Star Trek vs Yuuzhan Vong

[Sea Skimmer]

Star Trek is screwed. However, the light speed nature of their phaser's should let them get past Vong voids with ease. Their torpedoes however are going to be useless. The phaser's might get a boost from the NDF effect vs. coral, but there still too weak to harm ships which can handle Wars multi terraton broadsides. Trek dies very fast.

[Ender]

Darkling, maybe it helps if you know their history.

Way back when, the Vong were just bronze age primitives, a race came by and decided it would be a good idea to give them this advanced biotech and the means to use it. Well the Vong did use it. They used it to conquer, shape and exterminate every single race in their galaxy. The Yuuzhan Vong ruled everything. After a while though, there were schisms in their society as to who was the supreme overlord (ala the Catholic Papal thing). A series of very destructive civil wars were the result. At the end though, they had wiped out so much of their galaxy that they had to convert all their remaining resources to build the Worldships. They then spent the next few millenia searching for a new home. Now they finally found one, one they have to conquer if they want to survive because there are too many Vong on too few old dying worldships.

There is a galaxy worth of these people, and you say there aren't enough of them?

The Number of world ships is based on an off the wall estimate as to how many it would require to move the entire populace of a galaxy. The Number of cap ships ios based on the fact that they lost 1000 ships prior to the conquest of Coruscant, and still took the place, loosing at least several hundred in the process (9 task forces worth). As to hundreds of ships weakening them, it weakens the defenses on that system, way behind enemy lines. The fact that afterwards, they are able to muster thousands of ships for attack and still hold on to their territory without fear of reprisals belies the idea that hundreds are a good size chunk of their fleet.

Now, as as to the lack of available warriors, they are trying to subdue several planets that are still resisting them. Right about the time of Rebirth, they succeed in shaping the Rodians into new troopers to handle that. That frees alot of Warriors. The Shapers are busy Preparing the World Brain and growing things in Hutt territory. The Worldships are full of warriors in training, this was mentioned in Rebirth and shown again in Rebel Dream. It takes 3 months to go through boot camp, and these guys have been taught how to fight since they were born into that caste. Most of the people on the worldships are getting ready to reinforce the fleet as soon as they are done, which should be fairly soon.

The Suicide runs were used because they saw it as a holy duty. they could just have easilt bombarded Fondor or the City ship instead of ramming them.

They are making Duros, a planet uninhabitable without a breathmask because of all the pollution habitable again. In the span of a few months they have reshaped large portions of Coruscant. They even uses chemical attacks to make the place suitable for growing (Belkadan). We have never seen their tech affected in the slightest. It won't be an issue.

I question the ability of nanoprobes to burrow through stone. When have we ever seen such a capability?

As for transporters, that should do it.

[TheDarkling]

Yes but Oxygen doesnt affect humans in a bad way yet whatever Sisko used does, whatever Editon used affects Cardies but not Humans.

You cant claim because the Vong arent affected by industrial waste they are immune to any chemical warfare.

Phasers - light speed so dovin Basals would have a hard time reacting, thats interesting because it means some phaser fire would get past them before the Dovin Basal moved to intercept, the feds need to simply scope out the dovin baslas in a small area of a cap ship kill them then hull the ship with a torp of two (or simply carve it up with a phaser).
Also couldnt the same be said for Photon torps since they can move at greater than C speeds (if the ship firing them is at warp).


The Vong seem made to be a SF villian simply because they use tricks instead of brute force.

I also had a thought on ground combat, if the personal force fields act like worf shield but more stable then will Vong KE weapons be able to hurt the Feds at all?
If not then the Vong are going to have problems on the ground against Fed ground forces.

The Vong are going to take some heavy hits against SF and SF will eventually find the wormhole and plug it, once thats done the Vong invasion will be finished with ease - its a shame the Feds wont cross over and save the SW universe from its fate but thems the breaks I guess.

The suicide runs were seen as a good thing due to their views on death but standing around hulling the ship yard would have take longer than the ramming because the Vong were trying to get the Job done before the NR arrived (since they had tricked them into thinking the battle would happen at CenterPoint).

How much of their galaxy's population survived the exodus and the following search for a new home?

At the point I am talking about their were over stretched and every able bodied Vong was off fighting, did they get a second wave of worldships? because I seem to remember that being aluded to.

[Master of Ossus]

The YV are not immune to chemical warfare, but they have a number of countermeasures available to them. They can neutralize most toxins with their critters, or they can use other critters to move around in a contaminated environment.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: I stated the Vong would come up with a creature that could prevent or remove the toxin however it could be used to hurt the vong once or twice before they got wise to it.

I forgot to mention we see nanites eat computer core thus I think they should be capable of eating rock and thus getting inside vong ships.

