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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

Stas Bush wrote:Obviously U all like war.
I like logic, something you are adamantly against. I also like dictators being removed so people have choices.
Fine than. I've seen Sep. 11. Agression. Death. Pain. You have seen that. You don't like when someone KICKS in your HOME. Neither do the Iraquis. But U don't care for them.
Funny. Entire cities are partying when the RM arrives.
And it's pure bullshit about needing to "wipe" Saddam. There's diplomacy. But this word has lost it's meaning.
Diplomacy was attempted. Ultimatums were used. Saddam defied.
Saddam won't attack ME. He CAN'T. He was kicked out of action long ago. But US CAN. And they show agression. We have some oil, by the way. Gee thanks. I don't need such "freedom".
Slippery slope fallacy again.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

This out-dated missiles fired against Kuweit are no threat to anyone. You fail to admit it. You have seen footages of Iraq army? DEAD tanks in the sand. Rusty. Broken.
Iraq would NEVER fire the missiles, because then everyone would kick their ass. But then the US showed agression first. Iraq had no choice.
9 missiles. 9. US fired 150. Remember Yugoslavia. Dozens dead - "military mistake".
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Post by Joe »

Stas Bush wrote:Obviously U all like war.
Go to hell, troll.
Fine than. I've seen Sep. 11. Agression. Death. Pain. You have seen that. You don't like when someone KICKS in your HOME. Neither do the Iraquis. But U don't care for them.
Which is why the U.S./U.K. coalition forces are taking absolute care to minimize civilian casualties.
And it's pure bullshit about needing to "wipe" Saddam. There's diplomacy. But this word has lost it's meaning.
We've tried diplomacy. Again. And again. And again.
Saddam won't attack ME. He CAN'T. He was kicked out of action long ago. But US CAN. And they show agression. We have some oil, by the way. Gee thanks. I don't need such "freedom".
He can hurt us, and he's a threat to his people. There is no reason why you should support his continued existence. He's an ASSHOLE.

You've shown aggression as well, I might add. Chechnya.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

right then, I'll just sit back and watch. looks like this is decreasingly like a debate and more like a flame war. I prefer the first and avoid the second.

from what Ive seen, saddam isnt a direct threat to the u.s.
he doesnt appear t ohave an obvious weapon program.

but on the sheer basis of human rights, I think we should go in. yes, it's partially bout oil. yes, its also cuz it will make a good base, will stabalize the region, and the prez has a grudge. its all of those reasons. I see no reason to allow a repressive regime to survive. the thought is repugnant to me; allowing dictatorship to continue is absurd. the chance of weakening the other fundy regimes in the middle east, most of whom violently hate u.s. policies, is also welcome.
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Post by Warspite »

Stas Bush wrote:This out-dated missiles fired against Kuweit are no threat to anyone. You fail to admit it. You have seen footages of Iraq army? DEAD tanks in the sand. Rusty. Broken.
Iraq would NEVER fire the missiles, because then everyone would kick their ass. But then the US showed agression first. Iraq had no choice.
9 missiles. 9. US fired 150. Remember Yugoslavia. Dozens dead - "military mistake".
Yadda, yadda, yadda... Back up those claims, bitch!
The destroyed tanks in the desert are remains of '91. Oh, yes and when a hunk of metal comes crashing down from the sky, it's always a fucking threat! :roll:
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Post by K. A. Pital »

About ultimatums - I wonder, why they did not wait the UN check result? Why? Was it so really important to spit on everyone and begin war?

About dictators being removed - fine. In a legitimate way.
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Post by SirNitram »

Stas Bush wrote:This out-dated missiles fired against Kuweit are no threat to anyone. You fail to admit it. You have seen footages of Iraq army? DEAD tanks in the sand. Rusty. Broken.
Missiles that leave 8 meter craters are harmless now? Stand still while we test one on you to be sure.

