EU to launch military operations against migrant-smugglers

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EU to launch military operations against migrant-smugglers

Post by ray245 »

The European Union is to launch military operations against the networks of smugglers in Libya deemed culpable of sending thousands of people to their deaths in the Mediterranean.

An emergency meeting of EU interior and foreign ministers in Luxembourg on Monday, held in response to the reported deaths of several hundred migrants in a packed fishing trawler off the Libyan coast at the weekend, also decided to bolster maritime patrols in the Mediterranean and give their modest naval mission a broader search-and-rescue mandate for saving lives.

A summit of EU leaders is to take place in Brussels on Thursday to hammer out the details of the measures hurriedly agreed on Monday. The 28 EU governments called for much closer cooperation with Libya’s neighbours, such as Egypt, Tunisia, and Niger, in an attempt to close down the migratory routes. But senior political figures and EU officials conceded this would be difficult and also voiced scepticism about the emphasis on targeting the traffickers.

Following the reported deaths of around 1,300 migrants in three incidents in less than a fortnight in the waters south of Sicily, the pressure was on the EU and its member states to come up with new policies addressing headlines branding the incidents “Europe’s shame”.

“I hope today is the turning point in the European conscience, not to go back to promises without actions,” said Federica Mogherini, the former Italian foreign minister who is the EU’s chief foreign and security policy coordinator and who chaired Monday’s meeting.

The meeting “identified some actions” aimed at combatting the trafficking gangs mainly in Libya, such as “destroying ships”, Mogherini said.

Dimitris Avramopoulos, the European commissioner for migration issues, said the operation would be “civil-military” modelled on previous military action in the Horn of Africa to combat Somali piracy. The military action would require a UN mandate.

No detail was supplied on the scale and range of the proposed operation, nor of who would take part in it. But European leaders from David Cameron to Angela Merkel and Matteo Renzi, the Italian prime minister, were emphatic on Monday in singling out the fight against the migrant traffickers as the top priority in the attempt to rein in a crisis that is spiralling out of control.

“[This is] a systematic effort to capture and destroy vessels used by the smugglers. The positive results obtained with the [Somali] operation should inspire us to similar operations against smugglers in the Mediterranean,” said the European commission.

But Rihards Kozlovskis, the Latvian interior minister, said the scheme could run into problems. “How can it be done?” he asked. “It’s not so easy this civil-military operation. We’re talking of the territorial waters of third countries.”

A senior EU official doubted whether the focus on targeting the traffickers would work. “The idea of surgical strikes on traffickers is not very serious. Do they know enough about the traffickers to mount a military operation?”

A main focus of complaints about the EU’s lacklustre response to the situation in the Mediterranean has been the limited scope of the Triton naval patrols run by the union’s Frontex borders agency. Triton replaced a much bigger, more ambitious, and more effective Italian navy mission last year.

Monday’s meeting agreed to expand the Frontex operation, increase its funding and assets, extend its zone of patrolling beyond Italian territorial waters, and ordered it to do more to save stranded migrants rather than simply secure the EU’s external frontier.

With migration professionals and Frontex itself warning that there are hundreds of thousands of migrants from sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East waiting in the chaos of Libya to board unseaworthy vessels bound for Europe, the meeting made a few tentative moves addressing the vexed issue of where refugees and asylum-seekers should go in the EU. There is no common policy, no sharing of an influx, and national governments are determined to retain prerogatives over deciding their own refugee admissions policies.

The ministers and officials announced a modest pilot scheme to resettle 5,000 refugees on an EU-wide basis, with countries volunteering to take part. Mogherini spoke of consensus being reached on more willingness “to share responsibility for the resettlement of refugees.” EU asylum officials are to go to the Mediterranean frontline states of Italy and Greece to conduct “joint” processing of asylum applications which were to be dealt with within two months of the claims being lodged.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/a ... iterranean

It's worrying that there is an increasing attitude towards these refugees to let them drown.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Sooo ... they plan to go back and bomb the shit out of Libya?
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by Thanas »

Yes, because if the past years told us anything, if bombing them doesn't work, bomb them again.

What are root causes? [/sarcasm]


Honestly, the choices so far are either letting them drown or rescuing them. Europe doesn't want to do the latter because they get saddled with the debt and sending people back is time-consuming and costs a lot - if you can even send them back. So instead of doing the humane thing the great and mighty leaders of Europe have decided to destroy the means by which they attempt to cross.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Thanas wrote:Yes, because if the past years told us anything, if bombing them doesn't work, bomb them again.

