Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Lord Revan]

one possiblity is that the "first order" was an Imperial Youth Organization pre-ROTJ, full something like the First Order of the Empire, another possiblity is that they consider themselves to be the "true heirs" of the ancient Sith, hell it could even be both.

Though I seem to have heard that guy with the cross-guard light saber isn't a true Sith but a Sith fanboy of sorts or has that been disproven.

[Guardsman Bass]

I just watched it again.

Eh. It's not bad looking, but . . . it just feels like the same old shit. Even Han at the end - same kind of jacket, same haircut, still flying the Falcon with Chewie after decades.

To be honest, I'm actually more interested in the Star Wars films that will come after this one, once they get the giant fan-soothing pander-fest out of the way. This will one will probably be entertaining and fast-paced whether or not the plot makes any sense, like the Star Trek films.

[Adam Reynolds]

Eh. It's not bad looking, but . . . it just feels like the same old shit. Even Han at the end - same kind of jacket, same haircut, still flying the Falcon with Chewie after decades.

Who says they have had the Falcon the whole time? The fact that they said "we're home" and that they had their weapons raised implies they weren't in possession of it for a long period of time(I hadn't actually noticed this at first). This leads me to assume that Rey and Finn(possibly also Poe) steal the ship. Now if she were his daughter, it would be odd that she stole it.
Spoiler

There appears to be speculation that she was with Han on the desert planet and somehow she and the Falcon ended up there with Han being forced to leave for some reason. There was further rumors that both she and Kylo Ren trained with Luke at a young age before something happened to their training camp. How those two elements possibly fit together I have no idea.

To be honest, I'm actually more interested in the Star Wars films that will come after this one, once they get the giant fan-soothing pander-fest out of the way. This will one will probably be entertaining and fast-paced whether or not the plot makes any sense, like the Star Trek films.

In all honesty that was also how ANH was relative to ESB. It was simply a fun adventure movie that was followed up by the more serious and dramatic film with a more complex plot. ANH was very linear as a straight MacGuffin plot.

Another random bit I found while perusing the internet: Spoiler

Another interesting point is that it is apparently Rose(played by Lupita Nyong’o) who hands Leia Luke's/Anakin's lightsaber rather than Kira/Rey as I was assuming. If you look closely enough while watching it in slow motion you see the outline of a face that definitely isn't human. And when we see Luke touching R2, I presume the synthetic skin over his hand has been burnt away. What would have caused this?

For a final interesting bit, someone has tested the effectiveness of the tri-blade lightsaber. It actually appears superior to a conventional lightsaber:

He did a second test that produced similar lack of potential injury with PVC pipe to simulate the massless blade.

[Patroklos]

I still think it needs to be a single piece without the gaps between the hilt and blade to be effective. He just hand waves that away and that's BS. Thats without getting into not cutting yourself, I'd we never see his opponent force his place back towards him outside of his control which was common in the prequels.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

My current optimistic assumption on that lightsabre is that it's made of cortosis, so if the blade of an opponent's lightsabre skitters down to the bottom, it'll short out. I know that's not going to be the case, but it would explain why it's like that if it was.

[Iroscato]

It's a handguard, and also exhaust vents. That's it. That's all. We're already talking about a weapon that would be wildly impractical in the real world, so a small aesthetical change surely doesn't matter.

[Zixinus]

As someone who has a little longsword wielding-experience and read about it, you don't touch the cross-guard and (unless you are doing something terribly wrong) the crossguard doesn't touch you. If you can master a blade that burns off anything it comes to contact with, the crossguards aren't much a challenge.

The only time you do touch it is to curl your forefinger of the leading hand around the crossguard to have a grip that aids in trusting. That may be why there is a metal base around the crossguard-blades, to allow such a grip and prevent accidental damage if the grip slips forward. My assumption is that also that since the main blade has a surrounding "shroud" for the emitter, the side-blades also have and the metal bit conceals that. It being cortosis or phrik or other lightsaber-resistant material may be true and prudent but does not need to be strictly true. Even if chopping at those bits may disable the side-blades, it still presents you with an advantage.

Having a crossguard is beneficial not just for occasional attacks on the hand but to deliberately defend with it. You can receive attacks with it that you otherwise couldn't. An opponent not used to it can be surprised. Furthermore, the crossguards can be used offensively as well, historical masters actually sometimes advise sharpening the ends of crossguards.

It makes sense why most Jedi wouldn't have bothered: it limits various grip styles (the oh-so-cool backhand grip which actually is only useful for in-fighting) and is only give an advantage for dueling. Maybe adding crossguard complicates the weapon so much that only few bothered with it. During the prequels the Jedi have not fought Sith (their main and pretty much only lightsaber-wielding opponent) for over a thousand years and almost nobody but a handful of dedicated duelists would have gained any such use. I imagine the Jedi would have seen it as almost-cheating, having a different and arguably better lightsaber than their opponent, and would have preferred to beat them trough mastery.

