Ex-Nazi bookeeper charged [Update: Convicted and sentenced]

[Simon_Jester]

The main issue here is the question, when is it right to hold a war crimes trial for someone seventy years after the fact?

That is totally separate from the question of "when should we punish racist policemen who kill people" or "so, what about gay rights?"

[Channel72]

It's also about taking into account the psychological effects of absorbing massive amounts of propaganda at a young age. The people in this thread clamoring for this guy's head on a platter likely never grew up in a world where all of society - including all adult authority figures (parents, teachers, etc.) - were basically insane. If I was 12 years old and literally everyone - my parents/teachers/leaders - was telling me that Jews are horrible and need to die, I might very well have believed it.

I mean seriously, an entire generation of young Germans fell for Hitler's bullshit. What the fuck makes anyone here think that they personally would have known any better if they grew up in Nazi Germany?

As for Gröning getting all "riled up" by militaristic paraphernalia - who cares? A lot of people are prone to excitable nationalism; it's a common human foible.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It's also about taking into account the psychological effects of absorbing massive amounts of propaganda at a young age. The people in this thread clamoring for this guy's head on a platter likely never grew up in a world where all of society - including all adult authority figures (parents, teachers, etc.) - were basically insane. If I was 12 years old and literally everyone - my parents/teachers/leaders - was telling me that Jews are horrible and need to die, I might very well have believed it.

I mean seriously, an entire generation of young Germans fell for Hitler's bullshit. What the fuck makes anyone here think that they personally would have known any better if they grew up in Nazi Germany?

As for Gröning getting all "riled up" by militaristic paraphernalia - who cares? A lot of people are prone to excitable nationalism; it's a common human foible.

It is also deeply ingrained. He got out of the proverbial cult, but he never got professionally deprogrammed (in fact the techniques necessary to do that were not perfected until IIRC after the Korean War). A lot of the conditioning (Operand and Classical) is still there and while he has since rejected the ideology of the cult, there is going to be some residual shit.

An old friend of mine (basically my Science Opa) is a german entomologist who was born in 1936. His dad was an officer in the Wehrmacht. He spent the first decade of his life in Nazi indoctrination. It would not shock me he reflexively started singing along to Nazi childrens music before self-correcting were it ever to be played in his presence, and I am pretty sure he stays the fuck away from the History channel for personal reasons rather than historical accuracy compunctions.

[Thanas]

I wouldn't assume such things, given that there are other people whose families were career Wehrmacht (officer in the most elite western division, in my case) and where the people involved did not do any of the things, not even when they were dying.

[Alferd Packer]

It's also about taking into account the psychological effects of absorbing massive amounts of propaganda at a young age. The people in this thread clamoring for this guy's head on a platter likely never grew up in a world where all of society - including all adult authority figures (parents, teachers, etc.) - were basically insane. If I was 12 years old and literally everyone - my parents/teachers/leaders - was telling me that Jews are horrible and need to die, I might very well have believed it

That doesn't absolve someone of the consequences of their actions, or the choices they made. A sheltered fundamentalist Christian, who grows up with essentially everyone he knows telling him that abortion providers murder babies by the thousands, will still go to jail for the rest of his life if he decides to shoot a doctor who performs them, or is part of a conspiracy which successfully firebombs a clinic. He didn't have a choice; he simply happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time, and lacked the incredible personal strength required to overcome his indoctrination. He still has to pay the price for his actions.

So too is it with this Nazi. It's one thing if he was indoctrinated as kid, but remained a civilian--there's nothing to prosecute. It's quite another thing to volunteer for service and play an active role in the Holocaust. His actions determined the consequences he must face. We don't need to put his head on a pike; we merely need to determine what consequences, if any, he must suffer for the role he played.

[TheHammer]

This is just disgusting to me. We have fuckers defending a system full of racist cops in one thread and other fuckers defending an actual fucking SS Nazi who worked at Auschwitz in here! What the fuck happened to this place?!

Probably because they aren't fucking ideologues who see the world in black and white as you do. There are often many varying shades of grey and its important to recognize the differences between the actions of various individuals within a group rather than to ascribe guilt by association.

[Flagg]

This is just disgusting to me. We have fuckers defending a system full of racist cops in one thread and other fuckers defending an actual fucking SS Nazi who worked at Auschwitz in here! What the fuck happened to this place?!

Probably because they aren't fucking ideologues who see the world in black and white as you do. There are often many varying shades of grey and its important to recognize the differences between the actions of various individuals within a group rather than to ascribe guilt by association.

