Ultimate Star Wars book

[Balrog]

So I paged through this today looking at a few things and one thing has become apparent about the new Disney canon: we're going to see a lot of the old EU ported straight over with little to no alteration, at least as far as background tech stuff is concerned.

It tries to include as many characters, locations, vehicles, etc. which are seen in the movies and cartoons and devotes very little info to each; if it's something of particular importance it gets a few paragraphs, otherwise many entries are little more than a blurb. I didn't read much of the characters and locations section but scanned through the entries about vehicles and such, and from what little info they give out about these things many of it comes straight from the old canon. Clone rifles on high power putting .5 meter craters in ferroconcrete, AT-ATs being 22 meters tall, ISD armament including 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons, V-wings have a top air speed of 50,000+ kph, etc. Initially I was surprised when they shrunk the Death Star II down to 160km but remembered they'd released that tech manual before the big change which had done the same thing, so that was the same as well.

On the one hand it means a lot of the things we were already familiar with are likely to be the same now as they were then; on the other much of what we were familiar with was silly shit, and we're unlikely to get that changed any time soon.

[The Romulan Republic]

Did it say anything about the precious 200 gigaton turbo lasers statistic?

[Adam Reynolds]

On the one hand it means a lot of the things we were already familiar with are likely to be the same now as they were then; on the other much of what we were familiar with was silly shit, and we're unlikely to get that changed any time soon.

You can always use the same approach that we did with the old material. It is clearly written during a period of upheaval in the galaxy and is hardly accurate under SOD. Does it mention the speed issue in that the OT era fighters had listed airspeeds of around 1,000 kph while the PT era fighters had speeds listed around 50,000 kph?

How much is films vs Clone Wars/Rebels? The snippets I saw on Amazon were all from the movies, specifically the OT. I wonder if the new powers that be are trying to distance themselves from the prequels. I found this odd with regard to Battlefront as well. After the end of a six year series about the Clone Wars it was odd to me that the game doesn't feature them.

[Galvatron]

I wonder how this will be interpreted now:

“The mining firms are corrupt. They’re tied up—ownership, boards of directors—with the shipwrights that have sold the Empire on one construction project after another. Oh, it’s all being done in secret, but you can’t keep everything secret. A billion Star Destroyers isn’t enough. They’re building Super Star Destroyers, and Super Super Star Destroyers, and who knows what else!”

John Jackson Miller (2014-09-02T04:00:00+00:00). A New Dawn Star Wars (Kindle Locations 1710-1713). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

[The Romulan Republic]

A billion star destroyers? I very much doubt that's meant literally (the tone of the passage sounds fairly flippant), but if it is... ooh boy. That takes wank to a whole new level for Star Wars, doesn't it? Also, so much for the Star Trek side of the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate getting a boost from the changes to canon.

[Galvatron]

Granted, the character who said that is depicted as pretty much a crazy, tinfoil hat-wearing war vet. Then again, someone will inevitably point out that the first Death Star is, resource-wise, the equivalent to (IIRC) roughly a billion star destroyers...

[The Romulan Republic]

I figured it wasn't really something that could be taken at face value.

And I still want to know if there's any word on the 200 gigaton turbolasers.

[Adam Reynolds]

Granted, the character who said that is depicted as pretty much a crazy, tinfoil hat-wearing war vet. Then again, someone will inevitably point out that the first Death Star is, resource-wise, the equivalent to (IIRC) roughly a billion star destroyers...

It could be someone recognizing that an investment of resources of that magnitude would create that many. Obviously that person had no idea they were building the Death Star. Though assuming the first Death Star is 120 km it is only 10 million ISDs.

I wonder if the reasoning behind the Death Star was due to manpower limitations? It would also fit the fact that the groups of stormtroopers we see are small detachments rather than larger forces. The Empire might have been in power but they lacked the manpower to rule the entire galaxy without fear.

[Galvatron]

I wonder if the reasoning behind the Death Star was due to manpower limitations? It would also fit the fact that the groups of stormtroopers we see are small detachments rather than larger forces. The Empire might have been in power but they lacked the manpower to rule the entire galaxy without fear.

