Greece Nazi Occupation: Athens asks Germany for 279bn Euros

[FTeik]

The really sad things is that Greece would probably already be better of, if those clowns would spend the same amount of effort into getting their house in order than they do into accounting those reparation-demands.

[Metahive]

I think there's a pithy remark befitting this farce.

μολών λαβέ!

[Thanas]

Is the payment going to non-Greek financials accompanied by a corresponding reduction in Greek debt to those financials? If so, you cannot reasonably say that it was "not in the interest of Greece or its people." If I pay off your credit card for you that is done for your benefit, even if you do not directly receive any of the money.

The question is whether it is enough of a debt reduction.

Given that it was accompanied by a 53% cut in the overall debt of Greece (something people ignore when they claim Greece never had her debts cut like Germany did) then I would say so.

[Baffalo]

Meanwhile, Tsipras in Moscow had this to say:

We have discussed in detail how we can boost Greek exports to Russia, covering the huge negative trade balance.

And how we can attract Russian investment into the Greek economy... branches such as tourism, infrastructure, and how we can further strengthen our cultural, scientific, educational, academic exchange ties.

I once again want to say how important it is to restart and to forget the past.

Uh-Huh, important to forget the past...that happened because of reasons of barely half a year ago....but sure, 70 years ago? Let's remember that.

Let's see... on this date, 9 April 1945, the German pocket battleship Admiral Scheer is sunk by the Royal Air Force, the Battle of Königsberg in East Prussia ends, and the United States Atomic Energy Commission is formed.

Now, my sarcastic humor out of the way, let's discuss the important details there. In 1945, Nazi Germany was getting its ass handed to it by the Red Army and the Allied forces on two fronts. The Nazis were reeling, and it was pretty clear that the war was coming to a close. The Yalta Conference, for those unfamiliar with it, was a discussion between the Big Three: The United States, the United Kingdom, and the United Soviet Socialist Republic (U.S.S.R.), to discuss how they planned to organize Europe following the annihilation of Nazi Germany.

Now, why do we give two shits about this? Because Russia is claiming, "It's important to remember that the Germans caused so much suffering because they were Nazis at the time" while conveniently brushing the crimes they're guilty of, and the actions of Greece, under the rug. I know it's painfully obvious to spell this out but I want there to be absolutely no confusion when I say that the idea of Russia pouring a ton of money into Greece terrifies the absolute shit out of me, because the United States and Soviet Union did that quite a lot, especially from 1950 to 1953, 1955 to 1975, 1962, 1979 to 1989, and so on.

What will essentially happen is the following: The Russian Federation pours money into Greece, propping up its economy and giving them a reason to be happy. It also makes the Greek leadership entirely dependent on the Russian Federation, meaning that Greece becomes little more than a puppet state. They do what their Soviet Russian masters tell them to, or else the money stops. And it's convenient that they happen to be painting the Germans as bad people for crimes so long ago, because it drives a wedge into the EuroZone. Not much of one, but it's a chink in the armor that the Russians will exploit. They've shown they're not afraid of doing it, and there wouldn't be a lot to really do about it.

[Thanas]

Well, Russia cannot keep Greece afloat, so that threat is pretty empty.

[mr friendly guy]

I thought Putin pretty much has said Russia isn't pouring money into Greece. If they did its in their interest to let it be known. In any event I hear they are putting money into Hungary instead. Maybe the latter is a better "bet" than Greece.

I mean how many countries besides say US or China has the ability to single handedly bail out Greece.

[Baffalo]

Posted to CNN Money around 12 hours ago.

Athens said the 460 million euros ($497 million) payment has been scheduled, dismissing rumors the government might not have enough cash to pay on time.
By sending the money, Greece has bought itself time to secure the final portion of its 240 billion euro international bailout.
Eurozone finance ministers agreed earlier this year to extend Greece's bailout program, but only once they're happy with the country's plans for economic reforms.
Athens is pushing for the money to be released as soon as possible, to avoid stumbling out of the eurozone.

Also relevant from the BBC

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras did not ask for financial aid from Russia during talks in Moscow, Russia's President Vladimir Putin has said.
There had been speculation that Mr Tsipras would seek Russian aid to ease Greece's debt crisis, and to counter pressure from its creditors in the EU.
Mr Putin said Russia would consider loans to Greece for big joint projects, potentially in the energy sector.
But analysts say Russia's own economic woes mean any help would be limited.
Greece's new government is embroiled in negotiations with the EU and IMF to unblock a bailout package and could run out of funds within weeks.
Russia was among Greece's leading trade partners before sanctions on its energy industry and Greece's own economic difficulties reduced trade between the two countries by 40%.
Mr Putin called for trade relations to be restored, and said the two leaders had discussed "various ways of co-operating, including major projects in energy".
"Under these plans, we could provide loans for certain projects," he said, adding that it was not a question of aid.
One of those plans is for a pipeline called "Turkish Stream", to channel natural gas from the Turkish-Greek border into Greece.

