Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Purple »

Stas Bush wrote:Saudi Arabia is the pet of the Western world. Look at the condolences after king Abdullah kicked the bucket. Do I need to remind you of their laws?
So? Does not mean I support that. As you implied.
How do you propose to end what the House of Saud is doing? Oh right. You propose to do nothing. See, the poor arabs in other countries, their lives aren't worth one tenth of a Saudi life. Guess what? That is also the way many Saudis think.
Or, and this might come as a shock and will probably be completely beyond comprehension to your black-white good-bad all-nothing absolutist mind we could do something that falls in between "nothing" and "destroy the nation of Saudi Arabia causing untold suffering to its people for generations to come".
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Titan Uranus »

Purple wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Saudi Arabia is the pet of the Western world. Look at the condolences after king Abdullah kicked the bucket. Do I need to remind you of their laws?
So? Does not mean I support that. As you implied.
How do you propose to end what the House of Saud is doing? Oh right. You propose to do nothing. See, the poor arabs in other countries, their lives aren't worth one tenth of a Saudi life. Guess what? That is also the way many Saudis think.
Or, and this might come as a shock and will probably be completely beyond comprehension to your black-white good-bad all-nothing absolutist mind we could do something that falls in between "nothing" and "destroy the nation of Saudi Arabia causing untold suffering to its people for generations to come".
What solution would you prefer then, Purple?
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by cosmicalstorm »

Eleas wrote:I love how now suddenly Saudi Arabia + closest friends has become synonymous with "the Arab World." Also, tell me again why Saudi Arabia should feel grateful that Sweden admits immigrants?
Saudi-Arabia exports immigrants to Sweden via funding war and extremism in other countries.
The other countries in OIC, like Afghanistan, Palestine, Syria, Iran and Iraq should certainly be grateful.
Hundreds of thousands have been able to move from these countries to Sweden.

Sweden also recognized Palestina some time ago.
But the Palestinians certainly do not feel very grateful about that, or perhaps it is simply too provocative for them to have a woman minister call their sacred law medieval.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Eleas »

cosmicalstorm wrote:
Eleas wrote:I love how now suddenly Saudi Arabia + closest friends has become synonymous with "the Arab World." Also, tell me again why Saudi Arabia should feel grateful that Sweden admits immigrants?
Saudi-Arabia exports immigrants to Sweden via funding war and extremism in other countries.
Yes, and for the majority of these immigrants, Saudi Arabia either does not care or actively dislikes them.
cosmicalstorm wrote:The other countries in OIC, like Afghanistan, Palestine, Syria, Iran and Iraq should certainly be grateful.
Hundreds of thousands have been able to move from these countries to Sweden.
Again, why should the countries -- i.e. the governments -- feel grateful for that?
cosmicalstorm wrote:Sweden also recognized Palestina some time ago.
But the Palestinians certainly do not feel very grateful about that, or perhaps it is simply too provocative for them to have a woman minister call their sacred law medieval.
[citation needed]

The "arab world" is not monolithic, and the actions of Saudi Arabia certainly don't express the Will of the Eeebul Moozlems, no matter what you try to imply in this thread. They simply have a lot of influence due to Western money and Western military support, all of which you seem keen on glossing over.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by K. A. Pital »

Purple wrote:Or, and this might come as a shock and will probably be completely beyond comprehension to your black-white good-bad all-nothing absolutist mind we could do something that falls in between "nothing" and "destroy the nation of Saudi Arabia causing untold suffering to its people for generations to come".
So, ending the rule of the House of Saud means 'untold suffering for generations to come'? Know what? Fuck you.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by cosmicalstorm »

The OIC is a monolithic entity of which those countries are a part of. They should feel grateful because those immigrants are now being taken care of by Swedens tax-payers, they no longer pose a problem to their home countries. In fact, the money they send back to their home countries is a big source of revenue for these countries as has been noted by the UN.
OIC expresses its reservations on the remarks made by Sweden’s foreign minister against Saudi Arabia

Date: 14/03/2015 - View in: Arabic | French

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The Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) expressed its reservations on the remarks made, in regard to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, by the Foreign Minister of Sweden, Margot Wallström, at the Swedish Parliament last week. In her remarks, Ms. Wallström degraded Saudi Arabia and its social norms, judicial system and political institutions.

