Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Adam Reynolds]

snip

I feel like all we're doing is talking past each other so I'll just simply things. My assumption is largely based on spoilers that I have seen.

There is also Spoiler

The fact that Luke's/Anakin's lightsaber is the macguffin similarly to the Death Star plans in ANH. Kylo is on a quest to find it. Why would this be the case if his lightsaber were already stronger?

The point is, despite Thrawn being an Imperial, he is defined as being different from what we have seen before. What makes him different from the OT villians is prominent enough that people do not remember him as such. Furthermore, the story isn't about C'Boath, even if he did play an important role.

Not one major character was involved in the final battle against Thrawn. Every single one faced C'Boath in the finale of The Last Command. For that matter the story wasn't about Thrawn either, it was about the further adventures of Luke, Han and Leia.

That I completely disagree. The fact that on this very forum, during the height of the EU, fans are already arguing for more stories that ISN'T centred around Sith vs. Jedi means people are a lot more open-minded than you think. You can and should define the franchise in different ways.

I believe the problem most had with the EU was with poor attempts to recreate the films by always making things bigger. The problem with the EU was that it was always trying to be Epic rather than simply telling good stories. For all its flaws, this is something Clone Wars has done well, using the SW setting to tell whatever stories they want. When you have how many dozens of novels, you have to be more creative.

As for the new films, they should be Jedi vs Sith. Star Wars episodes are all about this issue. If they wanted to make films about something else entirely, they should be pure spin offs.

This article below is doing a much better job expressing some of my concern about the approach taken by JJ and his crew regarding Star Wars.

https://onesaga.wordpress.com/2015/04/1 ... -reaction/

I would agree with some of what he said with regard to Abrams. Several pages ago, I said much of the same thing with regard to his Star Trek films and the question of the quality of TFA as a result.

But I would hardly take his words to fans at face value. They had already said that they would focus on practical effects over CGI, something the trailers show to be a lie. I think it is safe to say that he is trying to appease fanboys with his statements, not that he would sacrifice good storytelling to appease them.

[Mange]

This article below is doing a much better job expressing some of my concern about the approach taken by JJ and his crew regarding Star Wars.

https://onesaga.wordpress.com/2015/04/1 ... -reaction/

I can agree to that to a point. My hopes for the ST is that it visually will be a "blend" of the OT and the PT and show off a variety of locations. Looking at the OT, the only real advanced civilization we see is that on Cloud City and I really hope for Coruscant to make a return (I think it would be strange otherwise). I really hope the ST won't make the PT feel too disjointed.

It just dawned on me that the teaser shows the first time we see TIEs firing on ground targets (at least at least as far as the movies goes).

[jwl]

So for any movie that's going to be Star Wars: Episode [#] this is what I will expect to see, a lightsaber duel. Somewhere, somehow, it shall happen. The standalone movies can be different, and from what I've seen they apparently will be. But for the full on Episodes? Space Wizard vs Space Wizard with Laser Swords, for sure.

So why do you accept the notion that the spin-off movies can still be Star Wars movies despite not having a lightsaber duel? It's completely arbitrary that the "Episode" movies must include a duel while a "standalone" movie doesn't have to.

I'm perfectly happy for the sarah jane adventures to not include the doctor but that doesn't mean I would want that to happen for a season of the main doctor who series.

I would also argue that jedi vs sith, in some form, is the main thing that makes star wars what it is.

[Lord Revan]

This article below is doing a much better job expressing some of my concern about the approach taken by JJ and his crew regarding Star Wars.

https://onesaga.wordpress.com/2015/04/1 ... -reaction/

I can agree to that to a point. My hopes for the ST is that it visually will be a "blend" of the OT and the PT and show off a variety of locations. Looking at the OT, the only real advanced civilization we see is that on Cloud City and I really hope for Coruscant to make a return (I think it would be strange otherwise). I really hope the ST won't make the PT feel too disjointed.

It just dawned on me that the teaser shows the first time we see TIEs firing on ground targets (at least at least as far as the movies goes).