I imagine that the decision to add crossguards is also partly inspired by the HEMA-movement and longsword-wielding that has developed and become fashionable recently. While not exclusive, the most popular weapon is the longsword due to complete manuals and widespread interpretation of those manuals. I'm still waiting for the shield-like handheld shields to appear.

Maul's lightsaber staff is a far more radical difference from the standard lightsaber design and the usefulness of that is more arguable (it handles like a quarterstaff yet cannot be fully used as one because you can only grip it in the center). This is a minor change compared to some of the other stuff, especially compared to lightwhips.

Opinion of someone knowledgeable on the subject:

aIt's a handguard, and also exhaust vents. That's it. That's all. We're already talking about a weapon that would wildly impractical in the real world, so a small aesthetical change surely doesn't matter.

A handguard is very much practical and more than just an aesthetical difference (although whether the film will do that is still yet to be seen). There is a reason they are found extensively on real-life swords (and not just European swords but on Chinese and Indian, although to a lesser extent).

The "exhaust vent" makes no sense. No other lightsaber seems to need one, no exhaust vent is mentioned anywhere in any of the old lore (at best, areas that were passive radiators). Why would this one have one? Because it's "crudely built"?

[jwl]

Maul's lightsaber staff is a far more radical difference from the standard lightsaber design and the usefulness of that is more arguable (it handles like a quarterstaff yet cannot be fully used as one because you can only grip it in the center).

Didn't they say in one of the bane books that double-ended lightsabers are there to confuse the opponent, because they are used to fighting single-bladed ones and struggle to adapt, even though it intrinsically puts you at a disadvantage?

story-telling needs to have some sort of finality, some sort of closure. Not all stories can be resolved completely, but the main story arc and plotlines needs to be given a proper resolution. I just find it bad storytelling if you reveal at the end credits that the bad guys isn't really dead. It makes the whole SW films feel like some sort of horrible horror movie where the villains never dies.

The idea that you can never defeat evil seems to undermine a core message of what Star Wars is about. To me, Star Wars represented classic fairy tale, where the heroes can live happily ever after as opposed to a lifetime of endless suffering because evil will never be defeated ( for the sake of milking the cash cow). It just make the whole franchise overly tragic.

How do you do a sequel then?

[Zixinus]

Didn't they say in one of the bane books that double-ended lightsabers are there to confuse the opponent, because they are used to fighting single-bladed ones and struggle to adapt, even though it intrinsically puts you at a disadvantage?

That is possible, but I don't know. I don't think there is a real weapon that wold handle like a saberstaff (it actually is more of a double-bladed sword as discussed here. With a quarterstaff you can change where you hold the staff. Against a sword you can hold the end of the staff and thus possibly have a reach advantage against a sword if the quarterstaff is longer that way.

It may have an advantage in that with a saberstaff if one blade is blocked you can immediately attack with the other. A longer lever can also be useful in certain situations.

Thats without getting into not cutting yourself, I'd we never see his opponent force his place back towards him outside of his control which was common in the prequels.

Holding a longsword you have the crossguards aligned to your hand, pointing towards the elbow. The only time a crossguard would be a hazard to the user if you have those ridicolous shoving matches where the two fighters are just pushing each other's blade towards the other. I imagine that then the stronger wielder would push a crossguard-wielder's crossguard into their chest.

Actually those pushing matches are nothing but cinematic thing (TvTropes would call it a trope, there is probably a page). In a real fight two blades do frequently contact each other, this is called a bind. But you don't start pushing, in fact you can do a good deal depending on how strong the opponent's attack is and at what angle. You can counter-attack, you can angle your blade into a thrust, you can wind your blade, etc. How to handle different binds is actually extensively dealt within in the historical Liechtenaur manuals (at least in Sigmund Ringeck's).

Some examples:


So that wouldn't happen. Losing your grip on your weapon means you lost and will likely be killed instantly, crossguard or no. If you can push your opponent's hands in, you can push their main blade towards themselves already. I have found little about longsword-wielders being hurt by their own crossguard.

[ray245]

How do you do a sequel then?

Make it something else other than having our heroes fight another version of Empire and Sith lords? It has to be something new and different from what we have seen before. An attempt to recreate the OT might make the first viewing enjoyable for the fans, but overtime, it can become boring because it offers nothing really new.

A well-directed, nostalgia-filled movie might please us when we watch it for the first time, but that doesn't give it any lasting impression in our minds.

[Adam Reynolds]

Why I am not suprised that lightsaber technical commentary took over the thread? I wish I knew more about the subject to be able to comment with more knowlege.