The OIC stressed that the world community, with its multiple cultures, diverse social norms, rich and varied ethical standards and different institutional structures, can not, and should not, be based on a single and centric perspective that seeks to remake the world in its own image; and conform all according to its convictions, references, historical background and philosophical, social and political roots.

The OIC Secretary General, Iyad Ameen Madani, stressed that relations between states should be maintained on the basis of respect, parity and appreciation; and that Islam, which Saudi Arabia - a founding member of the OIC - is governed by, is centered on the values of justice, compassion, equality, tolerance and the notion of human vicegerency.

Madani expressed his hope that Sweden will always be true to its history, policies and attitude that do not claim moral authority to pass one-sided judgments and moral categorizations of others.
Bahrain rejects Sweden's anti-Saudi Arabia remarks

Organisation of Islamic Cooperation opposes "authority claim to pass moral categorisations of others"
Published: 09:29 March 17, 2015
By Habib Toumi, Bureau Chief
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Manama: Bahrain has rejected the statement by Sweden’s foreign minister against Saudi Arabia as “interference” in the domestic affairs of a Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC).

Margot Wallström provoked a political storm last week when she made remarks about Saudi Arabia’s social norms and judicial system that Riyadh condemned as “a blatant interference in its domestic affairs.”

The Saudi stance was reiterated by Bahrain late on Monday.

The statements by the Swedish foreign minister “are considered a blatant interference and a rejected infringement against the sovereignty of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and its judicial system, considering that any interference in the internal affairs of a Gulf Cooperation Council country is considered to be an interference in all GCC countries," the ministry said.

The GCC, established in 1981, comprises Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs stresses the importance of mutual recognition of state systems and institutions and the respect of cultural diversity among communities, and affirms that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which derives its rules from the Islamic Sharia, has laid the foundation that provides people with all rights and freedoms based on the values of justice, mercy and equality. The ministry calls for commitment to international conventions and diplomatic norms that strictly prohibit interference in internal affairs and do not permit it under any form," the ministry said.

Last week, GCC foreign ministers openly sided with Saudi Arabia in its standoff with Sweden and condemned the “false accusations” by the Nordic state foreign minister.

A statement issued at the end of the 134th meeting of the GCC ministers in the Saudi capital Riyadh said that the Swedish false accusations were an unacceptable interference in the domestic affairs of Saudi Arabia that is inconsistent with all international conventions and norms.

On Sunday, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) “expressed its reservations on the remarks made in regard to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, by the Foreign Minister of Sweden.”

“The OIC stresses that the world community, with its multiple cultures, diverse social norms, rich and varied ethical standards and different institutional structures, cannot, and should not, be based on a single and centric perspective that seeks to remake the world in its own image and conform all according to its convictions, references, historical background and philosophical, social and political roots,” the OIC said.

OIC Secretary General, Iyad Ameen Madani said he hoped “Sweden will always be true to its history, policies and attitude that do not claim moral authority to pass one-sided judgments and moral categorizations of others.”

Last week, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador in Stockholm in the middle of a spat triggered Wallström’s remarks and that led to the Swedish decision to end its military cooperation with Riyadh.

“The remarks are inconsistent with international conventions and diplomatic norms and do not conform to the friendly relations between the countries. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia therefore recalls its ambassador to the Kingdom of Sweden,” a Ministry of Foreign Affairs official told the Saudi Press Agency.

Osama Naqli, the Saudi foreign ministry spokesperson, insisted on his Twitter account that his country did not interfere in Sweden’s internal affairs, saying that Riyadh was keen on its values and principles based on the Islamic Sharia.

“Sweden interfered in the domestic affairs of Saudi Arabia and we responded,” he said. “The Islamic Sharia does not need a certificate of good behaviour from Sweden or from anybody else,” he said.

Sweden has been selling arms to Saudi Arabia for decades, but the deal on military cooperation, signed in 2005 and renewed in 2010, was being strongly debated in the Nordic nation and has caused divisions within the Social Democrat-Green coalition government, Swedish media reported.

