Greece Nazi Occupation: Athens asks Germany for 279bn Euros

[Baffalo]

The Greek government says Germany owes Greece nearly €279bn (£204bn; $303bn) in war reparations for the Nazi occupation during World War Two.
It is the first time Greece has officially calculated what Germany allegedly owes it for Nazi atrocities and looting during the 1940s.

However, the German government says the issue was resolved legally years ago.

Greece's radical left Syriza government is making the claim while struggling to meet massive debt repayment deadlines.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras raised the reparations issue when he met German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin last month.

The new figure given by Greek Deputy Finance Minister Dimitris Mardas includes €10.3bn for an occupation loan that the Nazis forced the Bank of Greece to pay.

"According to our calculations, the debt linked to German reparations is 278.7bn euros," Mr Mardas told a parliamentary committee investigating responsibility for Greece's debt crisis.

Mr Mardas said the reparations calculation had been made by Greece's state general accounting office.

Berlin paid 115m Deutschmarks to Athens in 1960 in compensation - a fraction of the Greek demand. Greece says it did not cover payments for damaged infrastructure, war crimes and the return of the forced loan.

Germany insists the reparations issue was settled in 1990 legally and politically before Germany reunified.

Syriza politicians have frequently blamed Germany for the hardship suffered by Greeks under the tough bailout conditions imposed by international lenders.

Mr Tsipras is trying to renegotiate the €240bn EU-IMF bailout that saved Greece from bankruptcy. Greece has not received bailout funds since August last year, as the lenders are dissatisfied with the pace of Greek reforms.

A Greek repayment of €448m to the International Monetary Fund is due this Thursday.

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has said that Greece "intends to meet all obligations to all its creditors, ad infinitum".

Source

Is it me or does this seem to be a direct result of Germany refusing to float Greece a loan a while back?

[Borgholio]

Is it me or does this seem to be a direct result of Germany refusing to float Greece a loan a while back?

No, this is Greece being shit in the hole financially and trying to get money from wherever they can.

[Thanas]

Notice how they don't ask for reparations from the Italians, despite the Italians doing most of the occupation and war crimes in Greece (and attacked the country in the first place). That is because they hope to split Italy from Germany and because this is not done to seek justice of any kind, but rather to calm the domestic side of Greek politics and to gain the moral high ground again (Though if we go down that route, I bet the the Greeks of all people don't want to get into a debate about who owes what from what war considering their martial history). This is a ploy from a desperate, sinking Government to take attention away from their failure to present reform plans that are anything but wishful thinking to their creditors.

I don't know what they hope to gain from this, alienating public opinion in Germany when said public opinion of sending more money to Greece is already at an all-time low probably only serves for one thing - getting cover for when they exit the Euro.

They know that this stupid demand will not be given any serious consideration, but can go back to their electorate with more "it's everyone else's fault" as an excuse for how incompetent they are.

[Patroklos]

This demand is hilarious on its face, but when you compare it to the reparations of all forms provided to the other nations maligned by Germany in WWII it becomes ridiculous. Granted the greatest suffers of WW2 aggression received significant territorial compensation above and beyond money and material, but still Greece has no leg to stand on here.

[Lord Revan]

If they honestly was asking for a compensation for wrongs done to them the greek goverment might have something of an argument but the timing tells it's really nothing more then asking for a loan the greek don't have pay back.

[Patroklos]

I agree, but this is not the firs time the Greeks have brought this up. They are certainly capitalizing on it but the current office holders did not invent this out of thin air.

[Welf]

Notice how they don't ask for reparations from the Italians, despite the Italians doing most of the occupation and war crimes in Greece (and attacked the country in the first place). That is because they hope to split Italy from Germany and because this is not done to seek justice of any kind, but rather to calm the domestic side of Greek politics and to gain the moral high ground again (Though if we go down that route, I bet the the Greeks of all people don't want to get into a debate about who owes what from what war considering their martial history). This is a ploy from a desperate, sinking Government to take attention away from their failure to present reform plans that are anything but wishful thinking to their creditors.

I don't know what they hope to gain from this, alienating public opinion in Germany when said public opinion of sending more money to Greece is already at an all-time low probably only serves for one thing - getting cover for when they exit the Euro.

They know that this stupid demand will not be given any serious consideration, but can go back to their electorate with more "it's everyone else's fault" as an excuse for how incompetent they are.