Unless the Emperor decided that clones were no longer useful, I don't see why we should assume that the OT Empire suddenly had a manpower shortage. If anything, I still think it's a lack of sheer firepower that restricted their domination of the galaxy to the lesser defended systems.

When Tarkin said "No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now," I inferred that he wasn't being hypothetical. I fully believe that entire star systems were openly opposing the Emperor by ANH, but were relatively safe from direct attacks by the Imperial fleet.

[RogueIce]

So I paged through this today looking at a few things and one thing has become apparent about the new Disney canon: we're going to see a lot of the old EU ported straight over with little to no alteration, at least as far as background tech stuff is concerned.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

Disappointing, but hardly surprising. At least story-wise Episode VII and beyond should force (ha ha) some changes, at least to the post-RotJ timeline. But we'll see when Aftermath lands I guess.

[Galvatron]

I wonder if anyone bothered to call Timothy Zahn and see if he wanted another crack at it. He could retell the Thrawn story with the full knowledge of what happened in the prequels (and Episode VII) which is something he lacked back in 1991.

[Adam Reynolds]

I wonder if anyone bothered to call Timothy Zahn and see if he wanted another crack at it. He could retell the Thrawn story with the full knowledge of what happened in the prequels (and Episode VII) which is something he lacked back in 1991.

Literally nothing from the Thrawn series could work with what we know about the new continuity. Jorus C'Boath would be all but impossible to feature as a character with what we now know about the Jedi Order. Ditto for Mara Jade and her redemption and romance with Luke. Thrawn himself could still arguably work, but I would argue that he would be unworkable against a full power Jedi with precog. Elaborate plans against one who can see the future are not a very good idea(unless you have the same ability).

[Galvatron]

Jorus C'Boath would be all but impossible to feature as a character with what we now know about the Jedi Order.

Why? C'baoth was still being featured as recently as the Darth Plageuis novel. What's changed about the Jedi order since then?

Ditto for Mara Jade and her redemption and romance with Luke.

They didn't even have a romance until the Hand of Thrawn duology. Mara's original backstory and her arc from the Thrawn trilogy could still work.

Thrawn himself could still arguably work, but I would argue that he would be unworkable against a full power Jedi with precog. Elaborate plans against one who can see the future are not a very good idea(unless you have the same ability).

Do we have some reason to believe that Luke is a full power Jedi with precog in this new EU any more than he was in the old one?

[Balrog]

Did it say anything about the precious 200 gigaton turbo lasers statistic?

Nope. Again the vast majority of information they gave was incredibly vague, almost like they were avoiding specifics, except those times when they do give specifics, which obviously stood out. These are not ICS or Inside the Worlds or Essential Guide details, more like brief encyclopedia entries.

On the one hand it means a lot of the things we were already familiar with are likely to be the same now as they were then; on the other much of what we were familiar with was silly shit, and we're unlikely to get that changed any time soon.

You can always use the same approach that we did with the old material. It is clearly written during a period of upheaval in the galaxy and is hardly accurate under SOD. Does it mention the speed issue in that the OT era fighters had listed airspeeds of around 1,000 kph while the PT era fighters had speeds listed around 50,000 kph?

They don't mention anything related to air speed for literally any other fighter except the V-wing, so at the moment there's nothing to reconcile with. I suppose we could take it to mean they'll update the other SW fighters to give their "true" maximum air speed at a later but I get the feeling they're just going to repeat the 1,000kph nonsense.

How much is films vs Clone Wars/Rebels? The snippets I saw on Amazon were all from the movies, specifically the OT. I wonder if the new powers that be are trying to distance themselves from the prequels. I found this odd with regard to Battlefront as well. After the end of a six year series about the Clone Wars it was odd to me that the game doesn't feature them.

It looked to be an even mix. If there was something that was mentioned or seen in both cartoons and movies, pictures from the movies took precedence, but if it only showed up in the cartoons that was the only picture obviously.

[Lord Revan]

something I liked about Force-precog in the old EU and seems to be true still is that even with fully trained jedi it's far from perfect. Sure during combat it seems near perfect if the Force user isn't distracted, how ever the further you go from "now" the harder it comes for a Force user to predict the exact path the future will take and more their own biases effect that they see (explaining why Palpatine was unable to see his fall at Endor, it seemed unthinkble to him).