I still think it needs to be a single piece without the gaps between the hilt and blade to be effective. He just hand waves that away and that's BS. Thats without getting into not cutting yourself, I'd we never see his opponent force his place back towards him outside of his control which was common in the prequels.

Personally I think it is an inferior weapon, created by one who is only partially knowledgeable about the proper techniques to become a Jedi or Sith. The side blades are simply a venting system as he otherwise couldn't figure out how to make the beam stable. If you watched the scene from the first trailer in slow motion, the primary beam only stabalized once the two smaller beams energized. Against a proper Jedi he would likely lose rather badly, only sustained by raw power in the Dark Side. As for the reach advantage he would presumably have, this didn't seem to hurt Yoda that much in his duels.

Make it something else other than having our heroes fight another version of Empire and Sith lords? It has to be something new and different from what we have seen before. An attempt to recreate the OT might make the first viewing enjoyable for the fans, but overtime, it can become boring because it offers nothing really new.

A well-directed, nostalgia-filled movie might please us when we watch it for the first time, but that doesn't give it any lasting impression in our minds.

What enemy could you possibly come up with that would be as good? Jedi vs Sith is central to Star Wars. Without that you simply have battles in space, something done just as well by numerous SF settings.

When the EU tried that something else, it was the Yuzhan Vong or The Crystal Star. I would much rather have a rehash of Jedi vs Sith done well than any of the alternative crap.

[Prannon]

Ray, I want to draw your attention to the fact that you're making a very wide judgment against this film when you haven't actually seen it yet. There's only so much that we can speculate on when we've only seen two trailers. Trailers only exist to get a target audience excited about seeing a film. We really shouldn't be looking at these trailers and making such grand judgments like "This film is going to suck!" You should only really decide that a film sucks after you've seen it yourself.

Now for my own opinion, having tracked this thread for a while. I remember from my younger years hearing rumors that Star Wars was originally supposed to be a 9 part story, but that George left it at 6 films because reasons. I don't think that it's wise to have this next trilogy of films depart completely from the older stories (as Ray would have), since there's going to be a subconscious expectation (on the part of the audience and society as a whole) that this next trilogy will somehow "conclude" the story. I put that in quotations, because nobody really wants the Star Wars universe to be concluded, really. Someone earlier mentioned that the themes from the OT haven't actually been completely closed yet. Luke's story isn't necessarily over yet. The Skywalker story isn't necessarily over yet. Let the story go on! It's fun! But as far as the current stories and themes, let them have a conclusion, and perhaps a hopeful new beginning or something.

This trailer is a great deal more artistic and meaningful than the previous one. It exposes you to the artistic ideas in the film and also exposes you to the themes of the film. We're trying to bridge the old with the new. If anything, I think that based on this latest trailer that we can say that cinematic Star Wars is definitely a Skywalker story, and that this film is going to focus on continuing that story. That is what we really need to focus our attentions on as we go into this new film.

[ray245]

What enemy could you possibly come up with that would be as good? Jedi vs Sith is central to Star Wars. Without that you simply have battles in space, something done just as well by numerous SF settings.

When the EU tried that something else, it was the Yuzhan Vong or The Crystal Star. I would much rather have a rehash of Jedi vs Sith done well than any of the alternative crap.

What about one of the most highly praised story in the EU? The story of Thrawn against Luke and co.? The fact that Thrawn is a fan favourite despite not having any force abilities means people are far more willingly to accept something different. Let's not forget the whole point of creating the Yuzhan Vong was because the EU writers themselves were figuring out that fans were too tired of having Luke fight yet another darksider.

I want to see creativity in story-telling, giving us fans something we didn't expect. It's what makes following a franchise fun for me.

Ray, I want to draw your attention to the fact that you're making a very wide judgment against this film when you haven't actually seen it yet. There's only so much that we can speculate on when we've only seen two trailers. Trailers only exist to get a target audience excited about seeing a film. We really shouldn't be looking at these trailers and making such grand judgments like "This film is going to suck!" You should only really decide that a film sucks after you've seen it yourself.

The point is I've never said the film is going to suck. I'm saying the approaches taken by the team, based on what I've seen does not interest me. I'm mostly talking about the broadest possible stroke, such as using a new version of the Imperials and darksiders as the enemy.

The film could be individually well-executed as a story on its own, but I dislike the much wider implication such a narrative would have on the saga as a whole.