TIE fighters I think but TIE Bombers attacked "ground" targets back in Empire Strikes Back.

[Mange]

This article below is doing a much better job expressing some of my concern about the approach taken by JJ and his crew regarding Star Wars.

https://onesaga.wordpress.com/2015/04/1 ... -reaction/

I can agree to that to a point. My hopes for the ST is that it visually will be a "blend" of the OT and the PT and show off a variety of locations. Looking at the OT, the only real advanced civilization we see is that on Cloud City and I really hope for Coruscant to make a return (I think it would be strange otherwise). I really hope the ST won't make the PT feel too disjointed.

It just dawned on me that the teaser shows the first time we see TIEs firing on ground targets (at least at least as far as the movies goes).

TIE fighters I think but TIE Bombers attacked "ground" targets back in Empire Strikes Back.

Yes, I did think of those, but we didn't see any effect (apart from flashes) from the bombing.

[RogueIce]

The point is, despite Thrawn being an Imperial, he is defined as being different from what we have seen before. What makes him different from the OT villians is prominent enough that people do not remember him as such. Furthermore, the story isn't about C'Boath, even if he did play an important role.

You're missing the point. Was Thrawn a different Imperial? Yes. But he was still an Imperial. Hell he was even cruising around in the same old ISDs from the movies, yet the trailers show new designs buy you whine "too close" while Thrawn was in the same damn ship.

But at the end of the day, it was still Empire + Dark Jedi which is exactly what you're crying about Episode 7 doing. Never mind that we are seeing a different Empire here. FFS we have the Chrome Trooper, who is apparently important if he (or she) got a solo shot to him/herself. And we have a main character who is a stormtrooper, which is really fucking different from the OT. And that's in addition to the new visual look. And as for the Dark Jedi, well, we have no idea what his role will be outside of speculation and rumors. Shit, going by the trailer we may have Empire vs. Empire which is pretty damned different from the OT as well.

It's like you have this pessimism and want to see things as being "too much the same" or whatever, and aren't paying attention to the differences present, and making a lot of assumptions based off of incomplete information. Or you're one of those "wah JJ Abrams ruined Star Trek now he's ruining Star Wars" types, I don't know.

[Darth Nostril]

Think he just wants some cheese to go with his whine.
Because let's face it that's a lot of assumptions to make based on two teaser trailers.

[Soontir C'boath]

Anyway, it looks like movies and shows like Rogue One will offer people like Ray and myself want.

[Adam Reynolds]

I was looking through the new Star Wars in 100 scenes* and I found an interesting comment with regard to the Rebel victory at Endor. It stated that the heroes would undergo new challenges as they attempted to restore the Republic. It also directly stated that it was the death of the Sith. So who knows how those comments will affect the new movies.

* This is one of the only current SW reference books that is canon under the new policy. So presumably what it says is true with regard to the new movies. Though in terms of overall quality, it probably isn't worth getting.

[ray245]

You're missing the point. Was Thrawn a different Imperial? Yes. But he was still an Imperial. Hell he was even cruising around in the same old ISDs from the movies, yet the trailers show new designs buy you whine "too close" while Thrawn was in the same damn ship.

The point isn't to argue that Thrawn is entirely different from the old mould. It's simply the fact that fans are welcoming of change.

But at the end of the day, it was still Empire + Dark Jedi which is exactly what you're crying about Episode 7 doing. Never mind that we are seeing a different Empire here. FFS we have the Chrome Trooper, who is apparently important if he (or she) got a solo shot to him/herself. And we have a main character who is a stormtrooper, which is really fucking different from the OT. And that's in addition to the new visual look. And as for the Dark Jedi, well, we have no idea what his role will be outside of speculation and rumors. Shit, going by the trailer we may have Empire vs. Empire which is pretty damned different from the OT as well.

It's like you have this pessimism and want to see things as being "too much the same" or whatever, and aren't paying attention to the differences present, and making a lot of assumptions based off of incomplete information. Or you're one of those "wah JJ Abrams ruined Star Trek now he's ruining Star Wars" types, I don't know.