As Yoda said "Difficult to see, always in motion the future is"

So something like Thrawn could work easily even against jedi as long his tactics and strategies aren't too predicble (they can be conventional if the jedi was expecting unconventional tactics).

[Adam Reynolds]

Why? C'baoth was still being featured as recently as the Darth Plageuis novel. What's changed about the Jedi order since then?

I more meant the idea of having a cloned insane Jedi not really fitting with what we currently know about Jedi. Obviously the character still existed in the pre-reboot EU.

They didn't even have a romance until the Hand of Thrawn duology. Mara's original backstory and her arc from the Thrawn trilogy could still work.

I suppose it could, but the way her character was set up was obviously intended as a love interest. That is something there is no indication of Luke having in the new movie.

Do we have some reason to believe that Luke is a full power Jedi with precog in this new EU any more than he was in the old one?

Perhaps I overstated his abilities, but full power is not necessary. Luke came up with a plan to rescue Han from Jabba that was only possible with precog. As HK-47 indicated in KOTOR2, planning to kill a Jedi is the worst possible idea when facing one.

Besides there is the obvious problem that Han and Leia's presumed daughter is named Rey/Kira rather than Jaina. Though that is a minor change: Spoiler

I get the impression that it is set up to imply that she isn't their daughter or a future Jedi. So having their daughter born in the Thrawn series wouldn't work. Not to mention that it also appears that Kylo Ren is their son, which would be an even worse spoiler.

And what we have seen from Battlefront spoilers seems to indicate that the New Republic largely defeated most of the Empire somewhat early on just after Endor. They were already refereed to as Imperial holdouts.

Fans who pre-order Star Wars Battlefront will be among the first players to experience the Battle of Jakku, the pivotal moment when the New Republic confronted key Imperial holdouts on a remote desert planet on the Outer Rim. Taking place in the aftermath of the Rebel victory in the Battle of Endor, players will experience the events that created the massive, battle-scarred landscape of Jakku shown in Star Wars: The Force Awakens.

I don't see how Thrawn's empire can possibly fit in with that.

something I liked about Force-precog in the old EU and seems to be true still is that even with fully trained jedi it's far from perfect. Sure during combat it seems near perfect if the Force user isn't distracted, how ever the further you go from "now" the harder it comes for a Force user to predict the exact path the future will take and more their own biases effect that they see (explaining why Palpatine was unable to see his fall at Endor, it seemed unthinkble to him).

As Yoda said "Difficult to see, always in motion the future is"

While it is impossible to predict every detail about the future, it appears that elaborate plans not involving Jedi or Sith making them aren't very effective when they come into the picture. The heroes at Endor only succeed when their plans all fail and they start improvising. The key details that lead to the Rebel victory were all made up on the spot. Lando's desperate tactic of point blank range space combat, Chewie's theft of an AT-ST and Han's use of said walker to open the door were not planned. Thus it was much harder to predict. Everything that the Rebels planned the Emperor predicted.

Similarly Luke himself successfully executes an extremely high risk plan against Jabba, something that all but required precog in order to pull off.

The EU has nothing to do with it, in the films it is far from perfect only when dealing with fellow Jedi or Sith. Otherwise it seems to work fine. And the EU was hardly consistent in its portrayal of Jedi and Sith. So much so that it is hard to reconcile the various depictions with each other.

So something like Thrawn could work easily even against jedi as long his tactics and strategies aren't too predicble (they can be conventional if the jedi was expecting unconventional tactics).

There is a reason that the chessmaster character in the SW films is a Force user. Without the Force, it is very difficult to plot against Jedi without them being able to see it coming on some level. Unless the Dark Side is already blocking them for you, as occurred in the Clone Wars.

Hypothetically, if the Ysalimiri still existed in the EU, Thrawn could always remain in their presence and thus be sucessful. But using kryptonite is such bad writing in general I would hate to see those return. And it ends up serving as such a cop out.

[FTeik]

I wonder how this will be interpreted now:

“The mining firms are corrupt. They’re tied up—ownership, boards of directors—with the shipwrights that have sold the Empire on one construction project after another. Oh, it’s all being done in secret, but you can’t keep everything secret. A billion Star Destroyers isn’t enough. They’re building Super Star Destroyers, and Super Super Star Destroyers, and who knows what else!”