Now for my own opinion, having tracked this thread for a while. I remember from my younger years hearing rumors that Star Wars was originally supposed to be a 9 part story, but that George left it at 6 films because reasons. I don't think that it's wise to have this next trilogy of films depart completely from the older stories (as Ray would have), since there's going to be a subconscious expectation (on the part of the audience and society as a whole) that this next trilogy will somehow "conclude" the story. I put that in quotations, because nobody really wants the Star Wars universe to be concluded, really. Someone earlier mentioned that the themes from the OT haven't actually been completely closed yet. Luke's story isn't necessarily over yet. The Skywalker story isn't necessarily over yet. Let the story go on! It's fun! But as far as the current stories and themes, let them have a conclusion, and perhaps a hopeful new beginning or something.

The point with every ending is it doesn't need to resolve every major plot arc, as long as it could suggest the ending of the story has been reached. It's like a fairy tale where we do not need to hear what happened to every single character in the books, as long as the main characters lived happily ever after. To me, Star Wars (the OT anyway) has been using a fairytale-like approach to storytelling, being able to tell us that the heroes did live happily ever after by the end of the third movie. ( Or at the very least, ensure the same kind of enemy is defeated for good)

It's like asking for a new Band of Brother series where the same bunch of characters have to fight a bunch of neo-nazis. ( Even if BoB is based on actual events.) I think characters should have the chance to rest in peace after a long life of struggle.

This trailer is a great deal more artistic and meaningful than the previous one. It exposes you to the artistic ideas in the film and also exposes you to the themes of the film. We're trying to bridge the old with the new. If anything, I think that based on this latest trailer that we can say that cinematic Star Wars is definitely a Skywalker story, and that this film is going to focus on continuing that story. That is what we really need to focus our attentions on as we go into this new film.

My biggest grip with the whole production so far ( especially with visual designs) is that the team aren't daring to be creative in a creative medium. I think the biggest difference between making a fanfilm and making a movie is there needs to be some element of boldness and creativity that is often not seen in fan production or fan work. The benefit of holding on to official rights is that you are in a position to make something new for the franchise, not merely dress up the old stuff in slightly different clothes.

I want Abrams and his team to act less like a fan and more like filmmakers when they are doing a professional work. You can show your labour of love of being a fan while being creatively bold.

[Adam Reynolds]

What about one of the most highly praised story in the EU? The story of Thrawn against Luke and co.? The fact that Thrawn is a fan favourite despite not having any force abilities means people are far more willingly to accept something different.

People have almost as much nostalgia for those books as they do for the OT. They have their own serious problems that the average fan of the movies would find rather cheap. Number one is that the primary antagonist of the third book wasn't Thrawn, it was the insane clone of Jorus C'Baoth with an extra u in his name. Not to mention Luuke Skywalker the clone. I would rather see a new Sith than an insane Jedi clone as an antagonist. Thrawn on his own wasn't a direct threat to the characters that required something else, hence C'Baoth. And for these movies, hence Kylo Ren.

What made Thrawn effective was that Timothy Zahn is very good at writing as if he were playing chess, not anything special about the character. Though it was interesting to see an Imperial officer that was both competent and not pointlessly evil. We could still see that. The fact that we see a destroyed SSD, implies the Empire isn't as powerful as it once was, this should tell us that whatever is left of the Empire would have to be smarter, hence a Thrawn like character. Spoiler

Gwendoline Christie plays an Imperial officer named Captain Phasma(supposedly the chrome trooper) that apparently serves Kylo Ren and isn't threatened by him in the same fashion as Vader's underlings. It might be a more equal relationship, giving her a role closer to Thrawn. Though I have no idea if she will be as clever, I doubt it.

Let's not forget the whole point of creating the Yuzhan Vong was because the EU writers themselves were figuring out that fans were too tired of having Luke fight yet another darksider.

And it was awful. The fact that it was different didn't make it better. The problem of the post-ROTJ EU was that they were trying to consistently top the films. Having only the sequel trilogy won't have that problem. Especially if they go a completely different direction with the state of the galaxy. And the indication is that the spin off films seem to all be smaller affairs, barely mentioning the main film characters, which is what the EU should have been.

I want to see creativity in story-telling, giving us fans something we didn't expect. It's what makes following a franchise fun for me.

That is still possible with generally similar antagonists. We already are seeing something completely new, a defecting stormtrooper.

If you are wanting a smaller story, wait for Rouge One next year. That is apparently completely different: Spoiler

possibly taking place in the early days of the Rebel Alliance and being about the theft of the Death Star plans. I wonder if it might have a tie in to Rebels?

[ray245]

People have almost as much nostalgia for those books as they do for the OT. They have their own serious problems that the average fan of the movies would find rather cheap. Number one is that the primary antagonist of the third book wasn't Thrawn, it was the insane clone of Jorus C'Baoth with an extra u in his name. Not to mention Luuke Skywalker the clone. I would rather see a new Sith than an insane Jedi clone as an antagonist. Thrawn on his own wasn't a direct threat to the characters that required something else, hence C'Baoth. And for these movies, hence Kylo Ren.

