Firefighter exam tossed out by Conn. fire dept.

[ArmorPierce]

I wouldn't doubt that there are women out there who are stronger than the average man. That being said, even gym rat females tend to not be as strong average man in terms of raw lifting power with no training. Women who are stronger than an average man would be an anamoly assuming steroids is not a factor.

[Lagmonster]

I wouldn't doubt that there are women out there who are stronger than the average man. That being said, even gym rat females tend to not be as strong average man in terms of raw lifting power with no training. Women who are stronger than an average man would be an anamoly assuming steroids is not a factor.

If you follow the article in the previous page, you'd note that it wasn't always on raw strength or fitness that women were washing out of the training; it was on stamina stretched over the length of the entire training program. The women could lift and move with the required weight, but far more men could do it repeatedly, day in and out, without wearing down or becoming injured. That's a data point that would be easy to overlook if you were just comparing best times on an obstacle course.

Bearing in mind that this is from taking anecdotal data from that one specific training program in that one city.

[ArmorPierce]

I was speaking regarding average untrained man versus trained average trained woman. In terms of power the man will still probably be more stronger. I'd imagine that general endurance and stamina of average trained woman would be greater than the average untrained man.

[ArmorPierce]

I was speaking regarding average untrained man versus trained average trained woman. In terms of power the man will still probably be more stronger. I'd imagine that general endurance and stamina of average trained woman would be greater than the average untrained man.

[Adam Reynolds]

Part of the problem is simply one of ratios. While there are women that can possibly meet the standards, they will never be present in enough numbers to really be representative. The problem in firefighting in particular is that many women lack the effective body mass to be successful as it is not simply a question of strength to weight ratios as much as it is one of pure strength in absolute terms.

One point in support of women in these roles is the fact that the US Army's Sapper school has roughly 1/10 graduates as women, with a pass rate identical to men. Though physically, Sapper school is hardly as difficult as Ranger school(which no women have ever graduated from yet, though the first class is starting later this month). Out of 34 candidates 6 qualified. The group of men that qualified was 25 out of 85. That is 17 vs 29 percent. And qualifying is hardly the same thing as graduating.

If you follow the article in the previous page, you'd note that it wasn't always on raw strength or fitness that women were washing out of the training; it was on stamina stretched over the length of the entire training program. The women could lift and move with the required weight, but far more men could do it repeatedly, day in and out, without wearing down or becoming injured. That's a data point that would be easy to overlook if you were just comparing best times on an obstacle course.

I recall reading a similar point from a female US Marine combat engineer* who was making the point that few if any women would ever be successful in infantry units over the long term. She had leg injuries after several months in Afghanistan, with her muscles atrophying at a much faster rate than her male colleagues.

The problem with Sapper school as a data point is that it is only a month long and the issue generally occurs over a longer period of time. Ranger school might or might not be long enough that this becomes an issue.

* I can't actually access the article, as it is from the Marine Corps Gazette, but it is here. Not really sure where I read it initially.

[Raj Ahten]

Frankly the fact that the city in question isn't accepting female applicants at all shows they are way behind other departments. My county here in VA has had female firefighters on the job for decades and that's the norm in many jurisdictions in the DC metro area. All this talk about the "average" female is all a bunch of bullshit obfuscating that many traditionally male dominated professions are simply male dominated due to reasons of tradition. In the firefighting field females have proven they can do the work, end of story.

[Beowulf]

Wow. Way to disregard the LA Weekly story, Ahten. Female firefighters maybe able to do the work, but there's significantly fewer numbers of them that are able to meet the standards given by the fire departments. And I wouldn't doubt that many of those standards are written in blood. If the department is small, why bother going to the expense of retrofitting the stations to have female accomodations, if you're only going to be able to recruit 1 or 2 female firefighters that can hack it. That said, where did you get that the city isn't accepting female applicants?