A enraging expose from Jon Oliver on voting rights.

[The Romulan Republic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CesHr99ezWE

The story of how US territories don't get full voting rights. This is something everyone should be aware of. I regret to say that I wasn't aware of it, or at least not fully aware of it, until I saw this video. Sadly, I imagine this is true for a lot of people. Hence my posting this.

And the Obama Administration's conduct on this issue as described in the video is disgraceful. Siding with an old racist Supreme Court decision from an advocate of segregation to justify maintaining the status quo? The first black President, of all people, should know better.

Edit: Personally, I think all these territories should become states.

[Dominus Atheos]

I'm not sure about all of them, but Porto Rico at least has the option to become a state if the local government asks, or the option to leave entirety and become an independent country.

[Patroklos]

There is a certain financial incentive for them not to do so...

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC Puerto Rico has had a couple of popular votes on the matter of becoming a state, and both times it decided against. I could be off base on that though.

The financial incentive is minimal-- they would be trading paying extra taxes for a higher status as a citizen of the United States, with all the benefits (and burdens) that come along with that. They would have the right to representation in Congress along with other material benefits.

An added element is that if the territories became states, suddenly diplomacy could get a little more interesting since we are now talking about national waters around Guam, the Marinas, and so forth, as much as Hawaii and California. I don't know how much of an issue that would be, but our borders would be suddenly quite stretched.

There's a lot of arguments either way but it does look like the *current* status of the US territories is that they're holding the short end.

[Block]

There's more to it than what Oliver presented, as usual. They don't pay Federal taxes, don't have to meet any Federal standards for employment like minimum wage, etc. American Samoa is run by its own government, as are most other territories, and while they aren't born citizens, if they do decide to serve in the military, citizenship gets fast tracked. A lot of them don't actually want to be states either. Mind you the reasoning behind it as far as court rulings are obnoxiously racist and out of date, and definitely need to be revisited, but it's not as bad as Oliver's "reporting" makes it. This is actually the problem I have with Oliver. His show is a much more serious tone with its segments than the Daily Show, so it needs a higher journalistic standard.

[The Romulan Republic]

That they don't pay Federal taxes or have to follow fucking minimum wage laws is not a good thing. The former is at best a pay off in exchange for their equality as citizens and the latter is just third world shit. And their's really no way to white wash being the only inhabitants of America who aren't born citizens. Nor do I like the idea that your odds of being a citizen go up if you're in the military, as it implies that Americans who do not serve in the military are second class... I'd say citizens, but that's not really applicable is it? And it could even be seen as coercing people to join the military.

Edit: I'm willing to accept that Oliver might not be 100% right. He is, after all, a comedian at least as much as he is a journalist. But there is a very real problem here, I think.

Second Edit: My personal sentiment is basically that their should be one set of laws, one set of rights, one set of obligations, and one level of citizenship that applies equally to all Americans.

[Karmic Knight]

The larger issue on the status of each territory within the context of statehood aside. The citizenship of the persons in those territories is more the issue that the video addresses. And from that perspective, it's all terrible and there is no way it is good for them. Part of the problem is, while Puerto Rico is sized and able to be inducted as a state, were it not for disagreements by Puerto Ricans on whether they have a better deal now or as a state, the Pacific Islands are smaller and further away such that the "average" American is unaware, either of them or their status in the country.

Basically, the problems are more on the citizens nationals, as Oliver's piece showed/was about, and less on the government of these locations, and more on the average people of these Islands who are the ones with any grievance.

[Patroklos]

The financial incentive is minimal-- they would be trading paying extra taxes for a higher status as a citizen of the United States, with all the benefits (and burdens) that come along with that. They would have the right to representation in Congress along with other material benefits.

Cool story, but Puerto Ricans on average disagree with you. Their opinion of the relative value of those various things is as valid as yours, and also happen to be relevant. If they don't want to join they don't want to join, we (US citizens via our government) are the ones who set the rules up that way.