My point is the PT were a lot more different ( especially the TCW cartoon) in terms of visual design, yet there are a number of fans that can embrace a differrent kinds of design. TCW was popular despite having no rebels vs Empire paradigm, with the bad guys using droids.

Not one major character was involved in the final battle against Thrawn. Every single one faced C'Boath in the finale of The Last Command. For that matter the story wasn't about Thrawn either, it was about the further adventures of Luke, Han and Leia.

The general readership or at least among fans, people was talking about Thrawn more than anything else. People were talking about how they liked this character because he is different from the old mould. It's simply the idea that we could have an EP 7 that doesn't use Imperials, stormtroopers, TIE and X-Wings to be a good movie.

I believe the problem most had with the EU was with poor attempts to recreate the films by always making things bigger. The problem with the EU was that it was always trying to be Epic rather than simply telling good stories. For all its flaws, this is something Clone Wars has done well, using the SW setting to tell whatever stories they want. When you have how many dozens of novels, you have to be more creative.

As for the new films, they should be Jedi vs Sith. Star Wars episodes are all about this issue. If they wanted to make films about something else entirely, they should be pure spin offs.

Why must the main films be defined by Jedi vs Sith? I do not think Star Wars is merely about someone dueling with another bad guy with lightsabers. To me, it is just very limited imagination if you can only make a "good" Star Wars movie with lightsaber duel. I want Star Wars to be different, especially if it is 30 years after Endor. I want to see what they can do in a universe where the Sith is finally defeated.

What is going on right now is akin to resurrecting Voldermort in a Harry Potter sequel because writers have no idea how to create different kind of conflict for the protagonist to face. To me that is unoriginal and uncreative. I think that Star Wars should be able to redefine itself, or the franchise would just get boring eventually.

It's like you have this pessimism and want to see things as being "too much the same" or whatever, and aren't paying attention to the differences present, and making a lot of assumptions based off of incomplete information. Or you're one of those "wah JJ Abrams ruined Star Trek now he's ruining Star Wars" types, I don't know.

No. What I do want to see is something other than rebels fighting a new empire. I want to see fighters that looks different from TIE and X-Wings like what the PT, TCW and other EU books is doing all the time. Is it wrong to ask for something OTHER than TIE fighters with a different colour scheme?

Think he just wants some cheese to go with his whine.
Because let's face it that's a lot of assumptions to make based on two teaser trailers.

The two teasers are enough to show me JJ is reusing old designs, which is something I do not want in EP7. If people have no problems with JJ using different designs from the old TOS series in his Star Trek movies, why would the fans have a problem if we did not see TIE-fighters and X-Wings?

I cannot comment on the story itself, but it is fair for me to assume that I do not like the visual design used by JJ.


It seems people are attacking me because I am ruining their fun as opposed to really trying to understand the point I am trying to make.

[Gandalf]

You're missing the point. Was Thrawn a different Imperial? Yes. But he was still an Imperial. Hell he was even cruising around in the same old ISDs from the movies, yet the trailers show new designs buy you whine "too close" while Thrawn was in the same damn ship.

What is an Imperial anyway, aside from an English guy who may or may not be Force-chokeable?

[The Romulan Republic]

An Imperial is basically a supporter of the galactic Empire, aka the space Nazis. Generally defined by authoritarianism, militarism, and traditionally bigotry, though that seems to be changing now with the introduction of more black/female/gay Imperials. Might just be anti-alien prejudice (which clearly doesn't apply to Thrawn, though I do recall that he saw the Noghiri as backward).

[Elheru Aran]

Thrawn wasn't terribly impressed by the Noghri, but he respected them. I always took the 'backward' opinion of them as being more a matter of technological/cultural superiority than actual prejudice based upon them being aliens, similar to how European colonizers might have felt about Africans or Polynesians.