What are root causes? [/sarcasm]


Honestly, the choices so far are either letting them drown or rescuing them. Europe doesn't want to do the latter because they get saddled with the debt and sending people back is time-consuming and costs a lot - if you can even send them back. So instead of doing the humane thing the great and mighty leaders of Europe have decided to destroy the means by which they attempt to cross.
There is the choice of taking ownership of the chaos in Libya (because in part they are a result of the bombing) and sending peacekeeping troops, but clearly no one gives a fuck enough to care.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by K. A. Pital »

B-but, I thought liberated free democratic Libya is a nice place to live in. Why are these people running away from freedom to die in crappy trawlers? Do they hate freedom? No freedom for the enemies of freedom, eh.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by Darth Tanner »

I don't believe the majority of these people are actually from Libya but because the state has more or less collapsed due to Islamic radicals in Libya there is no one to stop the people smugglers operating from Libyan shores anymore. The fact the migrants have been throwing Christians overboard because they wouldn't pray to Allah doesn't really ingratiate them with me.

Things would obviously be simpler if the West had not intervened in Libya because Gaddafi would then have butchered the rebels and he was very effective at stopping people feeing to Europe... via machine guns.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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The desperate people attempting to cross the Mediterranean didn't start with the bombing of Libya. Refugees have been attempting the crossing for decades - well, more likely, probably since forever but the current problem is at least decades-long. It's inhumane to let them drown but it's also expensive to rescue them and take them in - the US has had this problem as well, between people trying to cross the water from Cuba to Florida for the past 50 years (and a lot of them drowning), or trying to cross the desert that spans Northern Mexico and the Southwest United States (where people don't drown, they die of thirst and heat). One of my high school classmates was a Vietnamese boat person - he spoke on occasion rather vividly of being in a sinking boat out of sight of land in water up to his knees and expecting to die when they were rescued.

In other words, this is not a new problem, nor is it limited to Europe.

If you keep rescuing them you can wind up with the problem growing. If you do anything to make the passage safer you risk the problem growing AND the death rate going up because this sort of thing is never going to be safe. If you don't help them you're an asshole (at best) or a murderer. If you send them back home you risk them attempting the crossing again or being killed back home. If you allow them to stay you have problems with assimilation. If you target the "coyotes" arranging the smuggling then you get individuals trying to make the crossing anyway.

Desperate people take outrageous risks. That's not going to change. The only way to stop this is for change to come to the places they originate so people are no longer so desperate to flee. Problem with that is that no one seems very good at effecting change from the outside.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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Broomstick wrote: If you allow them to stay you have problems with assimilation.
Won't the bigger problem with assimilation be mainly adults who already have a pre-conceived notion of how societies ought to function? Allowing children in ( in the event they no longer have any parents with them or with the permission of their parents to live separately ) could be a slightly more humane thing to do at the very least.
Desperate people take outrageous risks. That's not going to change. The only way to stop this is for change to come to the places they originate so people are no longer so desperate to flee. Problem with that is that no one seems very good at effecting change from the outside.
Well, helping them to found new places and cities that is actually liveable would help, even if it is not in Europe. Refugee camps are already in the midst of turning into cities anyway, just one that isn't ideal for people to live in. You might as well turn those refugee camps into working cities with UN troops protecting those areas till the region stabilise. This would at the very least make people a lot less desperate in the short run.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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ray245 wrote:
Broomstick wrote: If you allow them to stay you have problems with assimilation.
Won't the bigger problem with assimilation be mainly adults who already have a pre-conceived notion of how societies ought to function? Allowing children in ( in the event they no longer have any parents with them or with the permission of their parents to live separately ) could be a slightly more humane thing to do at the very least.
The US experience, which will only be partly relevant to Europe, is that while that works in some circumstances there still remains a sub-group that never adapts well. The Sudanese Lost Boys, for example, have some fantastic success stories but a lot of them were not able to overcome the trauma they had suffered prior to coming to the US and are existing in poverty and struggle. Children aren't blank slates (well, maybe infants) and the events that lead to fleeing their homeland can still impact them, they still have a native culture, culture shock, at least initially language barriers...