John Jackson Miller (2014-09-02T04:00:00+00:00). A New Dawn Star Wars (Kindle Locations 1710-1713). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Qestion is, how long would it take for the empire to get a full mobilisation going. Building lots of ships is all nice and dandy with the amount of automation the major civilisations of the GFFA enjoy, but what about getting the necessery infrastructure set up and the need to educate and train the crews for your newly built ships?

[Thanas]

Where is all the wank about "no strategists could defeat a force user with precog" coming from? It is utter and total bullshit completely unsupported by any evidence. Did you all just miss the insect general from clone wars that kicked the shit out of the NR forces commanded by two Jedi? (Yes, he lost, but that was not due to tactics but rather due to Anakin being insanely good at piloting). Why was Tarkin able to outwit several Jedi masters with precog as well?

And oh wait, wasn't RotJ about a Sith master wth precog utterly being demolished by a failure to predict the future? Weren't the tactics employed by Lando and Ackbar surprising?

All this stuff about precog is as far as I am concerned wank that has no basis in fact. Nowhere do we see in the movies a Jedi/Sith precog actually deciding a battle. At best, precog seems to be limited to extremely broad terms aka the Emperor (enemy will attack at Endor giving me a chance to capture Skywalker) or to small scale fighting like fighter combat and infantry combat.

[Adam Reynolds]

Where is all the wank about "no strategists could defeat a force user with precog" coming from? It is utter and total bullshit completely unsupported by any evidence. Did you all just miss the insect general from clone wars that kicked the shit out of the NR forces commanded by two Jedi? (Yes, he lost, but that was not due to tactics but rather due to Anakin being insanely good at piloting). Why was Tarkin able to outwit several Jedi masters with precog as well?

All of these examples were during the Clone Wars when the abilities of the Jedi to see the future had been severely limited by both Sith manipulations and the darkness of the war itself. It's like bragging that you won a chess match with a grandmaster when he was drunk.

And oh wait, wasn't RotJ about a Sith master wth precog utterly being demolished by a failure to predict the future? Weren't the tactics employed by Lando and Ackbar surprising?

As I said in my previous post, it was when the heroes stopped planning that they were ultimately victorious. Clever improvising seems to be the best strategy against Force users. Elaborate plans have a much greater chance of being detected. How else do you think that the Jedi kept the peace for a millennia with a few thousand members? It was because they could sense and influence the future well enough to keep things on the right path. Though they failed to realize that the Sith were doing the same thing.

All this stuff about precog is as far as I am concerned wank that has no basis in fact. Nowhere do we see in the movies a Jedi/Sith precog actually deciding a battle. At best, precog seems to be limited to extremely broad terms aka the Emperor (enemy will attack at Endor giving me a chance to capture Skywalker) or to small scale fighting like fighter combat and infantry combat.

And nowhere in the films do we ever see Jedi without Sith to oppose them(or the inverse). Elaborate plans against those with the Force, when you lack those abilities yourself, are generally not a very good idea. And Thrawn tended to develop elaborate plans, exactly the sort that a Jedi should be able to detect. Though he was also quite good at improvising strategies on the spot, that would be somewhat more effective against a proper Jedi. That would actually be a rather interesting sequence to show, a chessmaster character who developed an elaborate plan, only to have to trash it and completely improvise when facing a Force user who could detect it.

[Elheru Aran]

Thrawn had a broken Jedi on his side, and Luke was basically the only Jedi on the Republic's side at that time. It's hardly surprising that he was able to execute his plans with minimal interference from Skywalker. Also notable is that while he actually managed to capture Luke at one point, Skywalker promptly managed to escape without much difficulty.

[Galvatron]

Adam, obviously any new Thrawn story would have to be modified to fit the new continuity. If that means Luke doesn't get his love interest and Thrawn can't dangle the Solo twins in front of C'baoth as motivation, so be it. Zahn will just have to adapt. Does that make any sense?

