Zixinus wrote:
Your theory: before the appearance of the Dark Shroud, Jedi were much were powerful and near unbeatable. Only a Sith's influence can make a reliably Jedi defeatable (the fact that a large mayority of Jedi were killed by Order 66 disproves this).
I have already said, Order 66 happened after the Jedi had their abilities weakened. That is hardly indicative of what Jedi would be capable of at their height.
And I never said that Jedi were unbeatable. What I said was that the only consistent threat to the most powerful Jedi(as the next generation of Skywalkers will be) was fellow Force users. From a writing standpoint, it is a good idea to have serious antagonists that are more powerful than our heroes. Having someone that is less powerful is never a good idea, even if they can occasionally win.
Zixinus wrote:My theory: the Dark Shroud blocked long-term foresight of Jedi. This had a significant effect on the Order's ability to deploy itself because they relied heavily on it for their long-term planning. However, otherwise they were unaffected.
I mostly agree. The biggest impact was due to their foresight being affected. But their combat abilities also suffered as a result. And at the climax, Order 66, their short term precog was affected to the point that they were unable to even see the immediate future.
Zixinus wrote:How Krell disproves your hteory: Krell turned to the Dark Side and thus became immune to the Dark Shroud's effects. He demonstrated this by foreseeing the Empire's rise. Yet he was still killed.
If your theory were true, Krell should have been undefeatable or at least only defeatable by tiring him out and wearing him down. Instead, Krell's plan of turning the clones against each other failed (yet his foresight was unclouded), he was surprised by the tentacle-flower-thing and was stunned. In imprisonment he was simply killed rather than try escape again. He clearly was a very capable fighter yet he still was killed.
As I said, relying on the Dark Side in combat leads to less rational decisions in combat when not properly trained and disciplined, things Krell gave no indication of. The shroud of the Dark Side was irrelevant in this case.
Then how did he still manage to fight despite heavy resistance?
Because he had power rather than control.
Zixinus wrote:My theory is that the Dark Shroud only blocks long-term foresight. This is supported by the context of the dialog where they mention this, talking about unable to foresse an attempt on the Queen's life. Krell's ability to foresee the emergence of the Empire (or at least, the shift in the nature of the Republic) shows that he was uneffected by it.
They were talking about the fact that they were unable to see the creation of the Clone Army, a much larger event. And a single vision isn't the same as effective foresight. Luke was able to see his friends on Bespin but unable to see any details regarding it, while Yoda was.
Zixinus wrote:What are you talking about? If you mean more acrobatics, that could be simply due to Lucas being able to do more acrobatics in the first film and decided to needing to do less in the later films for whatever reasons.
Are we using out of universe or in universe arguements? The fact that there were less acrobatics, even when it could have been useful, implies that there was a reason it wasn't. The shroud of the Dark Side is a known entity and thus explains this. Mace Windu didn't state our ability to see is diminished, he stated that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
If we're allowing writer's fiat into the debate then it doesn't matter who they fight because the Jedi will always win in the end.
1. Until the destroyer droids showed up, they only faced the B1 battle droids that were very weak fighters, especially before they were upgraded after the Battle of Naboo. They were only significant threat in overly high numbers. This allowed the two Jedi to take more risks than otherwise would. After their desperate scramble to get to the chancellor (and then force him to disable all battle droids at lightsaber-point), they run and avoid combat if they can and rely on stealth.
If you are counting Clone Wars as fully canon, battle droids were far more effective on Naboo than during the Clone Wars. And I think you mean viceroy rather than chancellor.
Zixinus wrote:2. Both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were very formidable fighters, as evidenced by the fact that they still managed to stand up to Darth Maul.
Of course they were. But Obi-Wan shows more impressive powers as a padawan in TPM than in ROTS, as a master sitting on the Jedi council.
Unless someone is creative enough to figure out an alternative, perhaps warriors who are made, equipped and trained to be immune or resistant to most common Jedi abilities and Force powers. I think a dedicated thread should me made discussing what that would be.
One possibility is a purely inorganic but highly mutable and diverse species that have a chaotic hive-mind. The Yuuzhan Vong were also an example of this, being outside the Galaxy's regular Force and instead forming their own.
The Yuzhan Vong were an awful idea. A biowank alien invasion of the SW galaxy. I would rather have more Jedi vs Sith.
The hive mind idea is interesting. Perhaps we should make another thread about ideas like this.
Less affected or more able to gain from what little wasn't blocked? Yoda seen past the Republic's need of the Jedi.
He was the only Jedi we saw who could still tell that Order 66 had occurred. That implies a level of ability far beyond fellow Jedi, including two fellow council members.
No, but there is little to no indication that most other masters were close to his level of ability.
In TPM he was the only one who had the wisdom to doubt their abilities. Mace Windu was adamant that the Jedi would have detected the Sith. Yoda realized the Dark Side would be harder to see.
Zixinus wrote:The problem with the locking of Jedi vs Sith dynamic is that at this point has become old. By now the EU and especially its Old Republic aspects have very well explored that dynamic. We seen the Jedi dominating the Galaxy while the Sith is in hiding and vice-versa, as well as the two in opposing wars. Saying that only one can oppose the other creatively locks the dynamic down.
Have we seen a proper scenario in which neither is in power? Because that is the indication I get from the new films. Once they have done that, I would agree that they should move on to another threat. Though I would also like to see a movie about Darth Bane creating the Rule of Two as the old Sith crumbled(though I doubt we will). It would fit the mold of villain protagonists that is so popular lately.
Zixinus wrote:Being more notable does not imply that it is more lasting. The Sith tradition died with the death of Vader and Palpatine because they were the last practitioners, unless Darth Maul (or some other student) is still kicking around somewhere or managed to pass on his knowledge. The whole point of the Role of Two of that version of Sith tradition was to minimize their number to only Master-Apprentice roles to minimize the chance of being discovered by small number of members.
The Sith tradition is longer than the Bane tradition. There is no indication that this is fully dead.
Alternatives actually may have outlasted the Sith tradition by being more restrained and thus not attracting the attention of the Jedi during the Old Republic. The Night Sisters were an example of Dark-Side Force-users because they avoided making the Jedi their enemy, the Jedi clearly tolerating their practices.
Or the Jedi simply had bigger problems by the time the Nightsisters emerged. The Jedi tolerated them because they were content to sit on a single planet outside the Republic and thus largely outside the jurisdiction of the Jedi.
The only reason other traditions would have have been destroyed if the Sith sought them out. It seems certainly their way to destroy competition.
Why wouldn't Palpatine have destroyed them? It would be rational to destroy any potential Force users that could be a threat. Thus I would find it odd for any alternative Force traditions to have survived the Empire.