I think the Greek government is doing the best they can, and unfortunately that means doing this. It's wrong to call them "incompetent", in fact they know better what to do that Schäuble and the Troika. After all, the original austerity plans from 2010 have been a complete disaster, based on no science at all and instead on gut feelings.
The Greeks made reasonable suggestion a few months ago and instead of showing some solidarity and recognize their own failure the Troika tried to force them to continue the same old policies. Syriza had to realize that this isn't about helping them but about saving face for the other governments. If the governments of Britain, Spain, Ireland and Portugal admit that austerity was a failure they will face some very harsh questions at home. If Schäuble admits austerity was good for nothing, he and his conservative ideology will lose a lot of power in Europe; not to mention that the German voter has been fed with so much hate that this will hurt the conservatives in the next elections. The right-wingers from AfD and libertarians from FDP would like that.

So Syriza has a choice now; either they sacrifice their people and country for other people's careers, or they leave the table. Bringing up the war debt thus makes a lot of sense. Either they get their claims, either fully or partially, and can solve their economic problems, or they can create a story for their voters. They face no cost for this since the Germans hate them anyway and the German government doesn't help them.

[Thanas]

I think the Greek government is doing the best they can, and unfortunately that means doing this.

It is a very strange world where alienating the very people on whose money you depend while getting nothing out of it is doing the best one can do.

The Greeks made reasonable suggestion a few months ago

No they didn't. Their suggestions were a disorganized mess with no figures attached to it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It is a very strange world where alienating the very people on whose money you depend while getting nothing out of it is doing the best one can do.

Let's be honest: There's was never any sympathy to be gotten or had anyway. So this is just the latest in a series of digging in on positions on both sides of the table.

[Thanas]

It is a very strange world where alienating the very people on whose money you depend while getting nothing out of it is doing the best one can do.

Let's be honest: There's was never any sympathy to be gotten or had anyway. So this is just the latest in a series of digging in on positions on both sides of the table.

If there was never any sympathy then they wouldn't have agreed to an extension for the loans in the first place.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If there was never any sympathy then they wouldn't have agreed to an extension for the loans in the first place.

No. Injecting emotions into this complex calculus of decisions is pointless. Right now, the question is finding a solution that politically palatable to all sides and yet a solution that is practical. They gave an extension because without it, the Greek government either 1. cannot pay, 2. cannot survive politically.

Right now, the question is face saving for everyone on both sides, because without that question, it will then be the nuclear option which many are still desperate to avoid because of the effects on the EU's image as a political entity.

Never mind that it will put paid to any kind of further integration of the EU for a long time.

[Thanas]

If injecting emotions is pointless, then why do you defend Greece for making it even harder for Germany to give in?

[Baffalo]

I wish I knew a lot more about the politics of the EU so I would appreciate a little context here.

It seems to me that Greece is trying to alienate Germany and still beg for money from anyone who will supply it. Given that the IMF and the EU have both seen nothing but a drain from Greece, can the other members call for a vote to remove Greece from the EU by force? If so, what would that do to the stability in the region, given that it would likely sink the Greek economy to the point of collapse? And with the rumors I heard of neo-Nazis, is there potential for a radical group to take power and form a new Nazi state?

Also, thank you Thanas for fixing the quote tags in my post.

[Thanas]

I wish I knew a lot more about the politics of the EU so I would appreciate a little context here.

It seems to me that Greece is trying to alienate Germany and still beg for money from anyone who will supply it. Given that the IMF and the EU have both seen nothing but a drain from Greece, can the other members call for a vote to remove Greece from the EU by force?

No. One can only voluntarily leave the Eurozone. But the other members can vote for Greece not getting any funds, at which point they will have to go bankrupt/leave.

If so, what would that do to the stability in the region, given that it would likely sink the Greek economy to the point of collapse?

Nothing good for the region, even worse news for the Greek economy. The only thing keeping Greece afloat is the European (and German) willingness to vouch for their debts...so far. If Greece collapses, it will be worse than in Argentina. Much worse, as Argentina always had a trade surplus. Even moreso, the EU subsidies which kept Greece in the market will be gone. To put that in context, since their accession to the EU, Greece has received from the European Union €104,812 million in net profit over what it has contributed. Depending on the character of the exit, they might also lose free market access.

On the plus side, tourism will be dirt cheap so there is a potential for more European tourists....that is, if anybody wants to still go there considering the public perception Greece is getting.

And with the rumors I heard of neo-Nazis, is there potential for a radical group to take power and form a new Nazi state?

That might happen, they got a realistic chance. I mean, a party that would be labelled extremist in Germany is already the coalition partner of the socialists (Said party also threatened to send terrorists to Germany under a Greek visa if Germany would not pay up, such charming individuals).

