Borg vs Dominion

[Ted C]

"Let's get the civilians to the escape pods, Lieutenant!"

Ugh! A reminder of how colossally negligent the Federation can be toward civilian safety. Even knowing that they're going to fight against the Borg, they don't evacuate the civilians before they leave for battle.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Found the video on youtube. You're right, it DOES come out of warp before the tractor beam engages. But it also appears to be going really fast at sublight, so the Borg stopping that broken Excelsior is still plausible.

looks to me like they *stop*, before it cuts to the tractor beam.


welcome back, forums!

[Borgholio]

Sorry, don't see it. Looks like the Stargazer decelerates as soon as the bow comes into contact with the first part of the tractor beam. The rest of the beam does envelop the front of the ship but the bow definitely hits before that occurs.

[Prometheus Unbound]

Sorry, don't see it. Looks like the Stargazer decelerates as soon as the bow comes into contact with the first part of the tractor beam. The rest of the beam does envelop the front of the ship but the bow definitely hits before that occurs.

yes but also look in the frame before, when it engages warp. It comes out of warp and just seems to sit there, about 3-5km from the Enterprise for about half a second. THEN it cuts to the tractor beam scene.


But either way, that's the Enterprise. In my clip, that excelsior class is literally metres away from the borg cube which appears to be slightly turning into the wreckage. Then the next external clip shows no damage and no debris.

idk

I think it hit, anyway.

[Borgholio]

Well my point was simply to prove that a tractor beam could dead-stop an object moving at high speed, and if the E-D could do it then the Borg certainly could given their love for tractor beams. But in either case, we never really do see it hit so it's all conjecture at this point.

[Tribble]

How many times have we seen Borg ships rammed? The only instance I can think of is when the Borg Cube rammed the S8472 ship at warp and both of them were destroyed. However, IMO the Borg Cube's destruction was more due to the S8472 exploding than the impact itself.

Of course this is the same scene where Voyager took a "direct hit to the secondary hull" from the S8472's weapon and survived, while the very next shot tore out a big chunk of the Cube...

[Elheru Aran]

It's almost not worth it some days trying to use Trek VFX for calcs...

Cubes, unless they contain a Sphere, have been seen to be largely hollow, IIRC. It's easy enough to shoot chunks out of them because most of the mass is clustered along the outer shell. Designs do vary though, some have a 'core'.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... terior.jpg

[Tribble]

It's almost not worth it some days trying to use Trek VFX for calcs...

Cubes, unless they contain a Sphere, have been seen to be largely hollow, IIRC. It's easy enough to shoot chunks out of them because most of the mass is clustered along the outer shell. Designs do vary though, some have a 'core'.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Bo ... terior.jpg

Even so, it still doesn't make sense that Voyager could survive a direct hit like that without being destroyed. Obviously the crew must have managed to reinforce the main-character shields in time to compensate.

Are there any other instances of Borg Cubes ramming / being rammed? Off the top of my head none come to mind.

[Elheru Aran]

Me neither. I *think* there may be one in either First Contact or the DS9 pilot, but that's it (probably associating that with Worf trying it with the Defiant).

[Prometheus Unbound]

Me neither. I *think* there may be one in either First Contact or the DS9 pilot, but that's it (probably associating that with Worf trying it with the Defiant).

[Elheru Aran]

That one came off a little more as the cube itself doing the ramming rather than the other way around (if you were indicating the Excelsior anyway)...

[Prometheus Unbound]

That one came off a little more as the cube itself doing the ramming rather than the other way around (if you were indicating the Excelsior anyway)...

Well, it doesn't matter really, when you think about it. But other than that shot (where you don't actually see it hit, but there appears no damage) I think the only other things that have hit Borg cubes have been one Bioship and then photon torpedoes. In Q Who and TBOBW, photons do no damage whatsoever against the Borg - they're just absorbed (both normal and focussed warheads). In STFC you see them impact and create holes.