As for the rest of what constitutes an Imperial-- in the OT it was strictly members of the military, we never really saw any civilian leaders apart from Palpatine and a second's glimpse of various Imperial dignitaries in ROTJ. To be quite frank, the Empire was never fleshed out very much in the films, so to a large extent it's a fairly blank slate.

[The Romulan Republic]

You might want to use a different example, because I'm fairly sure a lot of European colonizers were very, very racist.

[Irbis]

To me, it is just very limited imagination if you can only make a "good" Star Wars movie with lightsaber duel. I want Star Wars to be different, especially if it is 30 years after Endor. I want to see what they can do in a universe where the Sith is finally defeated.

Name one SW movie without lightsaber duel. I am waiting.

Note that to give any challenge to Jedi protagonist you need anti-Jedi antagonist. Thrawn had anti-Jedi C'baoth, and yet, for the scenes where he wasn't on hand he needed anti-Force gizmo that was the only thing that allowed him to not be stomped on by Jedi of either side. A lot of anti-EU elitists hates the books for introducing this plot device. Imagine the outrage on anti-Force lizards had they been the only thing that allowed new villains to compete with Luke.

What is going on right now is akin to resurrecting Voldermort in a Harry Potter sequel because writers have no idea how to create different kind of conflict for the protagonist to face. To me that is unoriginal and uncreative.

No, it's like Death Eaters not instantly folding just because one bald idiot was killed and remaining a threat, perhaps in small, isolated groups conspiring on the side, but threat looking for revenge nonetheless. The fact that to you logical thing to happen is uncreative and boring is kind of sad.

No. What I do want to see is something other than rebels fighting a new empire. I want to see fighters that looks different from TIE and X-Wings like what the PT, TCW and other EU books is doing all the time. Is it wrong to ask for something OTHER than TIE fighters with a different colour scheme?

Maybe produce one coherent explanation what happened to whole military of both warring sides, then. Suffered critical existence failure the moment Palpatine died? Was he load-bearing element, perhaps?

[Elheru Aran]

You might want to use a different example, because I'm fairly sure a lot of European colonizers were very, very racist.

Oh, they were certainly racist too, I'm just saying that was part of their attitude. Of course it's not impossible for an alien to be... specist? speciesist? (whatever, you get the idea) as much as humans towards other aliens. Just never really got that *that* was a particular thing for Thrawn as much as the relative lack of technological advancement upon the part of the Noghri.

[Borgholio]

Of course it's not impossible for an alien to be... specist? speciesist?

I'd say racist actually makes more sense when talking about an alien race as opposed to simply another skin color of human.

[ray245]

Name one SW movie without lightsaber duel. I am waiting.

What about episodes from the Clone Wars? Having episodes without the Jedi around doesn't make the episode any less Star Wars than those with lightsaber duels.

Note that to give any challenge to Jedi protagonist you need anti-Jedi antagonist. Thrawn had anti-Jedi C'baoth, and yet, for the scenes where he wasn't on hand he needed anti-Force gizmo that was the only thing that allowed him to not be stomped on by Jedi of either side. A lot of anti-EU elitists hates the books for introducing this plot device. Imagine the outrage on anti-Force lizards had they been the only thing that allowed new villains to compete with Luke.

We have plenty of examples to draw from, where Jedi's were defeated by droids, bounty hunters and etc. Jango gave Obi-Wan a fair fight without any force powers. There is tons of way to create villians without the force that can go head to head against the Jedi. You just need to be creative.

No, it's like Death Eaters not instantly folding just because one bald idiot was killed and remaining a threat, perhaps in small, isolated groups conspiring on the side, but threat looking for revenge nonetheless. The fact that to you logical thing to happen is uncreative and boring is kind of sad.

If that is the case, then every post-WW2 era stories would be about having the protagonist fight some hidden Nazis around the world. It's just sad that you believe that all stories should be about the same conflict again and again. Societies and world change with times. How many people in WW2 would knew that the enemies they have to face in 2010s were Islamic fundamentalists/terrorist?

