The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

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Dominus Atheos
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The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Dominus Atheos »

Unfortunately the original article requires a subscription, and I have no idea if The Times is even a reputable source.
Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

President Putin is using the threat of a nuclear showdown over the Baltic states to force Nato to back away from Russia’s border, acording to notes of a secret meeting between intelligence figures from Moscow and Washington.

Western security chiefs are braced for the Kremlin to begin a series of “destabilising actions” in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania that would directly challenge Nato’s mutual defence pledge.

These could involve civil disturbances involving local ethnic Russians, or a cyberattack that could not be definitively traced back to Moscow...
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/worl ... 399758.ece

Here is The Independent's write up of the article:
Russia threatens to use 'nuclear force' over Crimea and the Baltic states


Russia has threatened to use “nuclear force” to defend its annexation of Crimea and warned that the “same conditions” that prompted it to take military action in Ukraine exist in the three Baltic states, all members of Nato.

According to notes made by an American at a meeting between Russian generals and US officials – and seen by The Times newspaper - Moscow threatened a “spectrum of responses from nuclear to non-military” if Nato moved more forces into Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

The Russians told the meeting, which took place in Germany last month, that an attempt to return Crimea to Ukraine would be met “forcefully including through the use of nuclear force”.

And they said if Nato sent arms to Ukraine this would be seen as “further encroachment by Nato to the Russian border” and “the Russian people would demand a forceful response”.

They added that “the same conditions that existed in Ukraine and caused Russia to take action there” existed in the three Baltic states, which like Ukraine have significant numbers of people who regard themselves as ethnically Russian.

Russia was considering taking steps in the Baltics, according to the notes, but this would most likely be “destabilising actions that would be even harder to trace back to Russia than those of eastern Ukraine”.

The notes suggest Moscow would avoid “injections of troops and heavy weapons in favour of other tools”.

“Russia would hope slowly to entice those Russian populations towards Russia without giving Nato a pretext to deploy troops,” the document adds.

If Nato then responded, that would make it “a potential co-aggressor against Russian-speaking minorities in Baltic states”, a situation described as “potentially more dangerous than that in Ukraine to the United States”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 50565.html
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by LaCroix »

Strange, nothing about that in German news...
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by jwl »

The times is a reputable source, yes.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Patroklos »

*Yawn*

If anyone thinks Russia is going to do anything nuclear over just stationing anything other than nukes in the Baltics then they are delusional and rattled too easily. It makes for a great headline though, which is the only reason its "news."
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Simon_Jester »

I suspect the Times has been taken in or is greatly overestimating the scope of the problem. They're not disreputable but that doesn't make them correct.

Of course, if it IS true, then Putin's forgotten everything the Soviets ever knew about nuclear doctrine and that's a very dangerous thing to forget.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by K. A. Pital »

I believe it is a misunderstanding. Responding to an attack on Crimea (a key Russian military installation in the Black Sea) with nuclear weapons is pretty much an obvious threat which should prevent foreign involvement. However, then the paper goes on to equate the response to a question about Crimea with some other territories, none of which currently belong to Russia de-facto or house Russian military installations, servicemen and the like.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Wojtek_Pod »

I am not sure if the news is real as well.

Perpaps it's simply a publicity stunt on the Russian's side - threatening with nuclear retaliation for having slightly strenghtened garrison is almost comically diproportionate. Even normally allarmistic Polish news sites call it a bluff.

But I wonder why do they do that. Don't they know they start sounding like a North Korea? :wtf: What are they going to achieve with it except confirming that they like to have their Baltic neighbours completely defenceless?

They are certainly not winning any friends with stunts like these... :roll:
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Shit like this is why I strongly support investing as much money as possible into missile defence and continuing sanctions on Russia. I hope their isn't a war and I think we should not start one or do anything that is likely to start one, but if their is a war in the future, we want to have as strong a defence as possible and we want them to be as weak as possible.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Channel72 »

Perhaps 80s nostalgia has brought MAD doctrine back into vogue.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by The Romulan Republic »

To be honest, I think that, barring a great shift in the nature of human civilization, their will probably be a nuclear world war eventually. I hope not, and I would not be so arrogant as to claim that such a thing is certain, but I feel like sooner or later our luck may run out. I only hope we can stave it off until a) our defences are a lot more effective than they are now and b) humans are on more than one world.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Simon_Jester »

I, in turn, think that such a nuclear war is unlikely, made more unlikely by the end of the global cold war. Now a bit more likely with Russia rattling and brandishing its sabre, but hardly a predictable certainty within the next few decades.
____________

Stas is right; the quotes actually recorded in the articles we have in this thread indicate only that Russia is treating the Crimea as an integral part of Russian soil and therefore it is under their nuclear umbrella.