The leader of the Swedish Left Party Jonas Sjöstedt referred to the news to end the deal as a “victory” and wrote on Twitter: “Credible feminist politics demanded this.”

But former Foreign Minister Carl Bildt sharply criticised the government.

"This is not least about Sweden's credibility as a contractual partner. That credibility is important to a relatively small country like Sweden,” he wrote on his blog. “What has happened is unfortunate. Sweden has been damaged.”

According to a report in the Swedish The Local, Sweden will not immediately cancel all sales of weapons to Saudi Arabia, but will withdraw help in areas including military systems, training and transfers of technology.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by loomer »

Eleas wrote:I love how now suddenly Saudi Arabia + closest friends has become synonymous with "the Arab World." Also, tell me again why Saudi Arabia should feel grateful that Sweden admits immigrants?

...

The "arab world" is not monolithic, and the actions of Saudi Arabia certainly don't express the Will of the Eeebul Moozlems, no matter what you try to imply in this thread. They simply have a lot of influence due to Western money and Western military support, all of which you seem keen on glossing over.
Did you miss that the OIC got involved or are you an idiot? No one has claimed Saudi Arabia represents all islam - but the nations that have been invoked ARE part of the OIC, which has chosen to side with SA. In case you are unaware: the entire Arab World is part of the OIC with the exception of the Western Sahara, and all disputing parties there are. So yes, it is accurate to say that in this matter, it is the Arab World as represented by the OIC that is lashing out at Sweden.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Purple »

Stas Bush wrote:
Purple wrote:Or, and this might come as a shock and will probably be completely beyond comprehension to your black-white good-bad all-nothing absolutist mind we could do something that falls in between "nothing" and "destroy the nation of Saudi Arabia causing untold suffering to its people for generations to come".
So, ending the rule of the House of Saud means 'untold suffering for generations to come'? Know what? Fuck you.
No, I would actually not even be terribly opposed to that. You asked me a question containing the word "how". I gave you an answer to that question. An answer that goes: "Not like this."
Stas Bush wrote:So no, Sidewinder, Saudi Arabia collapsing does not mean things will get worse, especially if they collapse due to no oil money being left. Without oil money they cannot sponsor islamist nutjobs with, well, money. No money - no weapons - no jihad. Very easy.

Saudi Arabia should fall, and the sooner the better.
You want the country to fail and the people to suffer your vengeful punishment. I would prefer a change of government that precludes that from happening if at all possible.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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Because, idiot, if it does not fail, there is nothing precluding the Saudis from funding radicals endlessly. Of course in your world Saudis are the victim (and here comes another obligatory fuck you).
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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I hate them too. They are corrupting Islam with their Wahabbi ways. It's going to be another five centuries before there is ever some kind of reformation of Islam thanks to those hardcore nutties.
Pity the US has been slobbering Saudi dick since forever. Can't wait for next generation of energy production.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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loomer wrote:
Eleas wrote:I love how now suddenly Saudi Arabia + closest friends has become synonymous with "the Arab World." Also, tell me again why Saudi Arabia should feel grateful that Sweden admits immigrants?

...

The "arab world" is not monolithic, and the actions of Saudi Arabia certainly don't express the Will of the Eeebul Moozlems, no matter what you try to imply in this thread. They simply have a lot of influence due to Western money and Western military support, all of which you seem keen on glossing over.
Did you miss that the OIC got involved or are you an idiot? No one has claimed Saudi Arabia represents all islam - but the nations that have been invoked ARE part of the OIC, which has chosen to side with SA. In case you are unaware: the entire Arab World is part of the OIC with the exception of the Western Sahara, and all disputing parties there are. So yes, it is accurate to say that in this matter, it is the Arab World as represented by the OIC that is lashing out at Sweden.
While I can understand the sentiment of trying to compensate for western prejudice against Islam, it's also going too far to refuse to see that even Muslims who dislike the Saudi government also do not respect western liberals.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Purple »