Maybe produce one coherent explanation what happened to whole military of both warring sides, then. Suffered critical existence failure the moment Palpatine died? Was he load-bearing element, perhaps?

It doesn't address the bigger problem I have. It's not about giving nice explanations as to why old designs continues to be used by the good guys and the bad guys, it's about being unable to let go of the past that is problematic here. I am saying you should not even use elements that were too similar to the OT when you are creating a sequel. Have the protagonist face new threats as opposed to resurgent old foes.

My problem is that fandom generally lacks imagination because the community is too stuck in the old ways of thinking about storylines and art design, that they could not produce anything new and interesting. JJ by being part of that fandom ( especially the generation that grew up with the OT in cinemas) could easily result in a situation whereby emulation is seen as a positive, instead of creativity.



None of your comments have really answered the bigger concerns I am having. That in terms of storyline and visual design, EP 7 seems repetitive and unoriginal to me. I want to see elements that reminds me that things have changed in the galaxy far, far away, not how much stuff is the same.

To sum it up:

1. Is it wrong to expect something different in Star Wars?
2. Can fans accept new elements in the film?
3. Can JJ create new factions for the protagonist to face?
4. Must Star Wars be defined by lightsaber duels and X-Wings?

[jwl]

Ray, if you are going to change everything about the series, what's the point of even having a new star wars movie?

If you aren't going to change everything about the series, what would you like to retain, if not jedi and sith?

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't think you have to have Jedi and Sith per say. But the Force, and the struggle between the Light Side and the Dark Side as personified by the adherents to either side, is absolutely key to Star Wars.

[ray245]

Ray, if you are going to change everything about the series, what's the point of even having a new star wars movie?

The point is you don't have to change everything. EP I remains a Star Wars movie despite having Gungans fighting the Droids. It's like instead having having more X-Wings dueling the TIE in space, we have snowspeeders against AT-AT.

If you aren't going to change everything about the series, what would you like to retain, if not jedi and sith?

Cinematography? The score? Having scifi battles on a massive scale? I think that Star Wars at its very core is about narrating a "history" of the Galaxy as an epic. It's like the Iliad, Odyssey and other forms of epic poetry/story.

I think you can make a Star Wars movie set 500 years into the future, with different characters and starship and still be a Star Wars movie. I think the ambitious level of storytelling is why Lucas decides that a Star Wars TV series is unfilmable.

I don't think you have to have Jedi and Sith per say. But the Force, and the struggle between the Light Side and the Dark Side as personified by the adherents to either side, is absolutely key to Star Wars.

I don't think it has to be limited to a fight between the light and dark side of the force. How an advanced technological universe dealing with an aspect of nature itself that cannot be understood entirely via technology and science is far more important than a mere fight between light and dark.

I think the conflict between force users and those without creates an interesting avenue for drama and storytelling as well.

[Borgholio]

One thing I'd like to see told is the story about the very first Force users. They would not be Jedi or Sith as we know them...these would be people who for the first time learn about the Force and take the first steps in understanding how to use it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Their are some good ideas here, but the conflict between the Light Side and the Dark Side would still be an issue. Hostility between those who use the Force and those who do not might spawn a Sith corrupted by hate toward his non-Force-using persecutors. And the discovery of the Force would inevitably lead to the first person to fall to the Dark Side. Anyway, the point remains that the Force is an intrinsic part of Star Wars. It may not always be the focus, but its always part of the background of the franchise, at least.

[Adam Reynolds]

My point is the PT were a lot more different ( especially the TCW cartoon) in terms of visual design, yet there are a number of fans that can embrace a differrent kinds of design. TCW was popular despite having no rebels vs Empire paradigm, with the bad guys using droids.

I don't think Clone Wars was that popular, at least among the size of audience that the new movie is trying to attract. It(along with the EU before it) might have been popular among hardcore SW fans, but if you went to the line in front of The Force Awakens and asked someone who Rex and Ashoka were I doubt very many of them would know who you were talking about.

And most of the visual differences aren't ones that people liked as much. Did anyone think Naboo starfighters were as good as X-wings?

