Cobra vs Brotherhood of Nod

[biostem]

In this scenario, Cobra from the 80's G.I. Joe cartoon, (up until just before the 80's movie), and the Brotherhood of Nod from the 1st Command & Conquer game, are dropped on a "neutral Earth", which has moderate to rich deposits of Tiberium. For the purpose of this conflict, Cobra is able to harvest Tiberium, but only insofar as extracting the various resources they'd need to manufacture their own weapons, vehicles, buildings, and equipment. There is no GDI or G.I. Joe on this "neutral Earth", so the only real opposition to each side is the other. Any Cobra unit in a sealed suit can traverse Tiberium fields without negative impact, as well. Also assume that each side only has access to their standard units - no one-off's or "hero units".

Which faction do you think would come out victorious and why?

[Lord Revan]

as far as I know, it's impossible to say as we know next to nothing about the capabilities of either side, especially the Brotherhood of NOD as I don't think there's really that much material outside of C&C games themselves and those aren't that good of a source IIRC.

[Venator]

When we say "neutral", does this mean that there are no national standing armies? Or just an Earth's worth of countries that manage to conduct global diplomacy without ever needing a military arm? Or simply, they've all completely folded under the pressure of Tiberium xenoforming.

[biostem]

When we say "neutral", does this mean that there are no national standing armies? Or just an Earth's worth of countries that manage to conduct global diplomacy without ever needing a military arm? Or simply, they've all completely folded under the pressure of Tiberium xenoforming.

Nations exist, but basically only have police forces and/or limited national guard type forces - no large scale navies or other such armies. And, of course, all the nations would have their hands full trying to handle the spreading Tiberium without the benefit of GDI.

[madd0ct0r]

Brotherhood of Nod set's themselves up in opposition, seeking the further spread of tiberium.

Cobra start infiltrating the civilian governence side, promising to help against the tiberium, while diverting resources to their own factories.

[Simon_Jester]

Do we have any clue of the actual size of either organization?

Nod, starting with the First Tiberium War and for most of the time between the Second and Third Tiberium Wars, had formed armies of considerable size and firepower, and controlled respectable chunks of the globe. They may have lacked, say, a nuclear arsenal, but they had plenty of firepower. That was on top of their large numbers of fanatically loyal guerillas.

What can Cobra bring to the field to oppose this?

[Elheru Aran]

Cobra numbers vary from 'small terrorist band' to 'large well organized army' depending on whatever the latest interpretation is. There's really nothing very firm that I can find on an casual search as far as numbers go. NOD certainly has an edge there, though. Cobra may have more fancy toys.

Cobra does do a lot of internal sabotage, spying, and terrorism, as opposed to outright warfare, although they certainly have the capability to do so. I don't know if that makes much of a difference...

[Starglider]

What can Cobra bring to the field to oppose this?

A ton of superweapons;

* A site-to-site teleporter with enough capacity to teleport the Eiffel Tower.
* A howitzer sized device that can alter weather (temperature, precipitation) over fairly large areas, anywhere on the planet.
* Another machine that can create hurricanes.
* Shipping container sized field generators that can block sunlight and shut down electrical devices over continent sized areas.
* Perfect optical+radar cloaking devices sufficient to hide oil tankers.
* 50m tall giant robots (of at least low human equivalent intelligence).
* A supercarrier sized robotic sea serpent (that can actually grow when it eats metal).
* A machine that makes volcanos errupt anywhere on the planet.
* Single stage to orbit spacecraft (plus NASA style shuttles).
* Assorted mind control devices including ones that work by sound waves, by television and via aerosolisable chemical agents, that can dominate people or drive them insane with nightmares.
* Ability to clone people and dinosaurs, and genetically modify people to breath underwater, plants to grow to giant sizes etc.
* Serums that make super soldiers, serums that turn people into kids, serums that make people geriatric.
* Ability to create nearly undetectable super-strong super-durable bio-android clones of arbitrary people.