Dead tanks are from conflict, probably from those tanks firing at Abrams formations.
Iraq would NEVER fire the missiles, because then everyone would kick their ass. But then the US showed agression first. Iraq had no choice.
9 missiles. 9. US fired 150. Remember Yugoslavia. Dozens dead - "military mistake".
Iraq did fire missiles across a national borders. That the US fired more means very little, unless you have some magic proof Saddam wouldn't fire more if he had them.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Ok, about halfway through this thread, but I had to comment on Stas bullshit about Iraq having no weapons, you know those illegal weaons they don't have? 2 of the first 4 missiles fired on Kuwait were illegal, one was a Al-Sumud and the other was a SCUD.
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Post by SirNitram »

Stas Bush wrote:About ultimatums - I wonder, why they did not wait the UN check result? Why? Was it so really important to spit on everyone and begin war?
The UN members in the Security Council would not support it, ever. They made that clear. So the US went alone. Nothing is inherently wrong with this, as what they were asking for was support.. Not permission.
About dictators being removed - fine. In a legitimate way.
What legitimate way is that? The only way to remove a dictator for sure is to put a bullet in his head and confirm the kill.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

KILL Saddam then. Why should other people, including your own, suffer? :shock:
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Post by Warspite »

SirNitram wrote:What legitimate way is that? The only way to remove a dictator for sure is to put a bullet in his head and confirm the kill.
There is the International Court in the Hague (Milosevic), and exile (Pinochet). Killing a dictator is not always an option, sometimes, courts or exile is a better political answer to this problem.
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Post by Joe »

Stas Bush wrote:KILL Saddam then. Why should other people, including your own, suffer? :shock:
Concession accepted.

To answer your question; can't just take out Saddam. Need to take out his sons as well, as well as the entire Ba'athist government.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

Stas Bush wrote:KILL Saddam then. Why should other people, including your own, suffer? :shock:
do tell the u.s. marines his adress.

no? I guess we'll have to use the army.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I wonder why Saddam didn't fire all the missiles when the US were gathering at the borded. He understood clearly that he'll be alone if he did.
One thing, I've been in a dictatorship. It's not so bad as you believe. And if
USA attacked the USSR because "we needed democracy"?
Still no good point why the other's opinion should be ignored. I can imagine that there may have been something good about this war. But hardly.
Time will tell. Let's see what will they do after the occupation.
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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Stas Bush wrote:KILL Saddam then. Why should other people, including your own, suffer? :shock:
Cause his two sons next in line are worse, and I wouldn't be surprised if we just cut Saddams throut we would have a bloody conflict for control of the country. It does no good to just take out a leader, we have to complete take out the govt. before Iraq can start healing itself.
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Post by Stravo »

TWELVE YEARS of diplomacy not enough for you Stas???

He's firing wepoans he's NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE even now. He said IN WRITING he did not have these weopans yet the inepctors kept finding them. He did not allow overflights of his country because he did not want them to see where he was hiding the stuff AND when he allowed overflights he needed several hours notice to know WHERE they were going to fly.

The inspectors job was not supposed to be hunt down and track these weapons but to verify and confirm. Sadaam spent TWELVE YEARS hiding his weapons but thats not enough is it? He could pass on these weapons to terrorists. but that's not enough?
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Post by Coyote »

Hameru wrote:
Coyote wrote:How funny. The anti-war types will accept ANYTHING the Iraqis say as truth and give them the full benefit of the doubt. But anything said by the US administration is to be met with nothing but skepticism and mockery.
The US is supposedly above lies and bullshit, yet they've done nothing but lie and bullshit us about what's really going on.

The pro war forces...
And then you get all offended and wonder why we call protesters "anti-American"!
Which is all you can do once the evidence is stacked against you.
Really? While I never claimed the US position was perfect, I still see a man who has used WMDs against civilians, attacked numerous other countries, and engaged in ethnic cleansing against unwanted minorities. That the US has lied or presented some facts so badly that they became tainted does not remove these historical facts.

Let's bear in mind that the inspectors were not allowed to inspect Republican Guard bases or formations. Where do you think WMDs will be stored? In Saddam's garage? But you're satisfied when Saddam says "Oh, there's nothing in there, just some old knick-knacks"?

Hans Blix himself never did find 1,000 pounds of anthrax that was supposedly"destroyed" yet no proof was offered. The lefties just smile and nod their heads-- if Saddam says he destroyed it, he must be telling the truth. You will accept Saddam's word, giving a nod of acceptance to a man who's hands are covered in the blood of chemical'd dead, just to make a political statement against Bush. How incredibly dark.

And as I said before-- we helped make Saddam powerful. We have an obligation to clean up after him. We are belatedly picking up some of our pieces rather than sweeping them under the carpet (ie Pinochet, Marcos, Mobuto Sese Seko).