Given these two stories, is this actually an attempt by Greece to get back on track? Or is this more a stunt to appear they're doing better without actually following through?

[Thanas]

Given this government, it is more likely Putin wasn't about to sacrifice three quarters of their currency reserve and a permanent budget cisis in order to bail out Greece and now Tsipras is selling it as just a visit between two Governments

Of course Tsipras always supported Moscow since he comes from the former communists, who were financed by Moscow.

[His Divine Shadow]

Posted to CNN Money around 12 hours ago.

Athens said the 460 million euros ($497 million) payment has been scheduled, dismissing rumors the government might not have enough cash to pay on time.
By sending the money, Greece has bought itself time to secure the final portion of its 240 billion euro international bailout.
Eurozone finance ministers agreed earlier this year to extend Greece's bailout program, but only once they're happy with the country's plans for economic reforms.
Athens is pushing for the money to be released as soon as possible, to avoid stumbling out of the eurozone.

Also relevant from the BBC

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras did not ask for financial aid from Russia during talks in Moscow, Russia's President Vladimir Putin has said.
There had been speculation that Mr Tsipras would seek Russian aid to ease Greece's debt crisis, and to counter pressure from its creditors in the EU.
Mr Putin said Russia would consider loans to Greece for big joint projects, potentially in the energy sector.
But analysts say Russia's own economic woes mean any help would be limited.
Greece's new government is embroiled in negotiations with the EU and IMF to unblock a bailout package and could run out of funds within weeks.
Russia was among Greece's leading trade partners before sanctions on its energy industry and Greece's own economic difficulties reduced trade between the two countries by 40%.
Mr Putin called for trade relations to be restored, and said the two leaders had discussed "various ways of co-operating, including major projects in energy".
"Under these plans, we could provide loans for certain projects," he said, adding that it was not a question of aid.
One of those plans is for a pipeline called "Turkish Stream", to channel natural gas from the Turkish-Greek border into Greece.

Given these two stories, is this actually an attempt by Greece to get back on track? Or is this more a stunt to appear they're doing better without actually following through?

From what I've read they are doing changes, and instead of more of this austerity retardation I also hear they're doing some proper closing of tax loopholes and going after people who try to coast on the backs of others. Greece has had a lot of issues with people not paying taxes.

[Lord Revan]

Personally I think the biggest problem here is that abusing these tax loopholes and similar things has been "business as usual" for so long that it's gonna take a really good leader to be able to fix that mess before getting voted out of office and not fixing it is just gonna lead the greek economy into a death spiral, basically the greek goverment is left with just bad options.

[Baffalo]

Personally I think the biggest problem here is that abusing these tax loopholes and similar things has been "business as usual" for so long that it's gonna take a really good leader to be able to fix that mess before getting voted out of office and not fixing it is just gonna lead the greek economy into a death spiral, basically the greek goverment is left with just bad options.

I'm all for regional autonomy, because people should be able to elect their own representatives. But when you have a situation as bad as Greece, there should be a system in place to put a capable leader in charge who can take command of the situation. The biggest issue would be that the local population would resent this outsider, who they believe is there to take over their country and take away their right to self-govern. Without any support, it would require a large international police force just to maintain order, and it would get very messy. Still, it's nice to wish that people would just sit down and think things through and go "Guys, we need help. Bad. I know we're gonna hate it, but we need outside help."

[Tribble]

I'm all for regional autonomy, because people should be able to elect their own representatives. But when you have a situation as bad as Greece, there should be a system in place to put a capable leader in charge who can take command of the situation. The biggest issue would be that the local population would resent this outsider, who they believe is there to take over their country and take away their right to self-govern. Without any support, it would require a large international police force just to maintain order, and it would get very messy. Still, it's nice to wish that people would just sit down and think things through and go "Guys, we need help. Bad. I know we're gonna hate it, but we need outside help."

I don't think replacing the democratically elected government with an EU appointed dictator would work out very well. Nor will sending in a large international police force to prop up said dictator. And if the EU seriously contemplated this they would be kinda going against the very principles that they supposedly stand for.