[Thanas]

Where is all the wank about "no strategists could defeat a force user with precog" coming from? It is utter and total bullshit completely unsupported by any evidence. Did you all just miss the insect general from clone wars that kicked the shit out of the NR forces commanded by two Jedi? (Yes, he lost, but that was not due to tactics but rather due to Anakin being insanely good at piloting). Why was Tarkin able to outwit several Jedi masters with precog as well?

All of these examples were during the Clone Wars when the abilities of the Jedi to see the future had been severely limited by both Sith manipulations and the darkness of the war itself. It's like bragging that you won a chess match with a grandmaster when he was drunk.

Oh yeah, and the fact that such a massive war was brewing was probably the biggest precog failure to boot. But hey, how about this: How about you prove that precog actually works and is not just some massively wanked up ability? Because right now, I can just shout no limits fallacy until I get blue in the face.

As I said in my previous post, it was when the heroes stopped planning that they were ultimately victorious. Clever improvising seems to be the best strategy against Force users. Elaborate plans have a much greater chance of being detected. How else do you think that the Jedi kept the peace for a millennia with a few thousand members? It was because they could sense and influence the future well enough to keep things on the right path. Though they failed to realize that the Sith were doing the same thing.

Bull-fucking-shit-wank.

If Precog would work like you describe it - aka making accurate strategic predictions - then the Emperor should have won everything. There was no force user to oppose him and he was strong enough to muddle the precog of every jedi while he was alive (which is also ridiculous unless he was a thousand times more accurate/powerful in his own precog, but amazingly consistent with the idea that precog does not exist in such detail). So given that, why the fuck do the rebels manage to score victory after victory throughout the Movies? Why does it take them several years to find the rebels on Hoth? Why does the Death Star fail? Why does the rebellion manage to grow throughout the movies?

There is no answer to that. If Precog worked as you claimed, then the Rebellion should have not enjoyed any strategic success at all. EDIT: Yet as we see in the new EU, the Empire actually struggles enormously trying to hold on.

And nowhere in the films do we ever see Jedi without Sith to oppose them(or the inverse). Elaborate plans against those with the Force, when you lack those abilities yourself, are generally not a very good idea.

Yes we do see exactly that. The Emperor is virtually unopposed by any Jedi. And yet, without the Jedi acting, he suddenly loses more and more control over the course of the movies. (Unless you want to claim that Yoda suddenly opposed him, which is nonsense, for Yoda was in hiding and utterly sucked at defeating Palpatine at precog either).

And Thrawn tended to develop elaborate plans, exactly the sort that a Jedi should be able to detect.

But nobody had a fucking clue. Not a single force user was privy to his plans. Neither the sith nor the Jedi.

[Elheru Aran]

There are some indications that the Emperor Reborn was familiar with Thrawn's plans, but as he was recovering on Byss and rebuilding his forces and pretty much out of touch with the rest of the galaxy, it didn't make much difference. The general notion is that once Thrawn had defeated the Republic, he would have contacted the Emperor for a glorious return. Something along those lines, if you can abide allowing Dark Empire into the canon...

[Galvatron]

I can't. Dark Empire was a major misstep by LFL in those days. Published DE#1 right after Heir to the Empire essentially spoiled the entire Thrawn trilogy by letting us all know that everyone would survive to fight the Emperer Reborn.

[Adam Reynolds]

Oh yeah, and the fact that such a massive war was brewing was probably the biggest precog failure to boot. But hey, how about this: How about you prove that precog actually works and is not just some massively wanked up ability? Because right now, I can just shout no limits fallacy until I get blue in the face.

The Jedi only failed to detect the creation of the Clone Army because of the Sith. Something Thrawn doesn't have. That was right in the movie. The Jedi were shocked to have not detected it, indicating that their power had weakened far more than even Yoda had suspected.

There are two factors that make Jedi precog most effective. The first is scale of events. The larger the effect on the galaxy, the larger the disturbance in the Force. The second factor is the danger to the individual Jedi or someone he or she cares about heavily. It similarly has a stronger impact on the Jedi, though in this case only to the individual.

Obviously it also has limits. The largest one being that the actions of fellow Force users negatively impact their ability to see. The second is that unplanned events are also much harder to see. If you shoot at a Jedi he will still usually see it, but events that don't directly affect him would be more likely to work. And finally it is possible for it to simply be overwhelmed*, possibly in combination with a lack of training or exhaustion. In my next post I will list a compilation of all the examples from the films(that I can remember) and my explanations as to why they fit within my characteristics.