Most of those were destroyed in the series but can be easily rebuilt. Also a seemingly endless supply of humanoid robots, cannon fodder soldiers, jets, tanks, SAMs, ICBMs, elaborate underground bases, elaborate underwater bases etc. Cobra have a new plan to dominate and/or destroy the world every week and crazy as they are, most of them would have worked if they hadn't been stopped by equally nonsensical exploits by the G.I. Joes. With Tiberium they will be able to build even more crazy superweapons and expendable troops. So I have to give this one to Cobra Command.

[Venator]

Based on that list I'm actually seeing Cobra as protagonists - or at least pseudo-benevolent overlords. If they directed all their weather control, geomanipulation and genetic modification toys at preparing the world for Tiberium most governments would probably roll out the red carpet.

Considering a lot of the time Nod seemed either driven or hamstrung by a pro-Tiberium dogma, that would go some ways to undermining their popular support.

[Joun_Lord]

I could see Cobra being the "good guys". Its a bit like the Imperium from Warhammer 40k, they ain't actually good but compared to the competition they are the good guys. That really says something about the Brotherhood if freaking Cobra could be greeted as the "good guys" when Nod is on the scene.

And the world would certainly welcome Cobra ruling them if they can stop Nod, their tech can stop or slow down the spread of Tiberium, and their gene tech can help stop the effects of Tiberium on people, plants, and animals.

[Pelranius]

How far has Nod infiltrated society at large and the government in particular?

Going by Red Alert and Renegade, they've been around a very long time (though I imagine the OP means that they haven't infiltrated Cobra to any meaningful extent).

[Simon_Jester]

I'd figured Cobra would have enough superweapons to win this one, but I don't actually know the G. I. Joe setting so I wasn't sure.

Basically, I figure Cobra has the tools to win; their actual military equipment sounds comparable to Nod's, and their unconventional weapons are a lot more exotic and powerful. The big problem I foresee is that Cobra is, in its own setting, a bunch of cartoon villains, and as portrayed in the cartoon, I suspect they're rather prone to bad planning and strategy.

If Cobra can avoid this limitation when crossing swords with Nod, I'd expect them to win on firepower, although Nod's advantages of dispersion and sheer numbers may make things a bit challenging

[Napoleon the Clown]

I've wondered at what would stop meaningful numbers of people defecting to Nod. Kane has a mild case of really charismatic, and he appeals greatly to those that devalue human life. He also seems to have a grasp of tiberium tech beyond what would be expected by how long the stuff has been on Earth. And, given how many different factions he manipulated over the course of the series, he'd be able to get an acceptable result no matter what.


I'm gonna go with "Kane manages to recruit some of Cobra's best scientists and gains a huge technological lead" followed by "and then gets whatever he's after regardless of which organization survives the conflict."

And if there is no Kane leading things in this scenario, there is no Brotherhood of Nod. During times where he was away things went into disarray. They seem to need his leadership to remain at all effective.

[Simon_Jester]

How fractious is Cobra's internal loyalty? Kane could surely engineer some defections, but not necessarily enough to overcome the superweapon gap before someone manages to turn his headquarters into a volcano. And sure, he's survived having his home base blown up, but it at least seriously inconveniences him.

[Starglider]

Cobra Command has more mind control devices than they know what to do with; personal scale devices, area weapons (chemical agents and sound-based projectors) right up to global brainwashing satellites. When it comes to 'hearts and minds' I don't see how Kane can beat that with just a good line of rhetoric.

[Napoleon the Clown]

If they have so many of them and are willing to use them, why haven't they taken over the world in spite of GI Joe? Mind control the right world leaders, have GI Joe declared an enemy of the free world...

A superweapon needs to see use for it to enter the equation. If Cobra has all these cool toys but doesn't use them, it either means they aren't willing to use them on the scale it takes, or they're too stupid to use them effectively. Kane, on the other hand, is perfectly willing to kill off an entire city.

Kane plays the long game. Nod has been up against superior force many times and survived. Kane knows better than to just go all-out and show his hand immediately. GDI definitely wanted to get rid of him and Nod, yet they couldn't. Yeah, they can get rid of a lot of members. But Kane has a habit of not staying dead, and he just ends up rebuilding. Given that he appears to be ageless and maybe even effectively immortal, it becomes a question of how long Cobra is willing to keep trying to get rid of him before throwing up their hands and letting him do whatever it is he wants. Which, based off the last games he was in, doesn't involve anything Cobra would want to stop.