There is plenty of grey in the world, it's the people who cannot or outright refuse to see the black and white that are the problem. No one got forced into the SS. You had to apply, going so far as to prove through a number of generations that you were of pure Aryan stock. It wasn't the easiest fucking thing to do. The fact that he was SS working at the most notorious death camp the Nazi's fucking ran means he should be held accountable. And I'm being a lot more reasonable and kind in my suggestion for punishment (keeping him in a comfortable place close to his family with the best medical care he can get in average EU penal system) than I'm sure he would have been to any Jew who crossed his path with his SS buddies surrounding him since such men are cowards and can only act in groups. Some things are just evil and no amount of excuses the people who are suddenly against even the mildest legal ramifications for individuals that took part in Genocide can change that.

[TheHammer]

This is just disgusting to me. We have fuckers defending a system full of racist cops in one thread and other fuckers defending an actual fucking SS Nazi who worked at Auschwitz in here! What the fuck happened to this place?!

Probably because they aren't fucking ideologues who see the world in black and white as you do. There are often many varying shades of grey and its important to recognize the differences between the actions of various individuals within a group rather than to ascribe guilt by association.

There is plenty of grey in the world, it's the people who cannot or outright refuse to see the black and white that are the problem. No one got forced into the SS. You had to apply, going so far as to prove through a number of generations that you were of pure Aryan stock. It wasn't the easiest fucking thing to do. The fact that he was SS working at the most notorious death camp the Nazi's fucking ran means he should be held accountable. And I'm being a lot more reasonable and kind in my suggestion for punishment (keeping him in a comfortable place close to his family with the best medical care he can get in average EU penal system) than I'm sure he would have been to any Jew who crossed his path with his SS buddies surrounding him since such men are cowards and can only act in groups. Some things are just evil and no amount of excuses the people who are suddenly against even the mildest legal ramifications for individuals that took part in Genocide can change that.

He admits he voluntarily joined the SS. A decision made because he had been indoctrinated since youth to believe that this organization represented "the best of Germany". It makes perfect sense that someone raised as he was would be drawn to that idea and sign up to, in his view serve his country. Its not at all clear that he understood what joining would entail, or that he would be asked to commit genocide. Your hypothetical about what this particular man would do if his "path crossed with a Jew while surrounded by SS buddies" has absolutely no supporting evidence whatsoever.

He did not volunteer to go to Auschwitz he was ordered to go by his superiors. While joining may have been voluntary, remaining once joined was compulsory, as was obeying orders. Indications are he did not know what his task was to be, or what the camp's purpose was prior to his arrival. He worked there, but he took no part in the killings, had no power to change what was happening, and no legal way to leave. It was only while at Auschwitz that he truly realized what the organization he belonged to was doing. Even so, what could he do in his position? Do a shitty job of accounting? Its not as though anything he did was going to change what was going on there.

What power he did have was to request transfer, something he did twice with the second one being granted. That should be rather telling that he requested to be transferred to a military front, rather than to keep the relatively cushy accounting job at Auschwitz. Its clear he did not want to be there. Further it seems he has taken it upon himself to expose the horrors at Auschwitz and counter holocaust deniers. Quite frankly, if not for his own admission at having been there, it seems highly that fact would never have been discovered.

So he's guilty of what exactly? Being assigned to Auschwitz? There is no evidence he ever harmed a single Jew in any way but lets tag him with 300,000 accessory accounts to murder because he must be held accountable. So if he had received the material in Berlin, rather be the one tasked with sending it from Auschwitz, he's not guilty right? It is essentially the same job, but because Gröning had the misfortune of where he was assigned he's guilty of being an accessory to murder? Makes perfect sense... But why should we stop there?

Lets really have ourselves a witch hunt! Find the people in Berlin who received those shipments and put them on trial as well, and then grab any other link in the chain - anyone who ever touched any of the material from Auschwitz. There were surely some low level laborers who loaded and unloaded the trains, and train operators who transported the goods. Further, they could never have shipped those goods by rail without the railroad, so we need to find out who built that railroad and haul them to court as well. Don't forget about the guys who made the trains and train cars - GUILTY! And they probably mentioned these acts to their wives who are all guilty of association because they chose to marry the people who committed those crimes - no one forced them to. I could go on all day...

[K. A. Pital]

Its not at all clear that he understood what joining would entail, or that he would be asked to commit genocide.

