To make it clear, I'm not an American. However, I do believe that the United States is one of the countries in the world where NGOs can operate the most freely. As for the comparison between the Russian law and FARA, Human Rights Watch calls it "disingenuous" and that Russia is "[...] using the existence of this US law inappropriately to justify the newly proposed restrictions on NGO work for domestic and international audiences": HRW
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:...That said, I do note that it is normal for nations to forbid any foreign organization from participating in or funding any part of their election cycle.
The thing is, most countries really really do not like another country preaching to them about the virtues of their system over theirs. It invites tribal ring fencing and so forth. Most people know their system has a problem here and there, but when it comes to some filthy outsider who thinks he knows better, they would rather damn the outsider and kick him out.[/quote]Agreed.
Americans are really no different, and for all the huffing and puffing over the human rights issues that cropped up over the last decade or so, fundamentally, nothing has changed. Guantanamo remains open, and even if closed, it will simply melt away and pop up in a different form.
Of this I am not certain, simply because the US has done sharp about-faces in both directions on human rights issues over the past 230 years.

Fifteen years ago I would never have predicted that the US would spend thirteen and a half of those years running what amounts to a secret police gulag on extraterritorial soil, holding captives without trial for that entire time on the basis of nothing more than allegations of their membership in a guerilla/terrorist organization.

I do not intend to predict that fifteen years from now, said secret police gulag will still be in operation.

Conversely, I do not intend to predict that this secret police gulag system won't have expanded a hundredfold.

I predict nothing, because it has become clear to me that I do not have a reliable ability to observe human rights conditions in America in the year X and extrapolate correctly to the year X+5.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:All I see here is another effort of pedantic nitpickery to discredit the thrust and content of my argument by going after the hyperbole I've always had trouble not indulging in. Do I concede that the presence of election monitors alone, absent some other combination of conditions, won't result in armed violence in the US? Yes, yes, I do, fine! Now talk about what I'm really talking about, you moron!
Just to be clear, what you are really talking about would appear to be:

1) That NGOs are often used as a means to covertly advance the interests of Nation A on Nation B's soil,
2) That the Russians tend to perceive self-identified pro-democracy NGOs as covert foreign infiltrators,
3) That as a result, said NGOs and anyone who affiliates with them is likely to be targeted by nationalist violence in Russia.
4) Furthermore, Nemtsov in particular was thus targeted not for (or not only for) association with NGOs, but for opposition of annexation of the Crimea, and opposition to Russian support for the rebels on the Donets Basin, because...
5) Said Russian nationalists see these areas as a sort of Russia irredenta, and opposing the re-expansion of Russian control into them as treason.

I am unsure how to represent the rest of your thesis on a point by point basis, so I will not presume to attempt to break it down at the moment. Is what I have said so far representative of (part of) your views on these matters?
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Mange: You dodge the point, which is that we conduct total surveillance of non-American citizens, and this is legal under our law, which removes the necessity for mandating registration of foreign agents because they have been "virtually registered" by the complete recording of their mail, internet use, and telephone use. And, oh, that tolerance of NGOs stops the moment they're Islamic. Big, big, big time.


Simon: Yes, that's an accurate summation.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Edi »

To get back to the topic at hand, apparently there is no surveillance video from the time of the murder of Nemtsov, because all of the cameras in that area had been taken offline for "maintenance".

Now there's a little factoid that is certain to inspire faith in a full and impartial investigation into the assassination and which will certainly dispel all doubts about Putin's government or someone high up in it being involved.

Was reported in our evening news on the TV, haven't checked for online sources in English yet.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Simon_Jester »

So, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, if it was ultra-nationalists and not Putin's own security men, it was well connected ultra-nationalists?
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

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The Guardian makes a compelling case.

Apparently Nemtsov wasn't so unimportant that the Kremlin did not produce lots of media hatchet jobs against him.

Bolding in the article mine:
Why we will never know who killed Boris Nemtsov

Critics of Vladimir Putin have an uncanny habit of ending up dead. Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov is the latest to be gunned down in mysterious circumstances – and the Kremlin is already blurring the details

In the 72 hours since Boris Nemtsov was murdered, the Kremlin has floated numerous explanations for his death. Vladimir Putin has called his killing a “provocation”. It’s a strange word. What Putin means is that whoever murdered Nemtsov did so to discredit the state. Since the state is the primary victim here, the state can’t be responsible, this logic runs.