So yeah, Nod probably would be fucked in this scenario, long-term. But largely because Kane would get what he wants them leave them do figure things out on their own. So... Kane wins, Nod gets destroyed, Cobra gets to figure out how to deal with all this tiberium.

[FedRebel]

A superweapon needs to see use for it to enter the equation. If Cobra has all these cool toys but doesn't use them, it either means they aren't willing to use them on the scale it takes, or they're too stupid to use them effectively. Kane, on the other hand, is perfectly willing to kill off an entire city.

Cobra in the cartoons has a bad habit of tipping it's hand too early and GI Joe is at the ready to stop Cobra at the last minute. even if only through a subtle gesture, the Joe's know Cobra well enough to save the day.

On some level one could hypothesize that Cobra Commander is trying to preserve human life and is more interested in bluffing the world into submission than actually waging all out war (could explain why only a small technicolor task force is fighting Cobra instead of NATO mobilizing to crush the organization, despite Cobra having global bases and resources rivaling most nations)

Aside from that, Hasbro, God of Gods wills GI Joe to be ever victorious and bestows the miracle of plot upon the blessed rainbow army

I personally prefer the live action Retaliation iteration of Cobra Command, they successfully disarmed the world (via the ICBM self destruct myth) and demonstrated their resolve on a fully populated London with Rods from God, only to lose to The Rock...because have smelled what he's cooking? Commonsense military redundancy and Cobra would've won.

[Simon_Jester]

If they have so many of them and are willing to use them, why haven't they taken over the world in spite of GI Joe? Mind control the right world leaders, have GI Joe declared an enemy of the free world...

I imagine they've tried that several times, only for G.I. Joe to somehow go to ground, sabotage the device, and save the day...

A superweapon needs to see use for it to enter the equation. If Cobra has all these cool toys but doesn't use them, it either means they aren't willing to use them on the scale it takes, or they're too stupid to use them effectively.

Again, that's the problem with being cartoon villains in a setting with a thoroughly episodic plot. You end up having tried dozens of different schemes to take over the world, most of which could work... but you always lose to those meddling kids.

Kane plays the long game. Nod has been up against superior force many times and survived. Kane knows better than to just go all-out and show his hand immediately. GDI definitely wanted to get rid of him and Nod, yet they couldn't. Yeah, they can get rid of a lot of members. But Kane has a habit of not staying dead, and he just ends up rebuilding. Given that he appears to be ageless and maybe even effectively immortal, it becomes a question of how long Cobra is willing to keep trying to get rid of him before throwing up their hands and letting him do whatever it is he wants. Which, based off the last games he was in, doesn't involve anything Cobra would want to stop.

For that matter, Kane might very well be able to enlist in Cobra, get away with it, and ultimately subvert it to his own ends. This might be a more effective strategy for him than raising up Nod against them.

[PREDATOR490]

Without Kane the Brotherhood will fall. That is pretty much how he builds and intends it to be from the way the entire series played out. NOD exists to serve his goals, nothing more.

The motivations of what Kane was up to and the endgame until 4 decided to go batshit insane were never explained. If your sticking with the 4 story, then Kane is not human at the least and has some form of mystical shield / immortality going on. From the way it goes, Kane was trying to get off Earth and deliberately pushed the planet into the various events to get the technology to do so. Fuck knows where he went or why, or where he came from but that is EA for you.
3 even had the alien Scrin mention they knew who Kane was so... Kane could be an alien.
Alternatively, we have the biblical reference of Kane being Caine so take your pick on what he is.

If you remove Kane from the board and leave the Brotherhood alone, the only examples of what happen are 2 and 3. Generally, lots of infighting and power plays with conventional use of weapons with some of their Tiberium toys. All I can see the Brotherhood doing is conducting lots of small scale attacks without Kane. The Brotherhood only comes together into a proper army when Kane focuses them towards whatever his magical unknown goals and without him the civil wars cripple NOD from achieving anything.