[The Romulan Republic]

I seem to recall that the last time the issue was put to a vote, no option won a majority but statehood came in first. I'll have to see if I can find a source for that.

[Elheru Aran]

The financial incentive is minimal-- they would be trading paying extra taxes for a higher status as a citizen of the United States, with all the benefits (and burdens) that come along with that. They would have the right to representation in Congress along with other material benefits.

Cool story, but Puerto Ricans on average disagree with you. Their opinion of the relative value of those various things is as valid as yours, and also happen to be relevant. If they don't want to join they don't want to join, we (US citizens via our government) are the ones who set the rules up that way.

Kindly point out where I said they *should* join.

A large issue with letting the territories have independence is that, apart from PR, most of them are small and impoverished. Certainly there's something of a tourist trade (no passport needed for US citizens? Sweet), but if the US let them go, they'd flop fast, and they know it. So while it's not a great situation for them, it's better than they would have otherwise. It would be far better if they were made citizens... but as such they would be even more of a drain on US resources than they are now, so it doesn't really benefit the States to bring them on board (that and the whole they're a really long way away so not really a big part of the American consciousness).

No way about it; it's not a good situation for anybody really, and the US got itself into that situation, so IMO something will need to be done about it fairly soon. Especially if the sea level starts coming on up pretty bad...

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, adding four states (presuming it was done with the permission of the local populace) could be a real boon to US prestige (and the flag-makers).

Or, if the littler islands are too small to warrant statehood, what about making Puerto Rico a state and merging the various Pacific islands into a single very dispersed state?

[The Romulan Republic]

The follow up I mentioned earlier on the topic of support for statehood in Puerto Rico: www.cnn.com/2012/11/07/politics/election-puerto-rico/

[Elheru Aran]

I think that latter notion (uniting the Pacific island territories) may have actually been proposed at one point. The downside of it is the scale of the geographic dispersal (thousands of miles), which means that culturally the various islands self-identify as fairly different individual territories; they don't really share an identity apart from the common allegiance to the US. That could certainly be overcome with enough campaigning in statehood's favour, though...

And are you meaning to make them one state along with Hawaii, or a separate state? (Just curious)

[The Romulan Republic]

I was thinking a new state. But I suppose they could be added to Hawaii.

Still, you're right about how dispersed they are, and I imagine you're right about their being major cultural differences too. Maybe three very little states would be better.

Edit: Guam in particular deserves statehood because, given its location and huge military presence, its going to be basically on the frontline if things ever really go to hell with North Korea.

[Patroklos]

I think that latter notion (uniting the Pacific island territories) may have actually been proposed at one point. The downside of it is the scale of the geographic dispersal (thousands of miles), which means that culturally the various islands self-identify as fairly different individual territories; they don't really share an identity apart from the common allegiance to the US. That could certainly be overcome with enough campaigning in statehood's favour, though...

And are you meaning to make them one state along with Hawaii, or a separate state? (Just curious)

Even if they were side by side I doubt you could get them to agree to it due to population disparity. Puerto Rico has a population of 3.5 million, Guam as an example has a population of 165K. American Samoa 56K. Northern Mariana Islands 77K. Even the Virgin Islands which are right next to Puerto Rico so at least make sense geographically to include in a combined state is just 105K strong in potential voters. Basically these populations would be further disenfranchised as they are a rounding error in what are essentially Puerto Rican only elections unless some complicated power sharing agreement were included. Rhode Island would never have agreed to such a thing in the 1700s, I doubt the Virgin Islands would now.

Edit: Guam in particular deserves statehood because, given its location and huge military presence, its going to be basically on the frontline if things ever really go to hell with North Korea.

Why does that matter regarding statehood? And no, North Korea is irrelevant. China is a better boogie man for that line of (weak) reasoning.

[Xisiqomelir]

Obama should get in on this.

Unlike his other lame duck stuff, this would help his party for a WHILE, mayne.