What made Thrawn effective was that Timothy Zahn is very good at writing as if he were playing chess, not anything special about the character. Though it was interesting to see an Imperial officer that was both competent and not pointlessly evil. We could still see that. The fact that we see a destroyed SSD, implies the Empire isn't as powerful as it once was, this should tell us that whatever is left of the Empire would have to be smarter, hence a Thrawn like character. [/spoiler]

The point is fans are still willingly to embrace something new if it is good. Being a little bit more creative than we have seen so far would be better for the franchise, and ensure the franchise does not stalemate creatively.
Spoiler

Gwendoline Christie plays an Imperial officer named Captain Phasma(supposedly the chrome trooper) that apparently serves Kylo Ren and isn't threatened by him in the same fashion as Vader's underlings. It might be a more equal relationship, giving her a role closer to Thrawn. Though I have no idea if she will be as clever, I doubt it.

Although having the new Dark Sider around feels like they don't know ( or do not wish) to escape the paradigm of conflict between the Sith and the Jedi.

And it was awful. The fact that it was different didn't make it better. The problem of the post-ROTJ EU was that they were trying to consistently top the films. Having only the sequel trilogy won't have that problem. Especially if they go a completely different direction with the state of the galaxy. And the indication is that the spin off films seem to all be smaller affairs, barely mentioning the main film characters, which is what the EU should have been.

My beef with what I have seen and heard so far is that they doesn't seem to be going in a different direction. We have the Empire and dark siders around for the heroes to fight. We already had that kind of story before. I was hoping for something more different.

That is still possible with generally similar antagonists. We already are seeing something completely new, a defecting stormtrooper.

Those are very minor change in the scheme of things. The new Empire as a whole are still the bad guys flying TIE, and being led by a guy with a red lightsaber.

If you are wanting a smaller story, wait for Rouge One next year. That is apparently completely different: Spoiler

possibly taking place in the early days of the Rebel Alliance and being about the theft of the Death Star plans. I wonder if it might have a tie in to Rebels?

What if I want a much larger story that is different from the OT and the PT?


I've gave up on the EU because too many writers simply cannot resist trying to retell the OT in most post-ROTJ stories. It's always the same story with some minor change. It seems like JJ is making the exact same mistake in my opinion as well. I'm paying to see someone to be creative than your average fan. In terms of story-telling and art design. Nostalgia might please the generation of fans who grew up with the OT, but that alone isn't enough to make a film that is timeless.

[Adam Reynolds]

The point is fans are still willingly to embrace something new if it is good. Being a little bit more creative than we have seen so far would be better for the franchise, and ensure the franchise does not stalemate creatively.

At that point there had been nothing Star Wars for 19 years, fans would have accepted most story concepts. And Zahn is an excellent writer who pulled it off reasonably well for the time. And now, most people accept the ideas because they are popular, regardless of actual quality.

Although having the new Dark Sider around feels like they don't know ( or do not wish) to escape the paradigm of conflict between the Sith and the Jedi.

And Heir to the Empire had effectively the same idea with C'Baoth. There might not have been a red lightsaber, but for all intents and purposes he was a Sith Lord in all but name. Would you prefer if Kylo Ren isn't refereed to as a Sith, even though he effectively is.

My beef with what I have seen and heard so far is that they doesn't seem to be going in a different direction. We have the Empire and dark siders around for the heroes to fight. We already had that kind of story before. I was hoping for something more different.

The fact that we have the trappings of the Empire doesn't mean that it is still more powerful than the Rebel Alliance. Israel used German rifles and Czech versions of German fighters in 1948, it doesn't mean they were fighting for the Reich. With the amount of hardware that was produced by the Empire, it shouldn't be a surprise that it is still used. The fact that we see a Super Star Destroyer embeedded into a planet and that the first shot we see is of a star destroyer half buried in sand, implies that the Empire as a whole has fallen.

Those are very minor change in the scheme of things. The new Empire as a whole are still the bad guys flying TIE, and being led by a guy with a red lightsaber.

Having bad guys with red lightsabers is iconic to Star Wars. If they had left this out, you would have had people claim that it wasn't really Star Wars. And having a stormtrooper as a main character is a serious change. Would you have imagined this in the original films?

What if I want a much larger story that is different from the OT and the PT?


I've gave up on the EU because too many writers simply cannot resist trying to retell the OT in most post-ROTJ stories. It's always the same story with some minor change. It seems like JJ is making the exact same mistake in my opinion as well. I'm paying to see someone to be creative than your average fan. In terms of story-telling and art design. Nostalgia might please the generation of fans who grew up with the OT, but that alone isn't enough to make a film that is timeless.