[Tribble]

That one came off a little more as the cube itself doing the ramming rather than the other way around (if you were indicating the Excelsior anyway)...

Well, it doesn't matter really, when you think about it. But other than that shot (where you don't actually see it hit, but there appears no damage) I think the only other things that have hit Borg cubes have been one Bioship and then photon torpedoes. In Q Who and TBOBW, photons do no damage whatsoever against the Borg - they're just absorbed (both normal and focussed warheads). In STFC you see them impact and create holes.

In STFC all the weapons fire hits the surface of the Cube, presumably because the Cube's shields had failed at some point during the battle. I imagine that while the Cube's shields were up the torpedoes simply dissipated against them like they did in Q Who and BOBW.

Considering that swarming tactics are capable of knocking out a Borg Cube's shields over time, I wonder why no one has ever tried it against Borg drones? While a Borg drone can adapt to energy weapons their shield generators would have a maximum output that might be overcome by sustained fire from multiple weapons.

[Batman]

For the same reason (whatever that may be) they don't do it in any 'other' situation. Nobody every reacts to 'damn, phasers do nothing' with 'let's try three of them at maximum power for 90 seconds straight'. They'll fiddle with the firepower settings a little but in the end they'll always go for the technobabble solution.
That's why I loved the Uhura/Khan/Spock scene in 'Into Darkness' so much. When Khan didn't drop from Uhura's first stun shot...she just kept shooting.

[Borgholio]

That's why I loved the Uhura/Khan/Spock scene in 'Into Darkness' so much. When Khan didn't drop from Uhura's first stun shot...she just kept shooting.

To add my two cents on 'Into Darkness', I think the USS Vengeance is another good example of this. The ship is definitely more advanced technologically, but they don't go into great technobabble detail about it. Khan simply states that it is bigger, faster, and has more powerful weapons. He skips the dialogue that we would normally expect from TNG / Voyager and goes straight to the end results of it.

[Mr Hugh Mann]

Frankly I would argue that the Dominion has exceptionally underwhelming tactical prospects against a concerted Borg incursion into their space. As has already been stated, between the normal transwarp coils and the transwarp hub network, the Borg can appear virtually anywhere within Dominion space at a moment's notice. Furthermore the Borg's transwarp signals allow for virtually instantaneous intra-galactic communication, in VOY “Unimatrix Zero” it was shown that Borg communications technology could support a real-time immersive simulation for drones across galactic distances, Axum himself claimed to be on a Borg vessel in the Beta quadrant.

While the Borg's other technical advantages with regard to their normal weapons and ship systems will obviously play into a long-term conflict, the prior advantages I have listed are most likely to immediately erode the Dominion's tactical advantages before a large scale conflict even begins. The first action the Borg are likely to carry out is to acquire “samples” of Dominion technology and personnel, between transwarp drive and signaling the Borg should be able to quickly acquire raw data so that the hive mind can begin working out the assimilation logistics. It is even possible that the Dominion as a whole might be unaware of the cause of several missing patrol ships or installations. At first this latter proposition might seem far-fetched given the idea that the Borg have all the stealthiness of a wrecking ball going through the Chrysler building at high noon, however we must recall that the Borg absconded with a whole series of Federation and Romulan installations along the Neutral Zone without either of those powers being able to determine much beyond a residual electromagnetic fingerprint. This success might simply be due to the relative speed advantage enjoyed by Borg vessels, but in VOY “Collective” it was shown that the Borg can use dispersal fields to render themselves undetectable to the scanning technology used aboard the Delta Flyer, whether this technique would be comparably effective against the Dominion's scanning technology is unknown. At best the Dominion might have access to Federation accounts of Borg encounters, how the Vorta or the Founders will act on this possible intelligence source is also unknown.