* Though in that case it is partially due to an inability to move a lightsaber fast enough to parry every possible incoming shot.

If Precog would work like you describe it - aka making accurate strategic predictions - then the Emperor should have won everything. There was no force user to oppose him and he was strong enough to muddle the precog of every jedi while he was alive (which is also ridiculous unless he was a thousand times more accurate/powerful in his own precog, but amazingly consistent with the idea that precog does not exist in such detail). So given that, why the fuck do the rebels manage to score victory after victory throughout the Movies? Why does it take them several years to find the rebels on Hoth? Why does the Death Star fail? Why does the rebellion manage to grow throughout the movies?

The Rebellion is only really successful once Luke returns and begins using the Force. While they did steal the Death Star plans on their own, Vader was right on them and was in the process of dealing with them. It was only when Luke and Obi-Wan got involved that he was properly foiled. Similarly, above the Death Star, Vader easily recognized the problem involving the exhaust port. It's not like he did a detailed technical analysis. He simply knew there was danger.

As for finding the Rebels on Hoth, as soon as Vader has any indication of where to look, he immediately knows with certainty that Luke is there. As for the Emperor, he fell for victory disease. Unlike Yoda, who recognized the instability of his position of power, the Emperor was so confident in his ability to predict the future that he failed to ever consider that he would miss something. And that something he missed was that Luke, merely by existing, was in effect creating a shroud of the Light Side that clouded Palpatine in much the same fashion as the Dark Side had done against the Jedi. Notice that in AOTC the Jedi never realized the blindness until after an event occurred that they failed to foresee. Similarly this also occurred to the Emperor. It is no coincidence that Palpatine's plans start failing in ROTJ after he begins talking to Luke. This also occurred to Darth Vader over Yavin, he was so focused on his son, that he failed to be aware of the Falcon's appearance.

There is no answer to that. If Precog worked as you claimed, then the Rebellion should have not enjoyed any strategic success at all. EDIT: Yet as we see in the new EU, the Empire actually struggles enormously trying to hold on.

I never said that precog was an absolute power or that it always worked perfectly. Smaller incidents of unrest are much harder to see and deal with. Precog wouldn't work very well there. But a single event of galactic importance, like the increasingly complex plans of an Imperial Grand Admiral, it would be odd for a Jedi to not detect it at all.

Yes we do see exactly that. The Emperor is virtually unopposed by any Jedi. And yet, without the Jedi acting, he suddenly loses more and more control over the course of the movies. (Unless you want to claim that Yoda suddenly opposed him, which is nonsense, for Yoda was in hiding and utterly sucked at defeating Palpatine at precog either).

He was ultimately defeated by a combination of Luke and unplanned actions as I indicated above. Yoda or anyone else had nothing to do with it.

But nobody had a fucking clue. Not a single force user was privy to his plans. Neither the sith nor the Jedi.

This is true. But it is also non-canon now. My point was that it doesn't fit with what we see in higher canon. A Jedi should be able to detect such plans. Unless Thrawn was himself weakly Force sensitive.

I would love to see Zahn write Thrawn against a realistically powerful Luke, who is fully capable of seeing the future. There would be two things Thrawn could do that would be effective. The first is small actions that have limited connections and the second is a lack of significant planning when directly facing Luke. It would be playing speed chess rather than a long game. That would be extremely interesting to see.

Adam, obviously any new Thrawn story would have to be modified to fit the new continuity. If that means Luke doesn't get his love interest and Thrawn can't dangle the Solo twins in front of C'baoth as motivation, so be it. Zahn will just have to adapt. Does that make any sense?

Both of those things were fundamental to the story. Without Jaina and Jacen as targets, why would the Norghi target Leia? And without them going after Leia there would be no way for them to realize that she is Vader's daughter and work with her. And without that there is no bodyguard backstab and no way for Thrawn to die. Similarly with Mara, without a sense of attraction, the mixed emotions she felt with regard to Luke would be difficult to do well. Rewriting the stories to fit the current continuity would mean destroying almost the entire plot.