Why must the main films be defined by Jedi vs Sith? I do not think Star Wars is merely about someone dueling with another bad guy with lightsabers. To me, it is just very limited imagination if you can only make a "good" Star Wars movie with lightsaber duel. I want Star Wars to be different, especially if it is 30 years after Endor. I want to see what they can do in a universe where the Sith is finally defeated.

What is going on right now is akin to resurrecting Voldermort in a Harry Potter sequel because writers have no idea how to create different kind of conflict for the protagonist to face. To me that is unoriginal and uncreative. I think that Star Wars should be able to redefine itself, or the franchise would just get boring eventually.

Do you notice that there aren't any Harry Potter sequels? The fact is that evil in SW revolves around the Sith. Having a conflict without them doesn't make sense. What I feel like this should be about is an era without the Jedi to keep the wannabees in line, rather than having the same powerful Sith as the old movies.

Note that to give any challenge to Jedi protagonist you need anti-Jedi antagonist. Thrawn had anti-Jedi C'baoth, and yet, for the scenes where he wasn't on hand he needed anti-Force gizmo that was the only thing that allowed him to not be stomped on by Jedi of either side. A lot of anti-EU elitists hates the books for introducing this plot device. Imagine the outrage on anti-Force lizards had they been the only thing that allowed new villains to compete with Luke.

The kyrptonite for Jedi and SIth is supposed to be each other, rather than a plot device.

Maybe produce one coherent explanation what happened to whole military of both warring sides, then. Suffered critical existence failure the moment Palpatine died? Was he load-bearing element, perhaps?

In fairness, couldn't the same question be asked about the droid/clone armies in the PT? Though I would mostly agree with you, there is also the issue that the ships we see all appear to be new designs of old things. But I would argue that this is because the designs have stabilized. In the PT we saw fairly quick turnaround with fighter designs because there wasn't enough of a threat to properly test them. By the time of the OT, most sides had effectively decides what their fighters should do and designed them accordingly. There thus wasn't much room for improvement.

What about episodes from the Clone Wars? Having episodes without the Jedi around doesn't make the episode any less Star Wars than those with lightsaber duels.

There were also individual episodes without a blaster ever being used. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't see action in the new movies. The series overall had lightsaber duels, you can't look at a single episode as a sample from a series like that the way you can for a movie.

We have plenty of examples to draw from, where Jedi's were defeated by droids, bounty hunters and etc. Jango gave Obi-Wan a fair fight without any force powers. There is tons of way to create villians without the force that can go head to head against the Jedi. You just need to be creative.

But that all happened in an era where Jedi were weakened by the presence of the Dark Side. Without Sith to weaken them, who knows how effective they would have been. We never see any displays of power in AOTC or ROTS that rival what we saw in TPM.

If that is the case, then every post-WW2 era stories would be about having the protagonist fight some hidden Nazis around the world. It's just sad that you believe that all stories should be about the same conflict again and again. Societies and world change with times. How many people in WW2 would knew that the enemies they have to face in 2010s were Islamic fundamentalists/terrorist?

Jedi vs Sith does change with the times. Their power bases are different and their tactics are different. When it comes down to it Jedi vs Sith is the Star Wars version of good vs evil(which is hardly so clear cut in reality).

It doesn't address the bigger problem I have. It's not about giving nice explanations as to why old designs continues to be used by the good guys and the bad guys, it's about being unable to let go of the past that is problematic here. I am saying you should not even use elements that were too similar to the OT when you are creating a sequel. Have the protagonist face new threats as opposed to resurgent old foes.

And how can you saw that the Sith we saw previously are the same ones we will see again. By that logic Darth Maul is the same as Darth Vader.

1. Is it wrong to expect something different in Star Wars?

No, but is is wrong to expect something that isn't really Star Wars. Star Wars isn't really a science fiction setting in the same sense as many others as much as it is an epic between good and evil. That epic requires both factions in order to work.

2. Can fans accept new elements in the film?

Most had no problem accepting the changes in the prequels.