What I expect will occur in the longer term is that the Dominion may enjoy some mild success with suicide tactics involving bugships in sufficient numbers, but if we see an invasion on the scale described by Arturis during the assimilation of Species 116 I hold very little hope for the continued existence of the Dominion. While the Dominion is very efficient at scaling up production of the both vessels and soldiers, the sustainable forces that they can field is strictly capped by how efficiently they can produce and distribute Ketracel-White. Furthermore it appears that Ketracel White requires a heavy industrial process to synthesize versus simple replication, one might conjecture that the reason for this is simply to prevent any Jem' Hadar interested in rebellion from being able to self-supply with ease. As it stands though, White production seems to be the obvious Achille's Heel in the Dominion's defense strategy, and indeed several Dominion defensive maneuvers in the Alpha Quadrant were prioritized around the protection of production facilities. As such the Borg might be able to use their superior speed to cripple the amount of sustained resistance early by selective targeting of White facilities revealed in the earlier sampling process, it is possible that the Borg might also be able to analyze certain areas for precursor materials to the White in order to assess the likelihood of Dominion installations producing this key component in that area of space, such as was carried out in DS9 “Statistical Probabilities”.

It should be noted that the Borg also have other options for large scale assimilation if the Dominion's expected resistance is fairly high, the Borg might attempt to use the “surreptitious” strategy elaborated on by the Queen in VOY “Dark Frontier” and resort to using biogenic charges laced with nanoprobe viruses against large planetary populations in order to create a kind of cybernetic plague. One can imagine the kind of “scorched earth” policy the Dominion would have to pursue in order to prevent the proliferation of the virus along the trade routes within their space, indeed such a thing could likely trigger destabilizing events such as insurrections in response to the brutal tactics, a sort of “damned if you do and damned if you don't” scenario. A strategy like this has a considerably longer time horizon as its trade-off though it does have great potential to undercut Dominion resources with limited use of force.

Given the prior posts discussing ramming tactics I would like to add that apparently a single tractor beam projected by a Sphere was capable of seizing at least 2 vessels simultaneously as was demonstrated in VOY “Child's Play”, in particular a Brunali transport vessel and Voyager itself.

[Prometheus Unbound]

For the same reason (whatever that may be) they don't do it in any 'other' situation. Nobody every reacts to 'damn, phasers do nothing' with 'let's try three of them at maximum power for 90 seconds straight'. They'll fiddle with the firepower settings a little but in the end they'll always go for the technobabble solution.

The weird thing is, even in TBOBW they actually did that to the power nodes. Data fires and it does nothing. He nods at Worf and they both adjust their phasers to full power, both fire and it blows it up.

Tasha and Data (riker?) also did it with the Echo Papa 607 drone in Arsenal of Freedom. One phaser didn't kill the 2nd drone so they both fired and it did.

Picard and Riker both did it to Remick as well I think in Conspiracy - one didn't so they both did on max and vapourised him.


So it *can* be done, and has. They just... don't. Because derp.

[Prometheus Unbound]

That's why I loved the Uhura/Khan/Spock scene in 'Into Darkness' so much. When Khan didn't drop from Uhura's first stun shot...she just kept shooting.

To add my two cents on 'Into Darkness', I think the USS Vengeance is another good example of this. The ship is definitely more advanced technologically, but they don't go into great technobabble detail about it. Khan simply states that it is bigger, faster, and has more powerful weapons. He skips the dialogue that we would normally expect from TNG / Voyager and goes straight to the end results of it.

"Dreadnought Class, two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry, modified for minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat."

Eloquent.


Also happened with Marcus, actually.

"Carol, we're at warp, he can't catch us."

"Yes he can, he has advanced warp capabilities"


Or something like that. Again, no babble, just a "yup."

[Baffalo]

Trek '09 and Into Darkness did what TOS often did very well and focused more on the action than on the technobabble, which is a huge advantage. Even while Into Darkness had a strange plot and '09 left you a little baffled and confused, it's easy to slip into the action and just focus on watching the actions play out, rather than scratch your head going "They're doing the what now to the whats it to the who now?"

Sure, some of it seems ridiculous on the surface (like a ship that big for only one man) but that doesn't exactly mean it's impossible to keep the plot going along.