It would also be cruel to entirely strip them of their native culture - again, the US experience with Natives forced into boarding schools, and the Australia's stolen children are examples.
Desperate people take outrageous risks. That's not going to change. The only way to stop this is for change to come to the places they originate so people are no longer so desperate to flee. Problem with that is that no one seems very good at effecting change from the outside.
Well, helping them to found new places and cities that is actually liveable would help, even if it is not in Europe. Refugee camps are already in the midst of turning into cities anyway, just one that isn't ideal for people to live in. You might as well turn those refugee camps into working cities with UN troops protecting those areas till the region stabilise. This would at the very least make people a lot less desperate in the short run.
>sigh<

You don't want isolated islands in a sea of a nation. That doesn't work well either.

Again, from the US experience, we've had some success with allowing spontaneous communities of immigrants to form ("Chinatown", "Little Italy", etc.) which provide a safe haven for those who can't adapt well or manage a new language, but also allowing people to move freely out of such enclaves. The grouping allows targeting of social services, but it is vital that these do not become enforced segregation.

When the Hmong were brought over they were deliberately settled in groups in major cities, allowing for efficient social services, but also allowing the next generation to assimilate to the degree they desired and move out into the general population. Even so, there were massive problems with that group, from the fact virtually all adults were illiterate in their native language (Hmong didn't have a written form until the 20th Century, and that was imposed from without) to at one point a significant number of otherwise healthy adult men were literally dropping dead from stress, the culture shock was that bad for some. Subsequent generations have adapted well, but the initial group brought over still require a LOT of social support and care, most of them were not able to achieve true independence.

But the whole "next generation does better" really does require tolerance on the part of the rest of the population. A second generation group of the Hmong can blend into the poly-ethnic population of a major US urban center, you don't know they're Hmong unless they say so, and while there are still problems of intolerance and discrimination they are also seen as full citizens and members of the society. This is not the case everywhere else, including other locations in the US that are much more uniform in appearance, culture, and custom. I understand Europe also faces similar issues, but with European nuances depending on which country and urban center you're talking about. Some Europeans are more tolerant, some are less. I'm sure this isn't news to anyone. If Generation Two can't move into the mainstream then you have a problem that is NOT going away.

Quite a few African-Americans have moved to France over the years because for much of the recent centuries France was more willing to assimilate them than the US was - not that things were perfect in France, just that there were fewer barriers. On the other hand, Muslims seem to assimilate better in the US than in France. Why? I could pull a few guesses out of my ass but I'm moving past the notion I have all the answers to that question.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by ray245 »