Nothing will ever be timeless in the same sense as the originals because there is too much to compete with for audience attention. When Star Wars came out in 1977 it was unique as a proper summer blockbuster. Now there are a half dozen attempts at this every year. In 2015 there is a new Jurassic Park movie, a new Terminator movie, The Avengers 2, Fast 7 and a new Mission Impossible movie all competing with Star Wars. Nothing will every be iconic like the originals with that level of competition, except among fans. And there will be the mix of those who are disappointed it wasn't exactly the same as the originals in conflict with those like you who are bothered by the fact that it is too similar.

The problem with the EU was that it was always treated as a cash cow without much accounting for quality(something that doesn't appear to have changed with the new canon policy if some of the other members reviews are indicative). These new movies are made by people that actually seem to care about the franchise.

Final question: Are you going to still see it on opening day?

[RogueIce]

What about one of the most highly praised story in the EU? The story of Thrawn against Luke and co.? The fact that Thrawn is a fan favourite despite not having any force abilities means people are far more willingly to accept something different. Let's not forget the whole point of creating the Yuzhan Vong was because the EU writers themselves were figuring out that fans were too tired of having Luke fight yet another darksider.

I want to see creativity in story-telling, giving us fans something we didn't expect. It's what makes following a franchise fun for me. The point is I've never said the film is going to suck. I'm saying the approaches taken by the team, based on what I've seen does not interest me. I'm mostly talking about the broadest possible stroke, such as using a new version of the Imperials and darksiders as the enemy.

You seem to be forgetting that C'boath was a major villain in that story. And your last sentence contradicts your opening, because Thrawn and C'boath were exactly "a new version of the Imperials and darksiders as the enemy".

In any event, what is it that sets Star Wars apart, and gives it the brand it is? I would say lightsaber duels, and one Space Wizard fighting another Space Wizard. It's in every one of the movies thus far, and really without it Star Wars would just be another sci-fi setting. The battle between "Good Jedi" and "Bad Jedi" is what sets it apart, IMO.

So for any movie that's going to be Star Wars: Episode [#] this is what I will expect to see, a lightsaber duel. Somewhere, somehow, it shall happen. The standalone movies can be different, and from what I've seen they apparently will be. But for the full on Episodes? Space Wizard vs Space Wizard with Laser Swords, for sure.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would say that Star Wars is defined by four things:

Idealism- its not a particularly dark franchise, or at least the films aren't.

A grand spectacle/epic scale. The only mainstream franchise that gets bigger in scope is Doctor Who, and they're held back by their attachment to modern England and the fact that its on television.

The Force. The light and dark sides opposing each other, and that element of mysticism.

The lack of a clear attachment to the real world. A lot of science fiction is set in the present or the future. Star Wars, however, is set "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away" and Earth is never so much as mentioned.

[Zixinus]

Personally I think it is an inferior weapon, created by one who is only partially knowledgeable about the proper techniques to become a Jedi or Sith.

Why? It is rougher looking in execution (it's confirmed that the director wanted it to look like that) but it looks like a lightsaber.

. The side blades are simply a venting system as he otherwise couldn't figure out how to make the beam stable.

Where does everybody get this silly "venting" idea? No lightsaber ever needed venting, at best there is a radiator-section on training blades in the Jedi Path book. Luke's lightsaber didn't need venting despite being made on his own by a few notes and stuff he found in Kenobi's shack. This guy is a leader of an army that has new armor, getting good parts clearly wouldn't be an issue.

If it were really needed venting, it wouldn't be lightsaber blades, it would be hot gas like from a fire.
How on Earth would adding two side-blades aid in venting in any way? It would make heat-issues WORSE, not better.

If you watched the scene from the first trailer in slow motion, the primary beam only stabalized once the two smaller beams energized.

So what? For all we know that was done purely out of cinematic effect. It could be also merely a side-effect of how the side-emitters work.

Against a proper Jedi he would likely lose rather badly, only sustained by raw power in the Dark Side.

You are making too many assumption based just on the lightsaber being "rougher" looking. We do not know about the actual skill level about the guy, we will only know once we see him fighting. For all we know, he may be well-trained (he could be well-trained with fighting with regular swords and managed to adapt that) and he choose to add crossguards deliberately to gain advantage against classically trained Jedi. He may not even be a Force-user.

As for the reach advantage he would presumably have, this didn't seem to hurt Yoda that much in his duels.

That's not how fighting works and what are you talking about? I don't see the crossguard-lightsaber being longer, though I haven't measured it.