The Feds could use.
Transporters as distraction or to beam weapons onto enemy ships.
Bombs to wipe out massive numbers of fighters.
FTL weapons - ie Torps to evade Dovin Basals.
Phasers would also elude Dovin Basals for a fraction of each shot.
Nanite weapons (this would also make a great terror weapon since the thought of small machines invading a Vongs body will scare the hell out of them).
Chemical weapons.
Biological weapons.
Metagenics weapon - unravels DNA and can travel from planet to planet using subspace (very dangerous and would only be used once the Feds were all but dead) Ref Chain of Command please correct if I am wrong its been a while since I watched the episode, this would also take developement since this area isnt very well known.
Gravity Manipulation (Anti Gravity tech inertial Dampeners etc) to cancel out Dovin Basals.

On the ground the Feds are weaker but still have an ace or two.
Transporters could be used as weapons platforms, beaming Photon granades, big bombs etc.
Personal Force fields may protect against KE weapons thus hurting the vong offensive capacity greatly.
Phasers may be of limited use against Vong Crab armour since they are high density, repeated shots may be able to hurt the vong however.

The Vongs advantages are mainly in the area of FTL drive and weapon power (this maybe offset by range disadvantages however).
They also havea good ability to produce ships however they are heavily outnumbered bye the Milky way race, they would not engae these races combined however so they fast ship building may allow them to eventually overcome this disadvantage.

The above makes it clear that the vong are going to take heavy loses and will only be able to win by using their FTL to avoid large Fed fleets but this will mean that attacking important planets will be differcult and holding planets would force them to engage in battle.

[consequences]

Okay, so the feds are going to deploy biological weapons against an enemy whose technology is entirely based through biology, who have deployed organisms that have completely baffled New Republic medical science, and fucked up high level Jedi. The Feds are completely taken by surprise by every disease of the week, and one that doesn't give them the time to technobabble up a cure will kill them all.

[Master of Ossus]

Darkling you appear to be claiming that a few victories would be all the UFP would need to defeat the YV by saying that chemical weapons would be important, but then saying that the YV would be able to adapt to them only after a few uses. You ignore the defeats the NR has inflicted upon the YV, and that they failed to turn the tide (or, really, make any apparent dent in the YV advance, other than to slow it down). Clearly it takes several decisive victories to stop the YV.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: I dont think chemical weapons would win the war I just thinkn it would prevent a planet or two from falling, it wouldnt been the feds main weapon I just said they could deploy such a weapon.

As biological weapons the feds seem to have a better understanding biology than the NR who do seeem over reliant on bacta, the Feds as you say come across new disease all the time and have amazing scanners etc.

Again a biological weapon wouldnt last long agasint the Vong before they managed to overcome it but it is another weapon the feds could use to trump them on occasion.

The feds main advantagei s their range and the fact that weapons at or above C would strike hull before Dovin basals react.
Transporters may work as a weapon or as a distraction either is ok.

The Vongs biggest advantage is their FTL if the milky way races had that sort of speed I would back them to actually defeat the vong at home (quick strikes against ship wombs with either huge explosives or NanoWeapons) however since the Feds lack in the FTL area badly it would fall to the feds to locate and destroy the wormhole.
The vong dont fear death but if they had a chance of being infected with small robots when they entered battle they would be afraid that coupled with a few big victories and tjhe vong would rethink the invasion idea.

The Imps would have defeated the Vong with because they could brute forces them (and shockingly maybe even attack them - take notes NR) and the Feds would be able to prevent being over run because when it comes to technobabble and weird ships they are kings.

[SirNitram]

Phasers are lightspeed? When, prey tell, did we throw out all of the visuals where we can clearly see the beam propagating?

[TheDarkling]

Photon Torps are greater than C so it doesnt really matter I suppose althuogh I was going off the TM and havent really looked into Phasers per debates.

However Phasers can be fired at warp so thats a possibility of getting Phasers at FTL speeds even if they arent upto C normally.

[SirNitram]

Photon Torps are greater than C so it doesnt really matter I suppose althuogh I was going off the TM and havent really looked into Phasers per debates.

However Phasers can be fired at warp so thats a possibility of getting Phasers at FTL speeds even if they arent upto C normally.

Really, Darkling, I never expected you to pull such total nonsense.

Photon torpedos can be fired at FTL speeds. They have no internal warp drive, however, so they cannot acheive speeds greater than C alone.

Phasers move at less than C. How do I know? I see them propagate across the distances.

And while they can be fired from an FTL platform, that does not mean they can be used to warp strafe, or that their speed is such to be considered a problem for the Vong.

A minor hint: Check the stated speeds for TL propagation in NJO.

[TheDarkling]

I realise torps dont have FTL capability of their own but they do sustain FTL ability once fired from a ship at warp.

Phasers can also move FTL if fired from a vessel at warp (two vessels at warp and the phaser must also be moving at FTL speeds in realtion to ships not at warp).