"When the blood of Jews drips from our knives, all will be good again" is a pretty good indication of what joining the SS would entail, idiot. Volunteering for the SS was, in the eyes of the Nurnberg tribunal, already grounds to consider criminality, as the scope of its criminal activities was too wide to conceal and its very doctrine too criminal not to understand this.

You, of course, are a fucking torture and murder apologist who excuses every nationalist scumbag that would want to 'serve his country', then be ordered by superiors to take part in genocide and follow the orders. So what you say here is just another indication of what you really are.

[TheHammer]

Its not at all clear that he understood what joining would entail, or that he would be asked to commit genocide.

"When the blood of Jews drips from our knives, all will be good again" is a pretty good indication of what joining the SS would entail, idiot. Volunteering for the SS was, in the eyes of the Nurnberg tribunal, already grounds to consider criminality, as the scope of its criminal activities was too wide to conceal and its very doctrine too criminal not to understand this.

You, of course, are a fucking torture and murder apologist who excuses every nationalist scumbag that would want to 'serve his country', then be ordered by superiors to take part in genocide and follow the orders. So what you say here is just another indication of what you really are.

LOL really? We are going to song lyrics as evidence? Change "Jew" to "Americans" and I suspect you'd probably have sung that song yourself. And I shudder to think what people would think of me if I were judged on the rap songs I sung as a kid in the 90s.

And since when is something considered an indisputable fact just because it was decided by a court? Poor attempt to appeal to authority.

I'm looking at the facts of this situation: Gronig's actions were not at all necessary to enable the genocide at Auschwitz to take place. The Jews that were stripped of their possessions could just as easily have been kept alive as prisoners and Gronig's task would have been the same. Likewise, had no one performed Gronig's task, those possessions could have just as easily been tossed aside while the killings continued. Had he performed these same tasks at any site that was not Auschwitz then these charges are never brought. You are essentially seeking to have him be declared guilty by proximity - a proximity that he himself had attempted on more than one occasion to change. If you can't see how fucking stupid that is, then there is no hope for you.

And I'm a torture and murder apologist eh? Go fuck yourself Stas. Based on your distortion of my positions its clear to me you are quite the amateur propagandist yourself. Following in the foot steps of Goebbels?

[Channel72]

"When the blood of Jews drips from our knives, all will be good again" is a pretty good indication of what joining the SS would entail, idiot. Volunteering for the SS was, in the eyes of the Nurnberg tribunal, already grounds to consider criminality, as the scope of its criminal activities was too wide to conceal and its very doctrine too criminal not to understand this.

Look, nobody - least of all me - is going to defend Groning's insane, anti-Semitic beliefs which he held as a young adult during Nazi Germany.

But the available evidence seems to indicate he didn't actually kill anybody, nor did he directly operate the Auschwitz murder apparatus - he merely kept records of stolen goods. Your argument is that merely being a member of the SS is damning - and I totally agree - except there's a thing called mitigating circumstances, you know. I'm inclined to give him a pass here because (1) throughout his later life he went out of his way to speak out against Holocaust deniers and apologize for being involved, rather than just quietly retiring somewhere like most ex-Nazis, and (2) holding outrageously horrible beliefs is not, in itself, a crime, and is even remotely understandable given the propaganda he was exposed to at a young age.

[K. A. Pital]

We are going to song lyrics as evidence?

These are not ordinary rap songs, you idiot: this is the song that was sung by SS and SA. Surely you must understand that when PSY sings "Kill those Yankees torturing Iraqi captives", he is not singing it as a member of South Korea's SS... in contrast to the person which is the subject of this thread.

And since when is something considered an indisputable fact just because it was decided by a court? Poor attempt to appeal to authority.

If you sing some racist songs in your free time, that's only your problem. If you sing rascist songs as a member of a criminal genocidal organization, whose only purpose was racial purity and genocide? Hmm. It seems as if you understand very well what the organization which you join wants to do.

But the available evidence seems to indicate he didn't actually kill anybody

That is a good argument, but TheMoron said that he joined the SS voluntarily without understanding what this means. This piece of shit argument has already been torn to shreds, and yet he is still advancing it here. He didn't understand that joining the SS meant racial war for purity of the master race? Surely if he wanted only to fight, there was also the Wehrmacht, no? The SS was a rather special organization in the Third Reich.

So fucking special was the SS, that it was declared criminal in entirety by the tribunal, and with very good grounds to do so, only allowing for exceptions in case of ceremonial riders and helpless war-end conscripts.