[Block]

I think that latter notion (uniting the Pacific island territories) may have actually been proposed at one point. The downside of it is the scale of the geographic dispersal (thousands of miles), which means that culturally the various islands self-identify as fairly different individual territories; they don't really share an identity apart from the common allegiance to the US. That could certainly be overcome with enough campaigning in statehood's favour, though...

And are you meaning to make them one state along with Hawaii, or a separate state? (Just curious)

Even if they were side by side I doubt you could get them to agree to it due to population disparity. Puerto Rico has a population of 3.5 million, Guam as an example has a population of 165K. American Samoa 56K. Northern Mariana Islands 77K. Even the Virgin Islands which are right next to Puerto Rico so at least make sense geographically to include in a combined state is just 105K strong in potential voters. Basically these populations would be further disenfranchised as they are a rounding error in what are essentially Puerto Rican only elections unless some complicated power sharing agreement were included. Rhode Island would never have agreed to such a thing in the 1700s, I doubt the Virgin Islands would now.

Edit: Guam in particular deserves statehood because, given its location and huge military presence, its going to be basically on the frontline if things ever really go to hell with North Korea.

Why does that matter regarding statehood? And no, North Korea is irrelevant. China is a better boogie man for that line of (weak) reasoning.

I think he's pointing at adding 2 states. PR and then the Pacific islands as a separate state.

[The Romulan Republic]

To clarify the facts on the level of support for statehood in Puerto Rico, their was a vote in 2012 where 54% voted for Puerto Rico to stop being a US commonwealth and 61% voted for Puerto Rico to be a state in response to a different question. This is in the CNN article I linked to earlier. I'd edit it in to an earlier post, but its too late for that.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think that latter notion (uniting the Pacific island territories) may have actually been proposed at one point. The downside of it is the scale of the geographic dispersal (thousands of miles), which means that culturally the various islands self-identify as fairly different individual territories; they don't really share an identity apart from the common allegiance to the US. That could certainly be overcome with enough campaigning in statehood's favour, though...

And are you meaning to make them one state along with Hawaii, or a separate state? (Just curious)

Even if they were side by side I doubt you could get them to agree to it due to population disparity. Puerto Rico has a population of 3.5 million, Guam as an example has a population of 165K. American Samoa 56K. Northern Mariana Islands 77K. Even the Virgin Islands which are right next to Puerto Rico so at least make sense geographically to include in a combined state is just 105K strong in potential voters. Basically these populations would be further disenfranchised as they are a rounding error in what are essentially Puerto Rican only elections unless some complicated power sharing agreement were included. Rhode Island would never have agreed to such a thing in the 1700s, I doubt the Virgin Islands would now.

Edit: Guam in particular deserves statehood because, given its location and huge military presence, its going to be basically on the frontline if things ever really go to hell with North Korea.

Why does that matter regarding statehood? And no, North Korea is irrelevant. China is a better boogie man for that line of (weak) reasoning.

It matters because while no one should have fewer rights, its is especially offensive to see those who might have to sacrifice most in a war being mistreated by their government.

[Patroklos]

This is true for pretty much any country with a frontier, which at least historically was under populated and underdeveloped in general. That's obviously not how things work now with development border to border in places like Europe (but it wasn't always that way) but still wars are going to happen on your borders, its a fact of life. Its like saying Hawaii and Alaska should have been made instant states at the start of WWII, that obviously didn't happen.

[The Romulan Republic]

If the whole world was at peace for all eternity, I would still think the whole country should be given equality. The threat of war just makes it a little bit more galling that equality is denied.

[The Romulan Republic]

Also, I have to make a correction to something I said earlier. I believe it is not four new states we potentially need, but five. Puerto Rico, Guam, American Samoa, The US Virgin Islands, and The Northern Marianas (all mentioned in Oliver's video).