On the other hand, the Left is still so pissed off about dimpled chads that they're willing to ignore the lives lost to this fanatic just to stick it to Bush. That is an amazing display of cynicism.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

It's all fine about people you and I will never know, dying. I don't care much. I'm not in Iraq. But one thing makes me care.
If you'll someday do likewise to MY country as you did to Iraq, wait NO mercy.
That's all I can say.
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Post by Coyote »

Stas Bush wrote:One thing, I've been in a dictatorship. It's not so bad as you believe...
I hereby declare this man to be the Brick Wall against which one should not argue with.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


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Post by SirNitram »

Stas Bush wrote:I wonder why Saddam didn't fire all the missiles when the US were gathering at the borded. He understood clearly that he'll be alone if he did.
Or he understands more about war than you, and is saving some for a strike against the US forces later.
One thing, I've been in a dictatorship. It's not so bad as you believe. And if
USA attacked the USSR because "we needed democracy"?
You have democracy. Putin's never gassed an entire city of his own.
Still no good point why the other's opinion should be ignored. I can imagine that there may have been something good about this war. But hardly.
Your opinion is ignored because you are stupid.
Time will tell. Let's see what will they do after the occupation.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

So you think Germany, Russia and France are wrong because they are against this war? I don't believe Saddam. I don't think our government does. But I belive our government. Not Saddam not you - you and Saddy are IN the war.
You're patriotic and so am I. My country does not like that war. And I'm one with my country. You're one with your's.
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Post by theski »

Any votes to move this to HoS We are making absolutely no headway..
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Post by Joe »

Stas Bush wrote:So you think Germany, Russia and France are wrong because they are against this war? I don't believe Saddam. I don't think our government does. But I belive our government. Not Saddam not you - you and Saddy are IN the war.
You're patriotic and so am I. My country does not like that war. And I'm one with my country. You're one with your's.
As the left so frequently reminds us, patriotism is not mindlessly obeying what your country says or does. I don't support this war blindly, I support it because I think that it is the correct, utilitarian course of action.
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Post by Hamel »

Really? While I never claimed the US position was perfect, I still see a man who has used WMDs against civilians, attacked numerous other countries, and engaged in ethnic cleansing against unwanted minorities. That the US has lied or presented some facts so badly that they became tainted does not remove these historical facts.
And as long as we remember Saddam's atrocities, let us not ever forget who helped him out. Unforturnately, pro-war types desperately try to shift focus away from what we did to help our "son of a bitch". Mostly only a quick aknowledgement of what we did, yet no indication that we'll stop doing this shit in the future.
Let's bear in mind that the inspectors were not allowed to inspect Republican Guard bases or formations. Where do you think WMDs will be stored? In Saddam's garage? But you're satisfied when Saddam says "Oh, there's nothing in there, just some old knick-knacks"?
I'm satisfied with what the inspectors are doing. Have they been able to inspect every inch of Iraq? No. However, the Iraqis certainly didn't forget about how we attempted to spy there in 1998.
Hans Blix himself never did find 1,000 pounds of anthrax that was supposedly"destroyed" yet no proof was offered. The lefties just smile and nod their heads-- if Saddam says he destroyed it, he must be telling the truth.
And you pro-war types nod your heads at an administration full of liars. The evidence so far is favoring the anti-war position.
You will accept Saddam's word, giving a nod of acceptance to a man who's hands are covered in the blood of chemical'd dead, just to make a political statement against Bush. How incredibly dark.
Well, right back at ya. Just nod your heads for the nutcases in office.
And as I said before-- we helped make Saddam powerful. We have an obligation to clean up after him. We are belatedly picking up some of our pieces rather than sweeping them under the carpet (ie Pinochet, Marcos, Mobuto Sese Seko).
And we're set on making more messes for the later generations to clean up. We've expressed interest in taking on other countries, in a move which cannot be called anything other than imperialistic.
On the other hand, the Left is still so pissed off about dimpled chads that they're willing to ignore the lives lost to this fanatic just to stick it to Bush. That is an amazing display of cynicism.
Amazing how the pro-war types never gave a shit about anyone other than themselves, yet when they have a breakthrough oppurtunity to flex their patriotic muscles they play the justice and compassion cards.
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Post by Kelly Antilles »

Stas Bush wrote:So you think Germany, Russia and France are wrong because they are against this war? I don't believe Saddam. I don't think our government does. But I belive our government. Not Saddam not you - you and Saddy are IN the war.
You're patriotic and so am I. My country does not like that war. And I'm one with my country. You're one with your's.
Someone tell me... did anyone say Germany, Russia and France were wrong for not supporting the war? I don't remember seeing that. Funny how you can berate us for believeing OUR government. Isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?
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