Others have blamed Islamist extremists. Or Ukrainian fascists. Putin’s ally Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya’s thuggish president, has accused “western spy agencies”, an old favourite. The muck-raking website Lifenews.ru, which has close links to the FSB, Putin’s former spy agency, has pointed the finger at Nemtsov’s colourful love life. At the time of his murder, he was walking past the Kremlin with a Ukrainian model, it noted.

The only explanation not being given in Moscow for Nemtsov’s killing late on Friday evening is the blindingly obvious one: that he was murdered for his opposition activities. Specifically, for his very public criticism of Putin’s secret war in Ukraine in which at least 6,000 people have been killed over the past year, and which – according to his friends – he had been about to expose.

Nemtsov had been one of few Russian liberals brave enough to denounce Putin’s extensive undercover military support for the separatist rebels in Ukraine. He described the way Putin had annexed Crimea, using masked special forces, as “illegal”, though he recognised a majority of Crimeans wanted to join Russia. In his final interview, on Friday, he denounced Russia’s president as a “pathological liar”.

In the interview with the liberal radio station Echo of Moscow, Nemtsov seemed in good spirits. He was on waspish form. He attacked the Kremlin’s “dead-end” politics and mishandling of the economy. Nemtsov’s criticism of the Russian state was longstanding. Since being forced out of Russian parliamentary politics a decade ago, Nemtsov had founded several anti-Putin movements. With state media under the Kremlin’s thumb, though, Nemtsov was banned from TV. He was on the margins.

What changed was the war of Ukraine and the unleashing on Russia federal TV channels of a wave of nationalist hysteria and hatred. State TV regularly branded Nemtsov a fifth columnist. In the wake of his murder, NTV quietly shelved another anti-Nemtsov hatchet job, entitled Anatomy of a Protest, due to be screened on Sunday night.
By 2015, most other Russian opposition leaders were in exile (the former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the ex-chess champion Gary Kasparov) or in jail (the anti-corruption blogger Alexei Navalny).

All of this made Nemtsov especially vulnerable. Hours before his murder, moreover, Nemtsov said he had “documentary” proof that undercover Russian soldiers were fighting and dying in eastern Ukraine. It was an assertion borne out by a steady flow of coffins returning in the dead of night from the war zone in Donetsk and Luhansk. According to his friend Ilya Yashin, Nemtsov was preparing an explosive essay on the subject.

Nemtsov had written dissenting pamphlets before. One of them, Putin: A Reckoning, accused Russia’s president and his circle of massive personal corruption. Another targeted Yuri Luzhkov, Moscow’s former mayor, later toppled. But this new one went to the heart of the Kremlin’s big lie. At the weekend, police seized Nemtsov’s hard drives. There seems little prospect his last polemic will now ever be published.


Instead, the Kremlin seems to be moving towards old-fashioned cover-up.On Monday, the authorities implausibly announced that the CCTV cameras next to the spot where Nemtsov was shot dead “were not working”. The politician had had a late dinner with his girlfriend, Ukrainian Anna Duritskaya, in GUM, an upmarket shopping centre. They strolled together across the cobbles of Red Square, then walked past the Kremlin. They started crossing a bridge over the Moscow river. It was 11.30pm.

According to Duritskaya, someone emerged from a stairwell immediately behind them. The assassin shot Nemtsov six times in the back. Four of the bullets struck him, one in the heart; he died instantly. The killer then escaped in a waiting white car, driven by an accomplice. The car disappeared into the night. Duritskaya told the liberal TV channel Rain she hadn’t been able to see the person who fired the fatal shots. Investigators recovered the 9mm bullets. They didn’t find a murder weapon.

The location, though, told its own chilling story: an opponent of Putin lying dead in the street, under the walls of Russian power, and next to the country’s most famous landmark, St Basil’s cathedral. The visual scene is perfect for TV. It seems extraordinary that a former deputy prime minister could be murdered here, outside the Russian equivalent of the White House or the Houses of Parliament, with the shooter apparently able to drive off.

Officials have released one carefully curated CCTV shot taken from far away. A snowplough obscures the moment when Nemtsov is shot. Like all major opposition figures, Nemtsov was under surveillance by the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB. The FSB expends enormous effort on keeping track of its targets. On this occasion, however, an organisation known for its resources and unlimited manpower seems to have lost track of him.