[Civil War Man]

It's also a misnomer to say that Puerto Ricans don't pay Federal taxes. Puerto Ricans pay into Federal payroll taxes, Social Security, and Medicare, among other things. The only exception is that they potentially don't have to file a Federal personal income tax return if they have no source of income outside Puerto Rico and they are not a government employee, though they may still have to anyway if they are self-employed.

If you are a United States citizen or resident alien and are a bona fide resident of Puerto Rico during the entire tax year, you generally are not required to file a U.S. federal income tax return if your only income is from sources within Puerto Rico. However, if you also have income from sources outside of Puerto Rico, including from U.S. sources, you are required to file a U.S. federal income tax return if such amount is above the U.S. filing threshold. Nevertheless, a bona fide resident of Puerto Rico with a U.S. filing obligation, generally will not report Puerto Rican source income on a U.S. income tax return. A tax year for calendar year filers is January 1 to December 31.

If you are a bona fide resident of Puerto Rico and can exclude your Puerto Rican source income on your U.S. income tax return, you must determine your return filing requirement based on the filing thresholds shown in the individual tax return instructions. For more information about how to determine the amount of income that requires filing a U.S. income tax return, refer to Publication 570 and Publication 1321 (PDF).

However, if you are a resident of Puerto Rico and a U.S. government employee, including members of the U.S. Armed Forces, you must file an income tax return reporting all income received for performing services for the U.S. government. In addition, special rules under the Military Spouses Residency Relief Act (MSRRA) apply to civilian spouses of active duty members of the U.S. Armed Forces who work in Puerto Rico but retain their tax residency status in one of the 50 states or the District of Columbia and have the same tax residency as their spouses before the move. If these spouses earn compensation while working in Puerto Rico, e.g., income from wages, salaries, tips, or self-employment, they will only file a U.S. income tax return reporting such compensation. For more information on how MSRRA applies to civilian spouses, refer to Publication 570 and Notice 2012-41 available on IRS.gov.

U.S. citizens and resident aliens who are not bona fide residents of Puerto Rico during the entire tax year, are required to report all income from worldwide sources on their U.S. income tax return. However, a U.S. citizen who changes residence from Puerto Rico to the United States, and who was a bona fide resident of Puerto Rico for a period of at least two years before changing residency, can exclude any Puerto Rican source income from his or her U.S. income tax return attributable to the time he or she was still residing in Puerto Rico for part of the year.

If a bona fide resident of Puerto Rico does not have a U.S. income tax filing requirement, he or she may nevertheless have an obligation to file a return with the United States reporting self-employment income derived from a trade or business in Puerto Rico and/or elsewhere. Such individuals must file Form 1040-SS (PDF) or Form 1040-PR (PDF) with the United States to report self-employment income and if necessary, pay self-employment tax. For more information on self-employment reporting requirements, see the Form 1040-SS Instructions (PDF) and Form 1040-PR Instructions (PDF).

Also, a link to a spreadsheet on the IRS website that says Puerto Rico paid about $3.7 billion in taxes to the Federal government in 2009.

[TheFeniX]

A large issue with letting the territories have independence is that, apart from PR, most of them are small and impoverished. Certainly there's something of a tourist trade (no passport needed for US citizens? Sweet), but if the US let them go, they'd flop fast, and they know it.

I know it's an extremely small point on this, but I'd like to point out that as someone who has had to travel to St. Croix on business a few times: yea, you don't need a passport, but yes, you should definitely bring one if you don't want to deal with a ton of hassle. It's all dependent on who you run into on what day, but you can end up almost missing your flight sometimes.

Also, as great as tourism is, when it washes up: those people get kind of angry. There are more than a few bumper stickers that read "Betrayed by tourism" which was a response to the slow recovery of the trade (and many other things) after Hurricane Hugo. Might have something to do with not having 2 senators and some House representatives constantly asking why their state is still in ruins.

[Gandalf]

The Pacific Islands won't be made states for the same reason that DC won't. They're not white enough, and giving them senate representation would scare the Anglo-Saxon gerontocracy.