So please. A citizen of Nazi Germany could, theoretically, be unaware. An ordinary member of the German Army could be unaware. A voluntary member of the SS? Unaware? You got to be fucking kidding.

I'm inclined to give him a pass here because (1) throughout his later life he went out of his way to speak out against Holocaust deniers and apologize for being involved, rather than just quietly retiring somewhere like most ex-Nazis, and (2) holding outrageously horrible beliefs is not, in itself, a crime, and is even remotely understandable given the propaganda he was exposed to at a young age.

I have already considered these as mitigating circumstances several posts ago. However, does it mean he should get a free pass? No. There's a trial? Let there be a trial. Why? Because it's a good opportunity to question whether 'banality of evil' could also mean the banality of punishing evil, whether you get a free pass just for being apparently insignificant and 'just following orders'... or not.

[ArmorPierce]

My issue is either charge everyone who were 'just following orders' or don't do it at all. All too often the victors state that it doesn't matter if you were just following orders but don't use the same standard on themselves.

[Titan Uranus]

My issue is either charge everyone who were 'just following orders' or don't do it at all. All too often the victors state that it doesn't matter if you were just following orders but don't use the same standard on themselves.

We didn't even really enforce it on Germany. The truth is that while it would be nice if we could punish everyone who committed war crimes under orders or without them, if we had actually done that we would have had to execute millions of young men. Any government which proposed that would fall the moment they attempted to carry the executions out.

[Simon_Jester]

As I understand it...

The "just following orders" defense usually failed when applied to people who had actual authority and standing to make a decision that would impact the situation. Or to people who personally took direct action leading to deaths. You can't "just follow orders" to shoot babies without showing a depraved indifference to human life. You can't "just follow orders" to run a concentration camp, because that requires your active cooperation and consent, not just your passive obedience..

It is not so clear that this fully generalizes. When talking about Nazi Germany, we're dealing with a society where the entire machinery of the state was privy to one sort of war crime or another because the entire country was mobilized for a criminally aggressive, racist, and murderous war. So it becomes questionable whether everyone in the society had a measure of volition, of actual freedom to refuse, that would deny them the "just following orders" defense.

I mean, indirectly the German postal service contributed to the atrocities; that doesn't mean the postmen should be tried and imprisoned for war crimes. And if they were tried, the "just following orders and doing normal things" defense would be pretty strong in their case.
____________________________________

This guy is in an intermediate case. He was pretty clearly a dedicated and committed Nazi. The key questions are:
-Did he back off from Nazi beliefs after the war?
-Has he shown throughout the many decades of his life a satisfactory degree of repentance?
-Is there any compelling reason why the state is only now pursuing him, that justifies doing so seventy years after the fact and not, for instance, fifty years after the fact?

[K. A. Pital]

It is true that the entire nation was in some ways involved in the atrocities, however, the SS was a separate branch that existed to execute the atrocities. It is not something that would have anyway existed, as the German post would. The post exists to send letters; its use to send criminal orders is not reflecting on the nature of the post service itself. The SS existed to install and enforce the Nazi regime and to carry out genocide. It was, as many say, a state within a state. That's not the same as the post.

[Flagg]

This guy is 93, meaning he was born in 1922. Hitler rose to power in 1933, when he's 10 or 11. He was likely 17 when the war broke out and IIRC the age of entrance to the SS was 16 or 18. So he had plenty of time as not a Nazi to know whether or not he wanted to be a Nazi, a central tenet of which was the whole "kill all Jews" thing. I'll admit there was plenty of time for indoctrination, but there were plenty of SS guards at Death Camps just like Auschwitz who were his age (22 or 23) when the war ended and got executed for it.

Why shouldn't he at least be imprisoned for the rest of his life? As some reward for being able to hide what he did during WW2 for 70 years? Is that a thing now? I mean if you want to be really honest he already is being rewarded because Europe won't execute him, so he spared himself that fate while he gained another 7 decades of freedom. I hardly think that putting him up in a cushy cell with medical treatment available and put as close as possible to his family (what I think should happen) is nearly as harsh as what a Russian soldier probably would have done on the spot.

[Thanas]

Flagg, now you are just spouting nonsense about the facts of the case.

[K. A. Pital]

He was not hiding; I think he never got inquired into not due to his age but precisely due to his role as a bookkeeper only. Age was not relevant for such trials. Essentially, though, only the top "SS clerks" were usually judged (e.g. in the WVHA trial), the lower administrative personnel often managed to escape prosecution.