Yoda could directly compensate for his shorter reach by his size. He was smaller (thus a smaller target) and his arms were much closer to the ground.
This may sound strange, but that's a big advantage. It's hard to target legs and especially feet because you need to get in closer than if you were to target hands or the torso. This is because your arms start at up at the shoulder, not from the hips thus attacking arms is closer than attacking legs. This means that despite having longer reach you needed to get in closer to hit him.
He could also compensate with acrobatics that were impressive for someone who regularly used a walking stick.

[The Romulan Republic]

I very much doubt the person with the red lightsaber isn't a Force user. Throughout Star Wars, those with red lightsabers generally use the Dark Side. Also, their's a shot in the trailer of that character raising their hand in a way that looks very much like they're about to use the Force to either move something or choke someone, along with a weird sound effect.

[jwl]

. The side blades are simply a venting system as he otherwise couldn't figure out how to make the beam stable.

Where does everybody get this silly "venting" idea? No lightsaber ever needed venting, at best there is a radiator-section on training blades in the Jedi Path book. Luke's lightsaber didn't need venting despite being made on his own by a few notes and stuff he found in Kenobi's shack. This guy is a leader of an army that has new armor, getting good parts clearly wouldn't be an issue.

If it were really needed venting, it wouldn't be lightsaber blades, it would be hot gas like from a fire.
How on Earth would adding two side-blades aid in venting in any way? It would make heat-issues WORSE, not better.

Maybe it's some really old blade that has some special dark side power, but because it's old it is also primitive.

As for the reach advantage he would presumably have, this didn't seem to hurt Yoda that much in his duels.

That's not how fighting works and what are you talking about? I don't see the crossguard-lightsaber being longer, though I haven't measured it.

Look at the first teaser and pause it at about 0:55. While he's hunched over, the lightsaber is bigger than he is. It doesn't look as big in the other teaser though. Maybe he can modify its length?

Also, on the note of crossguards:

[Zixinus]

Maybe it's some really old blade that has some special dark side power, but because it's old it is also primitive.

That could be a good explanation why it is "rougher" looking too.

It doesn't look as big in the other teaser though. Maybe he can modify its length?

That is a feature that is in the EU (called Dual-phase lightsabers, supposedly Darth Vader and Dooku had this too. It is a relatively logical feature to have. You can surprise your enemy by suddenly making your lightsaber longer or shorter in the middle of a fight, reaching him when he thinks he's out of range or rushing in with a shorter blade for better in-fighting distance.

[Adam Reynolds]

Why? It is rougher looking in execution (it's confirmed that the director wanted it to look like that) but it looks like a lightsaber.

For a lightsaber, rougher looking is less stable. That was the whole idea. The title of the movie indicates that Jedi/Sith are much weaker than they previously had been. Otherwise there would be no reason for the Force to awaken in the first place.

Where does everybody get this silly "venting" idea? No lightsaber ever needed venting, at best there is a radiator-section on training blades in the Jedi Path book. Luke's lightsaber didn't need venting despite being made on his own by a few notes and stuff he found in Kenobi's shack. This guy is a leader of an army that has new armor, getting good parts clearly wouldn't be an issue.

It's not about quality of parts as much as it is about the knowledge of how to build one and the power in the Force required to do so. Both are things that Luke had in abundance. There is no evidence Kylo Ren has either. And the fact that he is attempting to collect Dark Side artifacts(including Vader's helmet) indicates that he is not fully trained as a proper SIth.

You are making too many assumption based just on the lightsaber being "rougher" looking. We do not know about the actual skill level about the guy, we will only know once we see him fighting. For all we know, he may be well-trained (he could be well-trained with fighting with regular swords and managed to adapt that) and he choose to add crossguards deliberately to gain advantage against classically trained Jedi. He may not even be a Force-user.

There is no way that the new movies would give someone a lightsaber and not make him a Force user. In any case, Clone Wars indicates that lightsabers are manufactured with Force powers. Someone without the Force couldn't even make one, even if it was an inferior copy.
Spoiler

Part of the reason why I made this assumption is due to spoilers that Kylo is far weaker and less intimidating than Vader. I probably should have spoilerized this fact in the first place. And other spoilers also indicate that the lightsaber is weaker. So there is that.

That's not how fighting works and what are you talking about? I don't see the crossguard-lightsaber being longer, though I haven't measured it.

Yoda could directly compensate for his shorter reach by his size. He was smaller (thus a smaller target) and his arms were much closer to the ground.
This may sound strange, but that's a big advantage. It's hard to target legs and especially feet because you need to get in closer than if you were to target hands or the torso. This is because your arms start at up at the shoulder, not from the hips thus attacking arms is closer than attacking legs. This means that despite having longer reach you needed to get in closer to hit him.
He could also compensate with acrobatics that were impressive for someone who regularly used a walking stick.