Stas Bush wrote:Because, idiot, if it does not fail, there is nothing precluding the Saudis from funding radicals endlessly. Of course in your world Saudis are the victim (and here comes another obligatory fuck you).
The saudi government and their people are not one and the same. You can get rid of one without completely fucking over the other. People like you are all too willing to ignore this and just chalk the suffering of untold people down as collateral damage. Me, I'd gladly replace them with a different government that is not run by radical islamic madmen. But I'd also make bloody sure that I don't destroy the country and its people in the process. You on the other hand just don't give a dam. You are no better than ISIS. You both just want to get your way and don't care who gets crushed in the process.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by K. A. Pital »

Purple wrote:The saudi government and their people are not one and the same.
Having the passport of KSA means being filthy rich by ME standards and belonging to a 'higher caste' in the Arab world, if you wish.
Purple wrote:You can get rid of one without completely fucking over the other.
Just like in Libya and Syria... wait.
Purple wrote:People like you are all too willing to ignore this and just chalk the suffering of untold people down as collateral damage.
Sure, let's just hope for Stauffenberg to succeed, right?
Purple wrote:You are no better than ISIS. You both just want to get your way and don't care who gets crushed in the process.
Who is worse - ISIS or people who fund ISIS while smiling together with Western politicians on camera? The answer's up to you, dumbass.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Purple »

Stas Bush wrote:Having the passport of KSA means being filthy rich by ME standards and belonging to a 'higher caste' in the Arab world, if you wish.
I don't know or want to know the details of citizens, people who just live there or really anyone in between. A life is a life is a life.
Just like in Libya and Syria... wait.
Which is exactly why I urge caution. Think before acting, make a good plan. And all that. As opposed to your approach of Let god sort them out!"

I would like to think, or at least pretend that we have advanced beyond that sort of thinking.
Sure, let's just hope for Stauffenberg to succeed, right?
I get the reference but not its relevancy.
Who is worse - ISIS or people who fund ISIS while smiling together with Western politicians on camera? The answer's up to you, dumbass.
They are both the same. And so is the person who would go and commit genocide on ISIS to stop them from being ISIS.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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I don't know, Purple. I'm okay with destroying ISIS root and stem seeing as they've, you know, been enslaving, raping, and butchering whole populations because, spoiler alert: it is morally acceptable and ethically valid to kill people who are actively engaged in an ongoing campaign of raping, enslaving, and killing others. If ISIS won't stop for anything but being put in the ground? Put them in the goddamn ground. I'm a pacifist, for fuck's sake, and even I view it as morally right at this point to directly engage ISIS with force in the defence of the people they have enslaved, raped, and butchered.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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Yeah, once you cross the line into actual sex slavery (and this not being isolated incidents, I have seen the "market prices" for captured women), widespread destruction of culture and complete ignoring of any laws of diplomacy and war, you are kinda limited to killing them because negotiation is not an option for them. Heck, ISIS makes the Taliban look moderate in comparison.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Purple »

loomer wrote:I don't know, Purple. I'm okay with destroying ISIS root and stem seeing as they've, you know, been enslaving, raping, and butchering whole populations because, spoiler alert: it is morally acceptable and ethically valid to kill people who are actively engaged in an ongoing campaign of raping, enslaving, and killing others. If ISIS won't stop for anything but being put in the ground? Put them in the goddamn ground. I'm a pacifist, for fuck's sake, and even I view it as morally right at this point to directly engage ISIS with force in the defence of the people they have enslaved, raped, and butchered.
Alright, I guess I did make a rather bad example there. My point is that if you do evil unto evil you don't fix things. You just end up causing a net increase in world evil. And that you can not punish entire nations, their people and their offspring because their leadership is doing something you disprove off. We have advanced as a race beyond the point where "cartage must be destroyed" is considered a valid and sensible political statement. And stas refuses to admit that.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

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Purple wrote:Alright, I guess I did make a rather bad example there. My point is that if you do evil unto evil you don't fix things. You just end up causing a net increase in world evil. And that you can not punish entire nations, their people and their offspring because their leadership is doing something you disprove off. We have advanced as a race beyond the point where "cartage must be destroyed" is considered a valid and sensible political statement. And stas refuses to admit that.
That's bullshit. By that logic fighting the Nazis was a bad thing to do. By that logic fighting against ISIS is a bad thing to do.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Purple »