[Tribble]

Again... no one should be surprised about this. As I've stated before the longer this farce of having Greece in the eurozone continues, the worse it will get. Even if the current Greek government ends up capitulating in the end (which seems more and more unlikely), an even more extreme government would soon take its place. IMO it's in everyone's best interests that there is a negotiated Greek exit now rather than kicking the can down the road and wait until things get worse.

This is like watching a band-aid being pulled off really, really slowly.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If injecting emotions is pointless, then why do you defend Greece for making it even harder for Germany to give in?

I never defended them. I am saying this has long become a zero sum game because no one wants to give in. Your country has pretty much vilified Greece to a point that few in Germany has any sympathy for Greece anyway. And for Greece, the feelings are mutual.

Essentially, the situation is now a stalemate and this is where the hard choices must be taken.

[Thanas]

So what hard choice is made by asking for a ridiculous sum of money of which there is zero chance of success?

[Baffalo]

Thank you for the explanation Thanas, it helps clarify a few things in my head.

Again... no one should be surprised about this. As I've stated before the longer this farce of having Greece in the eurozone continues, the worse it will get. Even if the current Greek government ends up capitulating in the end (which seems more and more unlikely), an even more extreme government would soon take its place. IMO it's in everyone's best interests that there is a negotiated Greek exit now rather than kicking the can down the road and wait until things get worse.

This is like watching a band-aid being pulled off really, really slowly.

Greece will never negotiate their exit for several reasons:

• So long as they're part of the EU, Greece is getting access to free markets for what little they're actually producing, and they're making tourism incredibly easy.
• The Greek government is using the EU as the boogy men when anything goes wrong. Your streets are shitty and your house is falling down? It's because those greedy bastards in Germany aren't giving us the money we need. Here we are, telling them how horrible it is, and they're sitting on those giant piles of money and saying no. They're the reason your baby is going hungry.
• Any negotiated exit would no doubt include keeping the Euro in some way. They want it because a return to the drachma would be disasterous for them. Their economy would instantly implode because it wouldn't be worth anything, and at least with the Euro they could claim "Hey, our money's worth SOMETHING!" Their only other alternative would be to set the drachma against the Euro, such as 3 drachma to the Euro or something. Even that would only delay the inevitable.
• It would be literally impossible to take them seriously at the negotiating table. They'd either come in with a list of demands and refuse to budge, or they'd come in with a hyper inflated list of demands that they can easily back off from to make themselves look "reasonable" but basically drag it along so long that the government would collapse before they could get anywhere.

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across this while researching the Drachma: Bloomberg Terminals test a Post-Euro Drachma

We're looking into this, but we can confirm: There's something called the 'Greek Drachma (post Euro)' that's shown up on the Bloomberg terminal.

We've seen tons of tweets and screengrabs of the page.

There's nothing really behind the ticker. No quotes or anything. It's just there.

We're also not sure if it's actually new, or if it's just something that's shown up.

We'll let you know what we figure out.

UPDATE: According to the Bloomberg help desk, this is currently "an internal function which is set up to test."

The representative could not tell us when any data would go live or what it whether it was set to follow data ahead of a Greek exit from the euro.

UPDATE II: Thanks to @world_first for spotting that the Drachma has now been taken off Bloomberg.

[J]

There's a lot of political theatre for sure, however, there may be some basis for a smaller claim against the Germans.

This is a link to a fairly long article from Der Speigel, from which I'll quote the key paragraphs
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 24762.html

The central question in the report is that of forced loans the Nazi occupiers extorted from the Greek central bank beginning in 1941. Should requests for repayment of those loans be classified as reparation demands -- demands that may have been forfeited with the Two-Plus-Four Treaty of 1990? Or is it a genuine loan that must be paid back? The expert commission analyzed contracts and agreements from the time of the occupation as well as receipts, remittance slips and bank statements.

They found that the forced loans do not fit into the category of classical war reparations. The commission calculated the outstanding German "debt" to the Greek central bank and came to a total sum of $12.8 billion as of December 2014, which would amount to about €11 billion.

As such, at issue between Germany and Greece is no longer just the question as to whether the 115 million deutsche marks paid to the Greek government from 1961 onwards for its peoples' suffering during the occupation sufficed as legal compensation for the massacres like those in the villages of Distomo and Kalavrita. Now the key issue is whether the successor to the German Reich, the Federal Republic of Germany, is responsible for paying back loans extorted by the Nazi occupiers. There's some evidence to indicate that this may be the case.