3. Can JJ create new factions for the protagonist to face?

He has. The Empire in the trailer is not the same one that Palaptine led. We have no idea who actually controls the galaxy.

4. Must Star Wars be defined by lightsaber duels and X-Wings?

Lightsaber duels yes. X-wings aren't necceasry, though space battles are. But X-wings are such an iconic element

The point is you don't have to change everything. EP I remains a Star Wars movie despite having Gungans fighting the Droids. It's like instead having having more X-Wings dueling the TIE in space, we have snowspeeders against AT-AT.

So was ROTJ boring because it reused the dogfighting of ANH? It may have changed the context, just like the new films are doing, but it is still X-wings dogfighting TIEs.

I think you can make a Star Wars movie set 500 years into the future, with different characters and starship and still be a Star Wars movie. I think the ambitious level of storytelling is why Lucas decides that a Star Wars TV series is unfilmable.

Knights of the Old Republic largely did pull this off, but it was still Jedi vs Sith. And it went the opposite direction.

I don't think it has to be limited to a fight between the light and dark side of the force. How an advanced technological universe dealing with an aspect of nature itself that cannot be understood entirely via technology and science is far more important than a mere fight between light and dark.

Who says it cannot be understood? In TPM the Jedi are able to quantify the Force potential of an individual. That shows a great deal of understanding. The average citizen might not understand it due to the fact that Jedi and Sith hide away the knowledge, but proper Jedi and Sith understand it well enough. Though it is possible with the new movies that the knowledge has been lost.

I think the conflict between force users and those without creates an interesting avenue for drama and storytelling as well.

That would be interesting and perhaps we might see that somewhat in the new films, as there aren't really enough Jedi to be effective.
Spoiler

It is interesting that Han Solo appears to be taking on the Obi-Wan role as opposed to a Jedi.

Their are some good ideas here, but the conflict between the Light Side and the Dark Side would still be an issue. Hostility between those who use the Force and those who do not might spawn a Sith corrupted by hate toward his non-Force-using persecutors. And the discovery of the Force would inevitably lead to the first person to fall to the Dark Side. Anyway, the point remains that the Force is an intrinsic part of Star Wars. It may not always be the focus, but its always part of the background of the franchise, at least.

The key is that the fundamental struggle of good and evil rely on the Light and Dark Side. There can be smaller stories without this, but the big conflicts all revolve around it.

[ray245]

I don't think Clone Wars was that popular, at least among the size of audience that the new movie is trying to attract. It(along with the EU before it) might have been popular among hardcore SW fans, but if you went to the line in front of The Force Awakens and asked someone who Rex and Ashoka were I doubt very many of them would know who you were talking about.

However, the point has been made. That fans no matter how hardcore they are ( especially if they are hardcore about SW) can accept something different.

And most of the visual differences aren't ones that people liked as much. Did anyone think Naboo starfighters were as good as X-wings?

I do. I grew up with the Naboo fighters together with the X-Wings. I think that by being a little too young to let nostalgia influence by judgement on the prequels, I don't necessarily have to hold everything in the OT as being "better".

Do you notice that there aren't any Harry Potter sequels? The fact is that evil in SW revolves around the Sith. Having a conflict without them doesn't make sense. What I feel like this should be about is an era without the Jedi to keep the wannabees in line, rather than having the same powerful Sith as the old movies.

The point is that if you can't think of someone different for the heroes to face off with, do not ( from a writing point of view at the least) try and make a movie out of it. The news that Abrams threw out Lucas's script makes me wonder if Abrams really did have something different to tell, or did he threw out Lucas's story because it is too different? I think story writing isn't something Abrams is good at.

Moreover, I liked the idea of Vader ending the Sith for good. It shows the galaxy entering a different era for his children to built.

In fairness, couldn't the same question be asked about the droid/clone armies in the PT? Though I would mostly agree with you, there is also the issue that the ships we see all appear to be new designs of old things. But I would argue that this is because the designs have stabilized. In the PT we saw fairly quick turnaround with fighter designs because there wasn't enough of a threat to properly test them. By the time of the OT, most sides had effectively decides what their fighters should do and designed them accordingly. There thus wasn't much room for improvement.