In recent months, Nemtsov had voiced growing fears that he might be killed. In an interview with the FT last Monday, he said Putin was distinctly capable of murder, saying of him: “He is a totally amoral human being. Totally amoral. He is a Leviathan.” Nemtsov went on: “Putin is very dangerous. He is more dangerous than the Soviets were. In the Soviet Union, there was at least a system, and decisions were taken by the politburo. Decisions about war, decisions to kill people, were not taken by Brezhnev alone, or by Andropov either, but that’s how it works now.”

We will probably never know who killed Boris Nemtsov. The Kremlin says it’s not to blame. Despite this denial, it’s entirely possible the state ordered Nemtsov’s appalling murder; equally possible that shadowy nationalist forces decided to kill someone routinely derided as an American spy. As many of Nemtsov’s friends have pointed out, Putin deliberately fostered the atmosphere of hysteria and hatred. It is this which allowed Nemtsov to be killed. So the moral responsibility rests with him, they say.

Meanwhile, Putin’s comment that he is taking the investigation under his personal control doesn’t exactly inspire confidence. Rather, the Kremlin’s actions suggest that the chief goal now is to confuse the Russian public. The numerous “versions” of Nemtsov’s murder – from love tiff to Charlie Hebdo-inspired Islamists to “provocation” – are part of a sophisticated postmodern media strategy. How is one supposed to know which one is actually true?

In fact, the aim is to blur what is true with what is not, to the point that the truth disappears. Russia Today, the Kremlin propaganda channel, uses the same methods for western audiences. Its boss, Margarita Simonyan, argues that there is no such thing as truth, merely narrative. Russia’s narrative is just as valid as the “western narrative”, she argues. In this cynical relativist world of swirling competing versions, nothing is really true. And yet someone shot and killed Boris Nemtsov. He was alive. Now he is dead.

Such methods have been used in previous cases where enemies of the Russian state have mysteriously wound up dead. It’s a long list. In October 2006, a gunman murdered the journalist Anna Politkovskaya in the stairwell of her Moscow apartment building. In the wake of her killing, Putin dismissed her as pretty much “insignificant” inside Russia, and “merely famous in the west”. Last Friday, Dmitry Peskov, Putin’s press spokesman, echoed this. He suggested similarly that Nemtsov was a marginal figure, “scarcely more important than your average citizen”.

Three weeks after Politkovskaya’s murder, two assassins from Moscow bumped off another well-known critic of Putin’s, Alexander Litvinenko. Last month, a public inquiry into Litvinenko’s 2006 murder opened at the high court in London. Here, at least, the British police were able to obtain a mountain of evidence: CCTV footage showing Litvinenko at the Mayfair murder scene; call records from the two suspects, Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun; witnesses who were in a hotel bar when Litvinenko swallowed half a cup of radioactive green tea.

The inquiry chairman, Sir Robert Owen, will announce his findings later. He has already indicated that there is a “prima facie case” that this is a Russian state killing. The evidence backs up this interpretation. Lugovoi and Kovtun poisoned Litvinenko with polonium-210, a rare isotope typically made by a nuclear reactor. Once identified, it is easy to trace. Scotland Yard found a trail of polonium which led from Moscow to London: on plane seats, hotel rooms, on the shisha pipe (price £9) that Lugovoi smoked in a Moroccan bar.

Two former KGB agents allegedly killed Litvinenko, then, using the equivalent of a small nuclear bomb. As with Nemtsov, Putin has denied involvement. In the meantime, Lugovoi has prospered. He became a deputy in Russia’s state duma for an ultra-nationalist party. He has produced his own versions of Litvinenko’s killing, blaming it on MI6, Tony Blair and the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky. Over the weekend, he popped up on Russia’s state Rossiya TV channel to share his theories of Nemtsov’s death.


During my four years in Russia as the Guardian’s bureau chief I covered other similar killings. Stanislav Markelov, a human rights lawyer, was shot dead in 2009 close to the gold-domed Cathedral of Christ the Saviour. Murdered with him was Anastasia Barburova, a 25-year-old journalist with the opposition newspaper Novaya Gazeta. By the time I got to the scene, Markelov’s body had been removed. Vermillion splashes of blood were visible on the white snow. There were few clues. Two neo-Nazis were eventually convicted of their murders.