Thanas wrote:
Purple wrote:Alright, I guess I did make a rather bad example there. My point is that if you do evil unto evil you don't fix things. You just end up causing a net increase in world evil. And that you can not punish entire nations, their people and their offspring because their leadership is doing something you disprove off. We have advanced as a race beyond the point where "cartage must be destroyed" is considered a valid and sensible political statement. And stas refuses to admit that.
That's bullshit. By that logic fighting the Nazis was a bad thing to do. By that logic fighting against ISIS is a bad thing to do.
When the war ended, the first thing the allies did with Germany was start rebuilding it so that the future suffering of its people would be mitigated and that Germany would not be as stas suggested "destroyed".
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Thanas »

Purple wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Purple wrote:Alright, I guess I did make a rather bad example there. My point is that if you do evil unto evil you don't fix things. You just end up causing a net increase in world evil. And that you can not punish entire nations, their people and their offspring because their leadership is doing something you disprove off. We have advanced as a race beyond the point where "cartage must be destroyed" is considered a valid and sensible political statement. And stas refuses to admit that.
That's bullshit. By that logic fighting the Nazis was a bad thing to do. By that logic fighting against ISIS is a bad thing to do.
When the war ended, the first thing the allies did with Germany was start rebuilding it so that the future suffering of its people would be mitigated and that Germany would not be as stas suggested "destroyed".
How the fuck does that follow from what Stas is saying? You know that Stas and I seldom agree on things, but even I cannot read "cause perpetual suffering" into his demand to destroy Saudi Arabia. Nazi Germany was destroyed. After the destruction of Nazi Germany rebuilding started with assistance from the USA. There is nothing in the "destruction" of a state that precludes rebuilding.

Quite frankly, your idea that destruction of a state means perpetual suffering for its inhabitants is a giant strawman.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Channel72 »

I'm all for the destruction of Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism has been a destructive plague on the entire Middle East (and really the world).

If the House of Saud collapses economically, it will turn into something like Yemen: a shithole that breeds endless waves of extremist idiots, while the remaining Saudi billionaires flee to their mansions in Nice and Cannes. But the difference will be that the influence of KSA would be mostly limited to the GCC region - it would no longer be such a worldwide instigator of Islamic ultra-extremism.

So yeah, I agree with Stas. I hope it fails hard. But unfortunately that may not be the case for a long time, as the next half-century is not likely to see a significant decrease in fossil fuel consumption. However, it's unlikely Saudi Arabia can continue to pump out oil past 2030/2040, so their time is very limited. Recently, they've been investing a lot in the tech sector, but little has come to fruition out of that, since most of their best engineers end up in the USA or Europe anyway.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by K. A. Pital »

Destroying a state does not necessarily mean condemning its citizens to perpetual suffering. Imperial Japan and Germany are only a few examples. There are more. Would the end of the DPRK necessarily be a bad thing?
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ray245
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by ray245 »

It's the fact that any major reconstruction project other than Japan and Germany has been largely unsuccessful. At the least Germany and Japan had undergo very strong process of building a sense of national identity that allow it's people to look to state structure as a means of organising themselves. Saudi Arabia on the other hand, relies on its monarchy as the only key thing that binds their 'nation' together.

Can the region find any sort of governing body that has any sense of legitimacy once the monarchy is removed? If the only alternative form of governing body lies in the mosque, it doesn't solve anything.

We found out that destroying secular dictatorship doesn't necessary mean they will be an ease in suffering In Iraq and Libya for instance.
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Eleas
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Re: Sweden condemned by the Arab-world

Post by Eleas »

loomer wrote:Did you miss that the OIC got involved or are you an idiot? No one has claimed Saudi Arabia represents all islam - but the nations that have been invoked ARE part of the OIC, which has chosen to side with SA. In case you are unaware: the entire Arab World is part of the OIC with the exception of the Western Sahara, and all disputing parties there are. So yes, it is accurate to say that in this matter, it is the Arab World as represented by the OIC that is lashing out at Sweden.
No, you're right, I missed the full ramifications of the OIC being involved, so my contention doesn't work. I withdraw my objection to cosmicalstorm's points; his argument is valid.
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