In terms of the amount of the loan debt, the Greek auditors have come to almost the same findings as those of the Nazis' bookkeepers shortly before the end of the war. Hitler's auditors estimated 26 days before the war's end that the "outstanding debt" the Reich owed to Greece at 476 million Reichsmarks.

Auditors in Athens calculated an "open credit line" for the same period of time of around $213 million. They assumed a dollar exchange rate to the Reichsmark of 2:1 and applied an interest escalation clause accepted by the German occupiers that would result in a value of more than €11 billion today.

I don't believe any of us are qualified to go through the nearly 200 pages in the report to verify all the numbers & legal claims. If we go by the article, the claims aren't entirely ridiculous and fabricated, and there may in fact be grounds for legal proceedings to collect on them.

[Thanas]

It is bullshit. If the loan was a valid loan, it was at 0% interest and with no fixed repayment date. In short, eternal free money. If the loan was a forced extraction of wealth, it got covered by the 2+4 treaty and the reparations paid in 1960. None of that gets you to 279 billion.

It is even more comical that Hagen Fleischer of all people is trotted out as some sort of authority on loans.


EDIT:

Meanwhile, Tsipras in Moscow had this to say:

We have discussed in detail how we can boost Greek exports to Russia, covering the huge negative trade balance.

And how we can attract Russian investment into the Greek economy... branches such as tourism, infrastructure, and how we can further strengthen our cultural, scientific, educational, academic exchange ties.

I once again want to say how important it is to restart and to forget the past.

Uh-Huh, important to forget the past...that happened because of reasons of barely half a year ago....but sure, 70 years ago? Let's remember that.

[Thanas]

I mean, instead of the article citing that buffoon Fleischer, how about citing an article that is actually done with an expert of international law?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 23474.html

[...]
SPIEGEL interviewed Frank Schorkopf, 44, a professor for international law at the Universtiy of Göttingen, about Athens' calls for justice.

[...]
SPIEGEL: Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has complained that the Germans are being silent and tricky …

Schorkopf: … but he is twisting the context. At the very latest, Greece was required to register claims for reparations at the end of the so-called Two-Plus-Four Treaty negotiations in 1990. In any case, the Greeks did not do so in time.
[...]
SPIEGEL: What about the forced Greek central bank loan of 1942 that is being so widely discussed?
Schorkopf: It was not a standard loan contract, particularly because there was no interest payments attached to it. In my view, it thus falls into the category of reparations and, as such, the issue is already finalized. If you take a different view, the Greeks would only be able to demand a repayment of the loan, but no interest.

More at the link, including the offsetting claims, transfers etc.

[J]

As I'm not a lawyer, I shall defer to the experts on this subject.

But as I said earlier, all this bickering on war debts is a sideshow anyway, it's mostly for public consumption and part of playing the political game for Syriza. IMO, the interesting part is what may happen now that the Greek government has voted in favour of a commission to investigate the circumstances behind the bailouts in 2010 and 2012. If they find that a portion of those loans can be classed as odious debts, that is, loans which weren't taken on for the benefit of the people or the State, there is then legal grounds to write them off. For instance, one could make the argument that everything in purple in this chart was not in the interest of Greece or its people.

[Tribble]

So, who here believes the Greece will remain in the Eurozone in the long term?

[Grumman]

If they find that a portion of those loans can be classed as odious debts, that is, loans which weren't taken on for the benefit of the people or the State, there is then legal grounds to write them off. For instance, one could make the argument that everything in purple in this chart was not in the interest of Greece or its people.

Is the payment going to non-Greek financials accompanied by a corresponding reduction in Greek debt to those financials? If so, you cannot reasonably say that it was "not in the interest of Greece or its people." If I pay off your credit card for you that is done for your benefit, even if you do not directly receive any of the money.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So what hard choice is made by asking for a ridiculous sum of money of which there is zero chance of success?

As others have said, it's political theater. Just as you Germans have been dissing the PIGS, the Greeks have been dissing you in return.

Honestly, I think the Greeks should bite the real bitter pill and just quit the Euro which is way too overpriced for them to actually stage any kind of meaningful recovery.

Is the payment going to non-Greek financials accompanied by a corresponding reduction in Greek debt to those financials? If so, you cannot reasonably say that it was "not in the interest of Greece or its people." If I pay off your credit card for you that is done for your benefit, even if you do not directly receive any of the money.

The question is whether it is enough of a debt reduction.