If there's anything about a "nuclear showdown over Baltics," the Times didn't quote that passage, and if the quotes they did put in the article are the most damning ones they have... frankly, a Times reporter just failed basic language comprehension and logic. Hard.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Patroklos »

Russia only does this because the faint amongst us take it seriously. Russia itself doesn't. You can claim they are thugs, undemocratic, fascists or whatever else you want but they are neither idiots or suicidal. As soon as we all yawn like we should they will stop and find something else to goud us with.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

The Romulan Republic wrote:To be honest, I think that, barring a great shift in the nature of human civilization, their will probably be a nuclear world war eventually. I hope not, and I would not be so arrogant as to claim that such a thing is certain, but I feel like sooner or later our luck may run out. I only hope we can stave it off until a) our defences are a lot more effective than they are now and b) humans are on more than one world.
John Lewis Gaddis uses declassified US and Soviet docs in The Cold War: A New History to make a pretty good case that the "close calls" during the Cold War (like the Cuban Missile Crisis) weren't actually close at all and no person in a position of power has ever seriously considered starting a nuclear war, despite the saber rattling rhetoric on both sides that made it seem like any aggression would provoke a nuclear response. It's a lot cheaper to threaten mushroom clouds than to actually fund a big enough conventional military to protect your assets, after all.

Between that, the ozone layer scare, air pollution in the industrialized world, and recent signs that leaders are actually starting to take climate change seriously, it seems like humans are dumb enough to shoot ourselves in the foot, but not in the head.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I hope you're right. Still, any precautions that we can take just in case without escalating things in a manner that might cause a war are a good idea in my book.

Edit: I'm generally of the attitude that one should prepare for the worst but hope for the best.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Simon_Jester »

Missile defense is a reasonable precaution, I think, yes.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by cosmicalstorm »

A very public display of an atmospheric detonation of a megaton sized hydrogen bomb once every X months filmed and broadcasted live to the entire world would be good too.

Putin worries me a bit. It seems he might grasp for the Baltics. I'm worried he will be put in a vicious feedbackloop where internal problems makes him want to create external pressure to balance it causing him to do something stupid.

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Weapons Flood Into Putin's European Arms Depot
By Elisabeth Braw / March 30, 2015 7:58 AM EDT


While the world watched Russia’s North Fleet with trepidation as it launched surprise exercises near the Arctic Circle last week, Vladimir Putin has quietly been arming another area inside Europe’s borders: Kaliningrad, the Russian seaport city in a region sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, with convenient access to the Baltic Sea. Vessels from Russia’s Baltic Fleet have delivered fighter jets and Iskander missile launchers to the former German city, from where missiles could reach not just to Warsaw and Vilnius but Germany as well.

Sources say that, with sea transport neither quick nor easy to organise, it’s clear the Russian armed forces had planned the recent delivery for some time. Indeed, the Russian army has spent the past several years equipping its Baltic territory with state-of-the-art weaponry. Regional security officials now call Kaliningrad a veritable arms depot. “The Russian armed forces have, for example, installed new S-400 [anti-aircraft missiles] there, which have an incredibly long range,” says Johan Wiktorin, a Swedish former military intelligence officer and author of the 2013 book Korridoren till Kaliningrad (The Corridor to Kaliningrad). The arming of Kaliningrad forms part of a 19-trillion-rouble (€296bn) plan to increase the share of modern weapons in the Russian armed forces’ arsenal from 10% to 70%.

According to a recent report by the Casimir Pulaski Foundation, a Polish security think tank, the plan features the acquisition of 120 Iskanders along with 600 aircraft, 1,100 helicopters, 100 ships and 2,300 tanks. Some of these heavy-hitters, including jet fighters and bombers, were recently delivered to a base outside the city where Immanuel Kant wrote his famous treatise on eternal peace.

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Isolated from Russia, Kaliningrad depends on the mainland for deliveries of everything from clothes to vodka – and those deliveries take place by rail and road transport through Lithuania. Such traffic, Lithuanian foreign minister Linas Linkevičius has warned, is something his country may decide to stop. “If the Russians want a pretext to launch a new invasion, the transit to Kaliningrad would be a useful excuse,” says Andrius Kubilius, Lithuania’s former prime minister and now its parliamentary opposition leader. “They have enough fantasy to try something different than Crimea.”