What is the stated propagation speed for a tl?

[SirNitram]

I realise torps dont have FTL capability of their own but they do sustain FTL ability once fired from a ship at warp.

Phasers can also move FTL if fired from a vessel at warp (two vessels at warp and the phaser must also be moving at FTL speeds in realtion to ships not at warp).

What is the stated propagation speed for a tl?

I know the first two.. That's vector math. I was referring to you claiming Phasers propagate at C normally(They don't), and the flat statement of Torpedos going faster than C, without the needed note that that only occours if fired from a FTL platform.

The third? Repeatedly stated that by the NJO era, Tuborlasers travel at lightspeed. Yet Dovin Basals still block them.

[TheDarkling]

Well in Ruin the TL's are seen as bolts flying between the cap ships which wouldnt happen at such close distances if the ships were firing at C especially, in fact the admiral vissual watches the bolts levae his guns and then enter the vong voids.

Its very odd hmmm.

[SirNitram]

Well in Ruin the TL's are seen as bolts flying between the cap ships which wouldnt happen at such close distances if the ships were firing at C especially, in fact the admiral vissual watches the bolts levae his guns and then enter the vong voids.

Its very odd hmmm.

Different propagation speeds are the only answer, and that is backed up by Canon(The Ion Bolt from Hoth definately goes faster than the bolts used against capships in Endor). And of course, there's the Pipefighter ruse...

[Master of Ossus]

Master of Ossus: I dont think chemical weapons would win the war I just thinkn it would prevent a planet or two from falling, it wouldnt been the feds main weapon I just said they could deploy such a weapon.

More likely they would delay the inevitable. But the point is well taken. It is possible it would turn away attacks on crucial locations.

As biological weapons the feds seem to have a better understanding biology than the NR who do seeem over reliant on bacta, the Feds as you say come across new disease all the time and have amazing scanners etc.

I don't think I said that, but it's true so I won't disagree with it.

Again a biological weapon wouldnt last long agasint the Vong before they managed to overcome it but it is another weapon the feds could use to trump them on occasion.

The feds main advantagei s their range and the fact that weapons at or above C would strike hull before Dovin basals react.
Transporters may work as a weapon or as a distraction either is ok.

Dovin basals stop laser cannon fire, which has an invisible portion that travels at c. Since the weapons are said to be stopped, to me this indicates that the invisible portion is also stopped, as that is part (at least) of the damage that a laser cannon delivers.

The Vongs biggest advantage is their FTL if the milky way races had that sort of speed I would back them to actually defeat the vong at home (quick strikes against ship wombs with either huge explosives or NanoWeapons) however since the Feds lack in the FTL area badly it would fall to the feds to locate and destroy the wormhole.
The vong dont fear death but if they had a chance of being infected with small robots when they entered battle they would be afraid that coupled with a few big victories and tjhe vong would rethink the invasion idea.

More likely it would just make them angry that they were being defiled. You are correct, fear of defilation is a powerful psychological tool, though I am not sure how effective such a tactic would be against the religious zealots of the YV. Also, I think that their biggest advantage is their numbers and their firepower.

The Imps would have defeated the Vong with because they could brute forces them (and shockingly maybe even attack them - take notes NR) and the Feds would be able to prevent being over run because when it comes to technobabble and weird ships they
are kings.

Technobabble and weird ships will not allow for victory in all circumstances. It appears as if the YV shapers are not very dumb (ref. Conquest), and so I don't think that their ships have exploitable weaknesses, like the Empire's did (ref. DSI). They appear to be slightly weaker than their NR counterparts, but that is because their firepower and shields are weaker and not because of any design flaws. Also remember that the UFP has never turned back any enemy with anywhere NEAR the numbers that the YV have. If the YV just rammed the UFP's ships, they would eventually win because they have vastly more ships than the UFP does.

[TheDarkling]

Master of Ossus: The feds dont have to defeat the entire lot of the Vong simply hold off a wave or two before they destroy the wormhole (since it was a fed ship that fell into the wormhole it shouldnt take long).
They then have to mop up the remaining Vong.

Now as for the TL's traveling at C I have discusse dthat above but I would point out that the not so super NR super weapon actually got past the Vongs Dovin Basal and that traveled from outside the system at c , the worldship eventually got a void up but not straight away showing that a weapon moving fast enough can defeat dovin basals with ease, at least for a second or so which is the amount of time it takes a dovin basla to activate after the hull is hit.
Now a Photon torp wouild impact a hull and blow it wide open in 1 second, a phaser would likely only cut the hull open which would heal fast but multiple hits like that and the feds will eventually hit dovin basals and once they go then the ship goes.

In conclusion warp strafing maybe the order of the day and the smaller fed ships (fighters and run abouts) would be the best ships for the job but hiting a ship the size of a SSD shouldnt be that differcult.