[Korgeta]

I always got the impression borg presence in gamma quadrent was about none existant was down to that the founders actually kept themselves a mystery till recently, if the borg had solid facts they would had gone after them.

It takes time to have a domain of space, by the time they established a powerbase in the delta quadrant they may have received the 'distress' signal the borg sent from the enterprise timeline, also the alpha quadrant does have a versatile structure of several powerful civilizations, for all we know the borg may have been observing to see if anyone in the alpha quadrant has developed anything unique after a set time period. Then you have 7 of 9 parents who hid right under the borg's nose for a long time. So there was more likely a priority on the alpha quadrant as a study before assimilation. Wasn't the parasite control of Starfleet admirals in TNG originally a borg plot?

In comparison the dominion is the sole major power and perhaps had nothing innovative to offer, they might have been watched as much to see how the aqlpha quadrant and its powers adapt to the dominion if it means getting new results.

Species 8472 was a big factor, they destroyed planets hundreds of cubes etc and yet after the war the borg sent a 100 cubes to assimilate the race that devised slip stream technology. So without doubt the borg can destroy the dominion, they can put up a good fight at first but whether due to borg weapons or by assimilating its tech, the Borg will destroy any enemy ships (being aware of ramming attacks) But I think to the borg, the dominion just didn't offer anything new, the borg seek perfection more then they do conquest.

I would say its down to well shrouded secrecy of the founders plus a war with 8472 that kept the two separate as well as the minor facts mentioned. If the borg knew the founders actually existed they would had gone to them in a heartbeat.

[Prometheus Unbound]

The dominion is either two or ten thousand years old (Depending on which quote you use). 8472 appeared at the end of the dominion war. They had no relation to each other.

I guess the Borg just went counter clockwise in the galaxy.

[Mr Hugh Mann]

I always got the impression borg presence in gamma quadrent was about none existant was down to that the founders actually kept themselves a mystery till recently, if the borg had solid facts they would had gone after them.

While it goes against the initial assumption as put forth in the OP, I feel it should be noted that although we have no in-series evidence of prior conflict between the Borg and the Dominion, we do have evidence of a Borg presence in the Gamma Quadrant sufficient enough to entail the construction and maintenance of one Transwarp Hub, as was shown by 7 of 9's map in “VOY: Endgame”.

[Borgholio]

I find it unlikely that the Borg don't know about the dominion. Either they are not worth assimilating on the account of seeming too inferior (like the Kazon), or they did enough damage to the Borg during the last assimilation attempt to make the Borg seek out easier targets.

[Prometheus Unbound]

I find it unlikely that the Borg don't know about the dominion. Either they are not worth assimilating on the account of seeming too inferior (like the Kazon), or they did enough damage to the Borg during the last assimilation attempt to make the Borg seek out easier targets.

I can't believe the Borg think them unworthy. They have some very nice weapons and bio tech and a lot of industry.

Maybe they do like they do with the Federation - blindly sending 1 cube at a time to the Founder's Homeworld heh. I can't see that going well for the Borg.

[WATCH-MAN]

It was never shown that the Borg are interested in political bodies - like the United Federation of Planets or the Dominion.

The Borg's goal was to attain perfection by adding the biological and technological distinctiveness of the species they assimilated to their own. A species which biological and technological distinctiveness is unremarkable is unworthy of assimilation as the assimilation of such a species would only detract from what the Borg perceive as perfection.

The Borg did not want to assimilate the whole United Federation of Planets; they only wanted to assimilate humans.

Insofar it is possible that they know of the Dominion but regard it as irrelevant - as it is only a political body with which the Borg do not interact.

The question is if there are races in the Dominion from which the Borg know and regard them as worthy of assimilation and the effort they have to put into an assimilation.

It is easily imaginable that they do not have any interests in assimilating the cloned Jem'Hadar or Vorta.

And it is easily imaginable that the Dominion - which has no problems with genocide - has wiped out all species in their territory that were distinctive enough - as they may not have fit into the Dominion.