I do not think we need to over rely on in-universe explanation why the design stayed the same. Films are visual medium. They uses art as a way of expressing ideas to the audience. The aim of the art design team shouldn't be about whether they can reuse old designs, but whether they can communicate easily to the audience that TFA is set in a different era. That the passage of time has passed.

There were also individual episodes without a blaster ever being used. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't see action in the new movies. The series overall had lightsaber duels, you can't look at a single episode as a sample from a series like that the way you can for a movie.

The point is a SW story has been told in an episode without relying on the idea that there must be a lightsaber duel.

But that all happened in an era where Jedi were weakened by the presence of the Dark Side. Without Sith to weaken them, who knows how effective they would have been. We never see any displays of power in AOTC or ROTS that rival what we saw in TPM.

I don't think having in-universe explanation to explain an out-of universe philosophy is a good idea. You aren't really dealing with the point I am making. I'm saying that you can creatively come up with different kinds of scenario to make life difficult for a Jedi. The audience watching the movie isn't going to care whether the Jedi in the prequels were weakened by the dark side or not. All they care is they can watch a scenario where a Jedi is under threat by someone not holding a lightsaber.

Jedi vs Sith does change with the times. Their power bases are different and their tactics are different. When it comes down to it Jedi vs Sith is the Star Wars version of good vs evil(which is hardly so clear cut in reality).

But they are fundamentally still the same thing. It's would be like calling an Islamic terrorist the same as a Nazi simply because they were considered as evil to us. It's just very unimaginative to me.

And how can you saw that the Sith we saw previously are the same ones we will see again. By that logic Darth Maul is the same as Darth Vader.

In his most basic form, he is someone holding a red lightsaber and being the evil guy.

No, but is is wrong to expect something that isn't really Star Wars. Star Wars isn't really a science fiction setting in the same sense as many others as much as it is an epic between good and evil. That epic requires both factions in order to work.

Why does it require a sith for it to work? This is a question you have yet to answer.

Most had no problem accepting the changes in the prequels.

So what is wrong for asking for a greater degree of change than what we have seen so far?

He has. The Empire in the trailer is not the same one that Palaptine led. We have no idea who actually controls the galaxy.

Sure, there might be some differences from the old Empire, but visually they are the exact same bunch of people. They use stormtroopers (with different helmet) and they fly TIE-fighters. That to me is boring.

Lightsaber duels yes. X-wings aren't necceasry, though space battles are. But X-wings are such an iconic element

Can you explain why are duels necessary? What makes them so important that we must always see someone fighting a bad guy with a red lightsaber? I certainly think I can enjoy a Star Wars movie without the Sith around.

So was ROTJ boring because it reused the dogfighting of ANH? It may have changed the context, just like the new films are doing, but it is still X-wings dogfighting TIEs.

Yes, it is simply repetitive. And that to me is why I didn't enjoy ROTJ and prefer the prequels over it.

Knights of the Old Republic largely did pull this off, but it was still Jedi vs Sith. And it went the opposite direction.

You are not addressing my point.

Who says it cannot be understood? In TPM the Jedi are able to quantify the Force potential of an individual. That shows a great deal of understanding. The average citizen might not understand it due to the fact that Jedi and Sith hide away the knowledge, but proper Jedi and Sith understand it well enough. Though it is possible with the new movies that the knowledge has been lost.

Being able to quantify the force potential of someone does not equate to understanding the Force. The Jedi has no idea how someone can use the force to retain an identity after death for example. Or how Anakin was conceived.

That would be interesting and perhaps we might see that somewhat in the new films, as there aren't really enough Jedi to be effective.

Then why is it necessary for there to be a Sith around?

The key is that the fundamental struggle of good and evil rely on the Light and Dark Side. There can be smaller stories without this, but the big conflicts all revolve around it.

Why?