Another advantage the feds wuld have is that they would have a good shot at reversing Vong shaping of Fed races given enough time after the Vong had been pushed back.

[Darth Yoshi]

Where exactly is the wormhole? depending on how far it is from the UFP proper, the Feddies may not get the chance to reach the wormhole.

[TheDarkling]

It cant be that far away since a fed ship finds it, it should be within a few month's range at most.

The vong are going to take a lot of damage anyway since their "shields" dont seem likely to function against fed weapons when they are fired from warp and the other special weapons the feds could use would simply be icing on the cake.

As for Vong skippers they are just so much wasted coral if the feds use area effect torps or bombs.

Ground combat could swing against the vong in a bad way but their ground combat "vehicles" could cause the feds problems (mining might be a good idea).

If the Vong could somehow keep the wormhole open eventual numbers may overwhelm the AQ powers but the Vong are in for a fight that wil make defeating the NR look like the cake walk.... which I guess it was.

[Master of Ossus]

You use a single example of a weapon propogating at c against a target that thought itself COMPLETELY safe and likely a VERY old ship, with aging and antiquated systems to disprove the countless examples of turbolaser and laser fire that have been absorbed by DB's in the past?

Now, remember that the YV usually protect critical areas VERY heavily. I find it dubious that the UFP could defeat a YV group defending a wormhole. Remember that, at the least, the YV will have enough resources there to defeat an ISD. That mandates hundreds and PERHAPS thousands of UFP ships spent in a single attack. During the earliest stages of a conflict, I doubt that the Federation would be able to muster that many ships quickly enough to destroy the wormhole before additional YV forces arrive.

I don't especially care if the UFP could reverse Vong shaping of their planets, but I think that they could, given sufficient time. The problem for the Federation, though, is not whether or not they would be able to repair the YV damage after they had won, but winning in the first place. I don't think they could turn back the YV advance.

You also talk about warp strafing, yet again. Please demonstrate that it is possible.

[starfury]

You use a single example of a weapon propogating at c against a target that thought itself COMPLETELY safe and likely a VERY old ship, with aging and antiquated systems to disprove the countless examples of turbolaser and laser fire that have been absorbed by DB's in the past?

Ossus I never knew anybody would bring up the myth of warp strafing again, MW has repeatly shown that federation ships can't do it, the torps and phasers do NOT go at C, all the visual evidence supports this.

I don't really know much about the Vong, but anybody able to defeat NR/imperial ships should have heavy defenses and weapons.

they do have a numerial advantage over the new republic

[Master of Ossus]

It's also, really, more or less a common sense issue. If the warp strafe was possible, the Picard Maneuver would be really stupid.

[TheDarkling]

Torps can be fired from warp we have seen this many times what is there to prove? we have also seen phaser fire at warp.

We have also seen warp strafing in TOS on many occassions unless you are about to tell me the feds somehow lost this ability (and so did everyone else).

As for the wormhole fed ships simply rush the wormhole and fire off torps against it once inside

Think about it, If Dovin basals cant stop torps then they are all but defenceless - it isnt an ideal situation for the federation but it will do.

We also know that they cant cover the entire ship with voids for too long without the Dovin Basals getting over worked so enough phasers against a cap ship overtime will wear it down and because the Feds have a range advantage they just hold off until the vong die.

The vonig could of course jump but that requires them to drop shields so by the time they arrive they would have taken hull damage and put more work on the Dovin basals, they then have a chance to hurt some SF ships but they could simlpy run and repeat.

If the war dragged on eventually Nano weapons and anti gravity tech would be brought out further hurting the Vong, ground combat would become a pain (nanoweapon phaser rifles anyone?).

It would be much more differcult for the Vong to take down the milky way guys than it was for the NR since the government of the NR did most of the work for the Vong.

[Darth Yoshi]

Darkling, if they could still warp strafe effectively, then why don't they? Either they can't, or they're too stupid to use the tactic. Either way, they lose.

[Master of Ossus]

You need to prove that torpedoes can be fired from a ship moving at warp against a ship that is not at warp (and travelling in roughly the same direction).

You need to prove that the YV cannot maintain some shields while jumping, even though they clearly use hyperspace in one manner or another. You need to prove that the Federation has the ability to rush the wormhole. You need to prove that the DB would not be able to stop torpedoes.

Further, who cares if the Federation fleet is able to hold out almost indefinitely against the YV fleet? The Federation fleet is useless if it cannot protect planets, and if it abandoned the planets anyway then the YV would eventually be able to win the war.

And are you seriously saying that the AQ is less fractious than the NR? The NR runs a Galaxy under a single government (albeit a dysfunctional one). The AQ is split into litterally dozens, and perhaps thousands, of small governments. Also, many of them have exceptionally poor relations with each other. There is no evidence that the NR had civil wars, but the AQ has had a multitude of internal conflicts.