I am aware of the smaller size advantage Yoda has that somewhat makes up for his disadvantage in reach. I should have been more explicit in this point, but what I meant by the Yoda bit is that lightsaber duels are about raw power in the Force as more than they are about technique. As skilled as Obi-Wan was after three years of combat in the Clone Wars he would never have had a chance against the Emperor. Though he was able to beat the much stronger Anakin through superior tactics, meaning that skill has a role, but it can only overcome so much. Even if Kylo is impressive as a duelist, if he isn't strong enough in the Force, it doesn't matter.

As for the blade being longer, that was a point in the video I posted earlier. I'm not sure if it is personally.

Maybe it's some really old blade that has some special dark side power, but because it's old it is also primitive.

That is something of an interesting idea. Spoiler

Though spoilers indicate that Kylo built it himself and eventually builds a better one after meeting Andy Serkis' character, who is a more powerful Sith Lord.

That is a feature that is in the EU (called Dual-phase lightsabers, supposedly Darth Vader and Dooku had this too. It is a relatively logical feature to have. You can surprise your enemy by suddenly making your lightsaber longer or shorter in the middle of a fight, reaching him when he thinks he's out of range or rushing in with a shorter blade for better in-fighting distance.

Though those lightsabers did seem to have the problem that they were less reliable. Corran noted this after his failed in I, Jedi. And they weren't entirely more effective, though Corran did manage to suprise a Hutt with one before it failed. There is also the fact that they only appeared in six stories in the EU, so they are hardly common. And against a Jedi or Sith true surprise is impossible, doing something sudden would alert them in the Force. Wearing them down over time conventionally seems far more effective.

[Zixinus]

For a lightsaber, rougher looking is less stable. That was the whole idea.

"Less stable" is an assumption so far. Even so, the "less" stability might not be a significant factor during combat.

The title of the movie indicates that Jedi/Sith are much weaker than they previously had been. Otherwise there would be no reason for the Force to awaken in the first place.

Or it could be just a cool title. Again, you are just guessing.

It's not about quality of parts as much as it is about the knowledge of how to build one and the power in the Force required to do so. Both are things that Luke had in abundance. There is no evidence Kylo Ren has either. And the fact that he is attempting to collect Dark Side artifacts(including Vader's helmet) indicates that he is not fully trained as a proper SIth.

"In abundance" is an exaggeration. He had a little time with Kenobi and some time with Yoda. Luke made his lightsaber before returning to Yoda to complete his training. Luke's training was short and hasty.

We also do not know whether Kylo had any training. He could be one of Luke's students or a student of one of his student.

That he is collecting Dark Side artifacts does not indicate that he is untrained. That is an assumption.

Even if Kylo is impressive as a duelist, if he isn't strong enough in the Force, it doesn't matter.

Again, you do not know that and you are making assumptions, thinking him a weak imitator (maybe you are projecting your feelings about the movie unto the character?). We do not know that.

And they weren't entirely more effective, though Corran did manage to suprise a Hutt with one before it failed.

"More effective" is always debatable to the style and situation. It is a possibly useful feature, although not a dominating one.

[ray245]

You seem to be forgetting that C'boath was a major villain in that story. And your last sentence contradicts your opening, because Thrawn and C'boath were exactly "a new version of the Imperials and darksiders as the enemy".

The point is, despite Thrawn being an Imperial, he is defined as being different from what we have seen before. What makes him different from the OT villians is prominent enough that people do not remember him as such. Furthermore, the story isn't about C'Boath, even if he did play an important role.

In any event, what is it that sets Star Wars apart, and gives it the brand it is? I would say lightsaber duels, and one Space Wizard fighting another Space Wizard. It's in every one of the movies thus far, and really without it Star Wars would just be another sci-fi setting. The battle between "Good Jedi" and "Bad Jedi" is what sets it apart, IMO.

That I completely disagree. The fact that on this very forum, during the height of the EU, fans are already arguing for more stories that ISN'T centred around Sith vs. Jedi means people are a lot more open-minded than you think. You can and should define the franchise in different ways.

So for any movie that's going to be Star Wars: Episode [#] this is what I will expect to see, a lightsaber duel. Somewhere, somehow, it shall happen. The standalone movies can be different, and from what I've seen they apparently will be. But for the full on Episodes? Space Wizard vs Space Wizard with Laser Swords, for sure.

So why do you accept the notion that the spin-off movies can still be Star Wars movies despite not having a lightsaber duel? It's completely arbitrary that the "Episode" movies must include a duel while a "standalone" movie doesn't have to.

It's just a very limited and uncreative approach to the franchise. It's just very unoriginal and un-artistic.



This article below is doing a much better job expressing some of my concern about the approach taken by JJ and his crew regarding Star Wars.

https://onesaga.wordpress.com/2015/04/1 ... -reaction/