Things may get interesting if you were to throw in CABAL / Legion since they are kinda the closest you get to the children of Kane being raised to control and fulfill his plans. In either case, both of these A.I would logically have access to the full arsenal of NOD technology. Although if you are limiting it to the first game then, NOD was still playing the semi-secret aspect rather than going into a full war footing.
If you are only putting NOD into the world with Tiberium based technology, it seems reasonable that without a significant military force to oppose their escalation in firepower like GDI they would start putting out the kind of toys we see later in the games provided someone can motivate them like Kane.

Without Kane: NOD falls apart and ends up with gang fights with some interesting bits of technology

With Kane: NOD becomes a massive world shattering army dedicated towards achieving his vision which noone knows except him so... who knows how they fuck you stop it. Killing him does not seem to work and since Kane is exceptionally good at keeping his cards hidden noone will know if what they are doing is actually working or just part of his ultra long game to get what he wants.

[Irbis]

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't yellow and red zones (basically, ones with high Tiberium concentration) pretty much impassable for GDI that abandoned them and retreated to blue zones?

Being able to traverse field in suit doesn't mean you can fight there - if even slightest scratch can kill you, it's not exactly favourable environment. Doesn't even power armoured GDI units in high tech armour had problems entering NOD heartlands without dying?

Cobra superweapons are cute, but GDI had them too (see Ion Cannon network for one) and it didn't exactly help. NOD also shown complete ruthlessness disabling it with terror attacks - I suspect even competent Cobra would have problems with these seeing how they fared against Joes.

Not that NOD would won easily - but I'd bet on Cobra retreating to blue zones too and basically becoming GDI 2.0. Maybe they would fare better, maybe not, but they would need more competent leadership first.

[Simon_Jester]

Yellow Zones are habitable for humans (if you stay off the tiberium fields)- people DID live there and didn't die of radiation poisoning or anything right away. It'd be like living in a country that just fought a nuclear war, I think- high risk of birth defects and cancer, and there are hot spots where you just don't go if you want to live, but you don't die.

Red Zones are basically uninhabitable... but Nod didn't try to live there either.

[Irbis]

Yellow Zones are habitable for humans (if you stay off the tiberium fields)- people DID live there and didn't die of radiation poisoning or anything right away. It'd be like living in a country that just fought a nuclear war, I think- high risk of birth defects and cancer, and there are hot spots where you just don't go if you want to live, but you don't die.

I meant in game mechanics - I remember giving up on using infantry as GDI in favour of superheavy tanks even despite it not being optimal force because even tin can armour troopers kept dying in Tiberium zones on approaches to NOD bases. These were in yellow zones at worst - and if it's accurate representation how force well used to Tiberium threat will fare, I can't see Cobra doing better. IIRC only NOD had really good protective gear outside of mutant faction so the best thing Cobra can hope for is stalemate.

[Simon_Jester]

If they're dying in the Tiberium zones, that is because they are walking across fields of radioactive Tiberium. As long as you don't actually step on and among the glowy green rocks, you're safe in the areas they're not physically standing on.

In the Yellow Zones, tiberium fields are common enough to be a serious health hazard, but not so common that you can't just go around them. Normal infantry can function in reasonable safety- as long as you don't order them to march across the glowy green rocks.

In the Red Zones all bets are off but the Red Zones are unfit for human habitation of any kind anyway.

[Purple]

It helps if you think of the three layers as a metaphor for cold war zones. Blue zones are the rich, developed first world nations. That's where the dominant western superpower is stationed. And these are the lands it defends. Yellow zones are third world poorcountrystans that no one cares about except when they dig up some valuable resource you want to steal but which aside from that are relatively stable and content with being left behind. Like those tiberium fields. And these are the lands superpowers fight over. Red zones are your ultra poor failed states like Somalia that no one even wants a part off.

[PREDATOR490]

If Tiberium is added to the mix then technically, that brings the Scrin into play. It is supposed to be their form of terraforming or something which C&C3 Established. The detonation of a suitably large deposit will kick off the invasion that happened in the game which Kane somehow knew and drove the world to.

The best GDI could do to halt the advance of Tiberium was use the Sonic weapons which still did not work. Even if NOD is defeated, the volatility of Tiberium and its pervasive spread are going to make any victory mute when the entire world becomes uninhabitable. Alternatively, a suitable engagement or detonation of a super weapon sets off the chain reaction that brings down the Scrin and causes massive destruction.