But while Kaliningrad’s tanks and fighter jets give Russia’s Baltic Sea neighbours enough sleepless nights, the Iskanders pose a threat of a different magnitude. The nine-year-old missile launcher is capable of launching both conventional and nuclear missiles, and it does so with much better accuracy than its predecessors.

A conventional warhead launched from an Iskander can officially reach a target 400km away with five-metre accuracy range, crucially putting it below the 500km limit required by the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty signed by Russia. But according to several independent studies, including one by Finland’s National Defence University, Iskander missiles can travel 700km. From its Baltic base, an Iskander-launched bomb could easily destroy, for example, the German parliament.

Because nuclear-capable states keep the location of their warheads a secret, nobody knows for sure whether Kaliningrad is also housing atomic bombs. But, given that transporting and mounting nuclear warheads requires little time – inserting a warhead into its launcher can take as little as 15 minutes, their presence or absence at any given time makes little difference.

“The infrastructure for tactical nuclear weapons is still there,” says Rasa Juknevičienė, Lithuania’s former defence minister. “And we don’t know whether the Iskanders in Kaliningrad are ready for use,” adds Wiktorin. “The Russians keep their state of completeness a secret as a way of influencing Nato actions in the region.”

Those actions, of course, include Nato forces and exercises in the Baltic states. Russia isn’t the only power there flexing its muscles. The recent turn of events in Kaliningrad would have shocked Immanuel Kant, the city’s most illustrious son, who developed his theory on human reason during daily walks through what was then Prussian Königsberg, “the Venice of the North”. And the transformation of the 18th-century philosopher’s home city into an arms depot has come as a shock to European development officials too.

Over the past six years, the European Reconstruction and Development Bank (ERDB), the Nordic Investment Bank, the Swedish development agency (SIDA) and the Northern Dimension Environmental Partnership have transferred funds amounting to a total of €26m to Kaliningrad for the construction of a sewage plant. But a letter seen by Newsweek reveals that these agencies have now taken the local governor to task for having made no progress at all on the plant. “Fifteen hundred cubic metres of raw sewage continues to be discharged into our common Baltic Sea every 24 hours,” they write. Kaliningrad’s neighbours have got a distinctly rotten deal: enormous quantities of sewage and a serious weapon threat. By next month, the agencies want proof that the Kaliningraders are making progress on the plant. But with the funds already spent, there’s little hope for clean water.

Intelligence officials in the region, speaking with Newsweek on condition of anonymity, report another dubious inflow to the exclave. Goods banned under the current trade sanctions are now reportedly making their way to Kaliningrad from Poland and Lithuania. (Europol reports having “no solid information” on the matter.) That adds a new string to Kaliningrad’s black market, which has, until now, mostly featured in contraband cigarette smuggling from Russia to Europe. Undeterred by the worrisome news, Kaliningrad is eagerly promoting tourism, extolling the exclave’s “unique sources of health tourism”.

“The Russians’ placing of their missile launchers in the oblast (district) can cause Nato serious trouble,” a military official in the region says. “But all the high-tech wizardry is vulnerable there as well, being so close to Nato territory and with Kaliningrad cut off from Russia. And the armed forces in Kaliningrad can’t receive reinforcements through ground transport unless the Red Army pushes through.” Kaliningrad’s Iskanders and its tourism officials are on an unmistakable collision course.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by jwl »

cosmicalstorm wrote:A very public display of an atmospheric detonation of a megaton sized hydrogen bomb once every X months filmed and broadcasted live to the entire world would be good too.
I don't think atomic bomb tests are legal under international law anymore.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Zaune »

Neither is meddling in the internal affairs of a buffer state because they had the impudence to decide the polity on the other border was offering better trade terms. That doesn't appear to have much deterred Tsar Vladimir...
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Underground detonation of sub-150kT bombs remains legal. Above ground testing was banned in the 1960s by the Partial Test Ban Treaty; this was followed by the Threshold Test Ban Treaty which banned detonation of devices of greater than 150kT yield.
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Re: The Times: Putin threat of nuclear showdown over Baltics

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

NATO whines about Kaliningrad, and Russia whines about NATO bases in the Baltics.

Someone should pass a mirror to both sides and have them look at the mirror while they whine.
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