At the trial of a group of Chechens accused of Politkovskaya’s murder I met Natalia Estemirova, a friend of the murdered journalist, who worked for the esteemed human rights organisation Memorial. Estemirova lived in Grozny, Chechnya, and documented human rights abuses by both Islamist rebels and security forces under the command of Ramzan Kadyrov. In the summer of 2009, gunmen abducted her from her home and drove her to the neighbouring republic of Ingushetia. They marched her off the road into a wood. And shot her five times in the head and chest.

Estemirova’s killers have never been caught. Several Chechens were eventually convicted of Politkovskaya’s murder. But the person who organised the hit was never captured, and no plausible motive for her murder ever given. In the absence of dispassionate investigation, proper legal process, or even official regret, the suspicion of state complicity remains. What one can say with certainty is that troublesome critics of the Kremlin have an uncanny habit in Putin’s Russia of ending up dead.

Then there is Sergei Magnitsky. Magnitsky was a Russian lawyer who uncovered a $280m fraud by interior minister officials and a Moscow tax office. These same officials put Magnitsky in jail. They demanded he withdraw his testimony against them. He refused. So they denied him access to a doctor; he grew seriously ill. In November 2009, riot police burst into his cell and beat him to death. The Kremlin subsequently put Magnitsky on trial, even though he was already dead, after western countries sanctioned the corrupt officials involved.

On Sunday, tens of thousands of mourners filed past the spot where Nemtsov was gunned down. Some held banners that read: “Je suis Nemtsov”; others carried placards which named the “four bullets” that cut him down as Russia’s four state TV channels. In London, protesters held a vigil outside the Russian embassy, with flowers and candles. I asked one Russian friend who she thought was responsible for Nemtsov’s death. Her reply was simple and sad. “Leviathan killed him,” she said.
I am eerily reminded of the Litvinenko case where we had the same thing - and in some cases even the same posters - denying any and all Russian involvement. But now it seems clear that Litvinenko was a Putin job (too?).
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Edi wrote:To get back to the topic at hand, apparently there is no surveillance video from the time of the murder of Nemtsov, because all of the cameras in that area had been taken offline for "maintenance".

Now there's a little factoid that is certain to inspire faith in a full and impartial investigation into the assassination and which will certainly dispel all doubts about Putin's government or someone high up in it being involved.

Was reported in our evening news on the TV, haven't checked for online sources in English yet.

Finnish media are bad liars it seems.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Simon_Jester wrote:So, at the risk of belaboring the obvious, if it was ultra-nationalists and not Putin's own security men, it was well connected ultra-nationalists?
Except the CCTV camera aimed at that side and section of the bridge was active and recording, and official Putinist mouthpiece Russia Today even put the footage up on its website. Edi's sources are a bunch of bad liars. Here's the youtube video of the hit directly: so you can see for yourself. Of course I expect the usual propaganda about Russia from the usual sources, but there's no evidence and no reason for Putin to have ordered this hit, but plenty of hatred for Nemtsov from large numbers of armed paramilitaries now roving Russia freely and with popular support as a result of the Donbass war.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Thanas »

On the contrary Duchess, from the article I quoted:
On Monday, the authorities implausibly announced that the CCTV cameras next to the spot where Nemtsov was shot dead “were not working”. The politician had had a late dinner with his girlfriend, Ukrainian Anna Duritskaya, in GUM, an upmarket shopping centre. They strolled together across the cobbles of Red Square, then walked past the Kremlin. They started crossing a bridge over the Moscow river. It was 11.30pm.
[...]
Officials have released one carefully curated CCTV shot taken from far away. A snowplough obscures the moment when Nemtsov is shot.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Thanas wrote:On the contrary Duchess, from the article I quoted:
On Monday, the authorities implausibly announced that the CCTV cameras next to the spot where Nemtsov was shot dead “were not working”. The politician had had a late dinner with his girlfriend, Ukrainian Anna Duritskaya, in GUM, an upmarket shopping centre. They strolled together across the cobbles of Red Square, then walked past the Kremlin. They started crossing a bridge over the Moscow river. It was 11.30pm.
[...]
Officials have released one carefully curated CCTV shot taken from far away. A snowplough obscures the moment when Nemtsov is shot.

How many CCTV cameras do you think are aimed at the same location in Moscow at any given time? Sure the answer would be a hundred if they had the money, but they don't. The excuse becomes more plausible the fewer cameras were aimed on the relevant point. Anyway the point remains that the claim the exchange wasn't witnessed is false. You can see a man running into the getaway car. There is footage. And how much time would they have to arrange this malfunction? The bridge is not that long -- Nemtsov was out for a stroll with his mistress, did they hire her to lure him onto the bridge where the cameras had been carefully disabled? This is an absurd conspiracy theory.