Broomstick wrote: Quite a few African-Americans have moved to France over the years because for much of the recent centuries France was more willing to assimilate them than the US was - not that things were perfect in France, just that there were fewer barriers. On the other hand, Muslims seem to assimilate better in the US than in France. Why? I could pull a few guesses out of my ass but I'm moving past the notion I have all the answers to that question.
I know I am generalising quite a bit, but isn't the US generally more religiously conservative than Europe ( or western Europe to say the least)? Public display of religion seems to be a thing more frowned upon in Europe than many other places.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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Very broadly speaking that's a fair assessment. On the other hand, the US seems much more tolerant of Muslims, at least in urban areas (rural America can be extremely cultish) - then again, we were never invaded by them like Europe was.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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Nigel Farage blames Sarkozy and Cameron for the problem:
Election 2015: Farage accuses PM over migrant deaths
19 April 2015
From the section Election 2015
Nigel Farage
Mr Farage says Christians in Libya have "almost nowhere to go"
Prime Minister David Cameron's bombing of Libya has "directly caused" migrant disasters in the Mediterranean Sea, UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said.
His comments came as hundreds of people are feared to have drowned after a boat carrying up to 700 migrants capsized.
Mr Farage told the BBC he did not have a "problem" offering refugee status to "some Christians from those countries".
Conservatives accused him of making "cheap political points". Nick Clegg said he had no regrets over Libya.
Speaking on BBC One's Sunday Politics show, Mr Farage said military action in 2011 had destabilised Libya and led to mass migration.
"The fanaticism of [former French president] Sarkozy and Cameron to bomb Libya - and what they've done is to completely destabilise Libya, to turn it into a country with much savagery, to turn it into a place where for Christians the situation is virtually impossible.
"We ought to be honest and admit we have directly caused this problem.
"There were no migrants coming across from Libya in these quantities before we bombed the country, got rid of [the then Libyan leader] Gaddafi and destabilised the situation."
He added: "I'm the one person that has said that I do think - especially for Christians in that part of the world - they now have almost nowhere to go.
"I have not got a problem with us offering refugee status to some Christians from those countries."
Speaking later on the campaign trail in Ash, Kent, Mr Farage said he believed the military action in Libya should be on Mr Cameron's conscience.
"After all, there are millions of people who blame Tony Blair for going to war on a lie and whilst Libya may be smaller scale, I think in foreign policy terms it's the biggest mistake he has made as prime minister," he added.
Deputy prime minister Mr Clegg said: 'I don't regret supporting intervention with other countries in stopping what would have been an absolute blood bath.
"Remember when Colonel Gaddafi was threatening to pretty well kill every single innocent man, woman and child in Benghazi and that was the trigger, which I think for humanitarian grounds quite rightly led to the response from ourselves and other members of the international community."
The Liberal Democrat leader added that this "large scale loss of life" in Libyan waters showed there was an urgent need for the European Union to "review arrangements because we just cannot on moral grounds have such large numbers of people dying in such regular intervals in the Mediterranean".
'Cheap political points'
Home Office Minister James Brokenshire accused Mr Farage of making "cheap political points" and argued that the situation required "action at an EU level", working with the African Union and others.
He told the BBC News channel: "In the wake of such an appalling tragedy, if all that Nigel Farage can do is to make, frankly, cheap political points - I think it shows his lack of understanding of the issues at hand here.
"The need is actually to use humanitarian aid and assistance to stop those flows - something that his party said it would slash."
Labour's shadow home secretary, Yvette Cooper, said: "Today's dreadful and distressing tragedy shows how urgently we need EU and international action to prevent thousands of people from drowning off Europe's shores.
"The British government must immediately reverse its opposition to EU search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean, as the EU needs to restart the rescue as soon as possible."
'Proud of action'
Conservative Culture Secretary Sajid Javid said: 'However difficult the situation in Libya is today - and it is challenging - just think what could have happened if Gaddafi would have got his way.
"So I'm proud of the action that we took with our allies, it was the right thing to do."
When asked whether the UK should take some of the migrants, Mr Javid said: 'I don't think that's what's required."
The ultimate solution is to help create a more stable and secure Libya, he told Sky News' Murnaghan.
"We provide aid to Libya along with our partners, we provide military training for its government and help in other ways and that's the only long-term solution."
A major rescue operation is currently under way after the vessel capsized in Libyan waters south of the Italian island of Lampedusa.
This year, at least 900 other migrants have died crossing the Mediterranean.
The UN refugee agency, the UNHCR, said the latest sinking could amount to the largest loss of life during a migrant crossing to Europe.
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said Britain would offer the expertise of the National Crime Agency and the security services to help identify and target the traffickers.
Britain could also help by driving migration through its aid programme in the "key source countries", he said.
He is meeting his EU counterparts in Luxembourg on Monday for talks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32374871
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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The African population explosion will send an endless stream of migrants towards Europe.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... e19998373/

The simple solution is to send the boats back to Libya and I wonder how many years until this is being done by force?

Ghaddafi was another dictator like Saddam and Assad whom we should have sent aid rather than Tomahawks.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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cosmicalstorm wrote:The simple solution is to send the boats back to Libya and I wonder how many years until this is being done by force?
You do realize your "simple solution" will be a death sentence for many?
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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Calling it a solution makes me sound like a nazi. It's not a solution. Truth is I don't have a clue on how to deal with the African demographic situation. I think it's going to cause many instances of famine, civil war and disease. Possibly a real pandemic sooner or later.

I'm a bit annoyed by the migrant debate though, everyone is pretending that there is some really nice happy way to handle this, when there is no nice way to fix it.
Accept everyone and the stream of people will double constantly, accept boats that are broken and thats what the smugglers will continue to send.
We could build a big bridge across the mediterranean and send freight trains on a non stop shuttle basis back and forth and even then it wouldn't be nearly enough. And all this while Europe has a really dysfunctional way of integrating these people who have already made it here.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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Oh I should add that I'm eternally thankful for being born in a nice place in space and time. If I was born I Africa chances are I'd try this risky journey before the borders are lined with razorwire and machineguns.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

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Ugh. Such a small planet, and we haughtily hold on to our respective little slices of it with such jealousy...
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by AniThyng »

Chimaera wrote:Ugh. Such a small planet, and we haughtily hold on to our respective little slices of it with such jealousy...
Uh, yeah, most countries would be rightly concerned with being unable to handle a overlarge inflow of refugees with no easy way of integrating them or providing for them.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I think that a lot of this problem would be solved by recognizing that freedom of movement/emigration is a right for anyone who's not carrying a highly dangerous and contagious disease or a suspected or convicted criminal.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by AniThyng »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think that a lot of this problem would be solved by recognizing that freedom of movement/emigration is a right for anyone who's not carrying a highly dangerous and contagious disease or a suspected or convicted criminal.
Sure, then you're still left with the problem of the receiving countries being unable to support such immigration or provide reasonable accommodations for the immigrants.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The EU is huge. As numerous as the immigrants are, they are not so many compared to the EU's population. The EU has hundreds of millions of people, and they're talking about resettling just 5,000 as if that's some big deal? Fuck them. They can take more than 5,000 desperate human beings. They just don't want to because of the whining of Right wing bigots. Again, fuck them. Cowardice and hypocrisy.

Edit: And I'm not letting the US and Canada off the hook too. I can say without exaggeration that I would welcome the Canadian government deciding to resettle a few thousand of these people in my hometown should any of them wish to come here.
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by ray245 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:The EU is huge. As numerous as the immigrants are, they are not so many compared to the EU's population. The EU has hundreds of millions of people, and they're talking about resettling just 5,000 as if that's some big deal? Fuck them. They can take more than 5,000 desperate human beings. They just don't want to because of the whining of Right wing bigots. Again, fuck them. Cowardice and hypocrisy.

Edit: And I'm not letting the US and Canada off the hook too. I can say without exaggeration that I would welcome the Canadian government deciding to resettle a few thousand of these people in my hometown should any of them wish to come here.
Well, the austerity certainly isn't going to help the society at large to be more welcoming of them. However, the big problem isn't whether there is space or cash to accommodate new influx of migrants and refugees, but whether how to integrate them into a part of European society. That is the big problem Europe is trying to resolve.
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Integration is simple. You have the same rights as everyone else and can have whatever culture/beliefs you want as long as you follow the law (which should not favour any group but protect the right to live your life as you wish so long as doing so does not hurt anyone or infringe on their rights). If you don't, we chuck you in jail or deport you following due process like any other criminal. In other words, equality.

Its not a complicated issue. All it requires is a bit of open-mindedness and some courage and integrity from governments. Which I guess is asking for a lot, but there's nothing wrong with grand aspirations.
Grumman
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by Grumman »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I think that a lot of this problem would be solved by recognizing that freedom of movement/emigration is a right for anyone who's not carrying a highly dangerous and contagious disease or a suspected or convicted criminal.
The Romulan Republic wrote:The EU is huge. As numerous as the immigrants are, they are not so many compared to the EU's population. The EU has hundreds of millions of people, and they're talking about resettling just 5,000 as if that's some big deal? Fuck them. They can take more than 5,000 desperate human beings.
You aren't talking about taking in five thousand people. There are thirteen million people living in Zimbabwe alone - how many of them do you imagine believe they're better off staying in that shithole than moving to Germany?
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ray245
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Re: EU to launch military operations against migrant-smuggle

Post by ray245 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Integration is simple. You have the same rights as everyone else and can have whatever culture/beliefs you want as long as you follow the law (which should not favour any group but protect the right to live your life as you wish so long as doing so does not hurt anyone or infringe on their rights). If you don't, we chuck you in jail or deport you following due process like any other criminal. In other words, equality.

Its not a complicated issue. All it requires is a bit of open-mindedness and some courage and integrity from governments. Which I guess is asking for a lot, but there's nothing wrong with grand aspirations.
That's equality, not integration. What happens when an ethnic/religious community views homophobia as a cultural/ethnic trait? It just seems that in Europe and especially in the UK, there is a much greater requirement for more social interaction as a community than places like the US. Ethnic enclave is viewed as a more problematic issue in Europe, especially when the second generation of migrants have problems accepting the "social norms" of the wider community.

It's not as simple as following the law and live out your life as an individual or as part of an ethnic enclave. There's a level of expectation that migrants could bond with the local community as well.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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