And of course Litvinenko was killed by Putin, but was assassinated not for opposing Putin, but for arranging the supply of guns and arms to Chechen Islamists, being an Islamist convert himself. No different than the American assassinations of American citizens fighting for al-Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula. But Russophobia is what it is and won't be changed by this thread, so I shall withdraw from it.
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Simon_Jester »

Duchess, I for one think it worthwhile to hear some theories other than "Putin in charge in Russia so he must have done it." Russian politics is something of a closed book to many Westerners, so anyone who can weigh in with knowledge about the internal dynamics is valuable.

Without actually knowing the number of CCTV cameras that could have seen the shooting at all, it's hard to assess the likelihood of them failing. If the answer is 'one or two,' then between bad weather and the possibility of maintenance issues, it's easy for me to believe that they could go down at the same time, leaving only the single remote camera.

And frankly... if I were designing a surveillance system for a bridge, I wouldn't bother with triple-redundant coverage.

So while what we're hearing so far is consistent with the belief that the CCTV cameras close to the site of the shooting were intentionally offline, or that the footage was confiscated after the fact, they are also at least as consistent with the idea that it was blind chance that the cameras were offline.

And it does seem a bit unfair to call the footage 'edited,' which is what it sounds like the Guardian means to imply when they say the footage was "carefully curated."

For that matter, what happened is consistent with some random party taking advantage of the fact that they knew the cameras on that bridge were badly maintained, in a sort of reverse-conspiracy (instead of conspiring to create a hole in security, you learn of a pre-existing hole and exploit it).
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An interesting topic for debate is to what extent it truly matters whether Nemtsov was shot by agents of Putin, or by nationalists acting independently. What different consequences would we expect to see in each case?
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

As if virtually any criminal in the city couldn't pay the militsa to have cameras shut of! Come on, Russia is profoundly corrupt!

I am just so unbelievably apoplectically sick of hearing people condemn Russia in this 1984 newspeak style of rank hypocrisy for doing the things that the west has been relentlessly engaged in for the past 25 years. Ever since the Cold War ended, we've pressed our advantage, we've overthrown governments, we've tortured, we've killed, we've slaughtered and we've corrupted, surveilled the whole world, betrayed our own laws for the sake of power relentlessly attacked countries who dared oppose the neoliberal world-wide deregulatory agenda to which the USA and EU in their own ways are completely, utterly, and irrevocably committed. And now we must, of course, use newspeak to make the Russians look bad while we are blameless. But it's all a sickening farce. Come now? Did you really expect others to settle for anything less?
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Pelranius »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
From a book I believe "falling out of love with Putin's Russia" or something like that I read a while ago. It shows how corrupt and self-affected and boorish all of this nominal democratic heroes are, which is why everyone in Russia actually hates them except for a certain coterie of upper-middle-class city liberals in Petersburg and Moskva. And of course he was shot dead while romantically walking over a bridge with his 23-year old Ukrainian model girlfriend by some professional killers, probably rightwing paramilitaries who've been fighting in the Caucasus, driving a Ford Mondeo of all things. A thoroughly absurdist end to an absurd man (what kind of nutcase, having real information condemning an authoritarian government, strolls down the street next to its headquarters with his squeeze instead of being holed up in a safehouse? -- oh right, he had found nothing new. Everyone knows that Russia is supporting the Donbass, and he could add nothing to that knowledge except a blowhard press conference!).
Yup, Duchess, that comes from Ben Judah's book Fragile Empire: How Russians Fell In and Out of Love with Putin.

Wonder if Kadyrov or that fat Cossack wannabe on the Don had a hand in the Nemstov assassination. Both have a hand or two in the whole Donbass mess, and they're probably cocky enough to think that they won't suffer much (if any) blowback from killing Nemtsov (assuming that either one of them left enough evidence).
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Re: Russian Opposition Leader Boris Nemtsov Shot Dead

Post by Grumman »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:As if virtually any criminal in the city couldn't pay the militsa to have cameras shut of! Come on, Russia is profoundly corrupt!
Corrupt does not mean suicidal. Remember that these are not just any security cameras: they are security cameras just outside Vladimir Putin's official residence. Unless you want to be executed for treason, making yourself an accomplice in what one should assume might be an attack on the President of Russia is a bloody stupid idea.
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