Of course, not always:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Schr%C3%B6der

So, like I said before, volunteer for SS and work at Auschwitz? Then don't wonder when there is a trial.

[Flagg]

Flagg, now you are just spouting nonsense about the facts of the case.

Fuck, I just read a 7th article on it last night, but I go back and it's totally different. Then I forget I withdrew money from my account 2 days ago. Fuck. I'm sorry. There's some medicine interactions going on I don't know what is reacting with what, but I'm sorry. I won't participate in serious conversation. I'm so fucking embarrassed and ashamed. I sincerely apologize to anyone I insulted or took a cross tone with as well as concede to everything I said or think I said.

[Simon_Jester]

It is true that the entire nation was in some ways involved in the atrocities, however, the SS was a separate branch that existed to execute the atrocities. It is not something that would have anyway existed, as the German post would. The post exists to send letters; its use to send criminal orders is not reflecting on the nature of the post service itself. The SS existed to install and enforce the Nazi regime and to carry out genocide. It was, as many say, a state within a state. That's not the same as the post.

I didn't say anything intended to contradict this.

But perhaps I made my argument incomplete with the effect that it sounds disingenuous.

To be more clear:

There is a continuum of responsibility for WWII German atrocities. At one end you have, say, postal workers: people who did do things that played a role in making atrocity happen, but who had no particular 'criminal intent' of making them happen, and who were doing things that are harmless in and of themselves. Postmen were literally just doing a normal job that would have happened anyway, and one cannot reasonably argue that they had a duty to resist the Holocaust by, say, refusing to deliver the SS's mail.

At the other end of the scale you have, say, Adolf Eichmann, who claimed to be just following orders, but who obviously took a lot of deliberate decisions of his own free will in order to make mass deaths and atrocities take place. He may have thought he was somehow not responsible for his actions simply because he did them in accordance with the will of another... but he played far too major a role, far too actively and consciously, to use that defense.

The SS men who shot Jews en masse are obviously on Eichmann's side of the line- because you cannot reasonably interpret an order to murder innocents, in cold blood, repeatedly, as being sufficient justification.

The munitions workers who made the bullets used in those mass murders... they are pretty clearly on the postal workers' side of the line. Even if they had some degree of awareness that the bullets they made would be used for evil purposes, they were separated by a wide gap from the evils themselves.

The low-level clerks and functionaries of the SS who were not actively involved in murders, but who were part of the machine that carried the murders out, tend to straddle the line.

[TheHammer]

We are going to song lyrics as evidence?

These are not ordinary rap songs, you idiot: this is the song that was sung by SS and SA. Surely you must understand that when PSY sings "Kill those Yankees torturing Iraqi captives", he is not singing it as a member of South Korea's SS... in contrast to the person which is the subject of this thread.

Again, very fucking weak.

And since when is something considered an indisputable fact just because it was decided by a court? Poor attempt to appeal to authority.

If you sing some racist songs in your free time, that's only your problem. If you sing rascist songs as a member of a criminal genocidal organization, whose only purpose was racial purity and genocide? Hmm. It seems as if you understand very well what the organization which you join wants to do.

Gronig's statements and actions before, during, and after indicate that "genocide" isn't why he joined. Further, his actions indicate that once he truly realized what the organization was doing he did not want to participate and did what was within his power to get away from it. You're insistence to the contrary is not backed by facts.

And again, Just because the tribunal declared something to be true doesn't mean that it is. It's not as though the tribunal was completely fair and impartial. If you don't think the fact that the victorious side showed elements of bias then you are delusional. That is certainly understandable, as the crimes of the SS were horrible. But given the infamous Nazi propaganda apparatus, the presumption that "Everyone know what they were up to and knew what they signed up for" doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Also I love how you cherry picked a few quotes and ducked the main point and context of my post so I'll place it here fore you again:

I'm looking at the facts of this situation: Gronig's actions were not at all necessary to enable the genocide at Auschwitz to take place. The Jews that were stripped of their possessions could just as easily have been kept alive as prisoners and Gronig's task would have been the same. Likewise, had no one performed Gronig's task, those possessions could have just as easily been tossed aside while the killings continued. Had he performed these same tasks at any site that was not Auschwitz then these charges are never brought. You are essentially seeking to have him be declared guilty by proximity - a proximity that he himself had attempted on more than one occasion to change. If you can't see how fucking stupid that is, then there is no hope for you.

[K. A. Pital]

Voluntarily joining an organization whose task is to enforce Nazi rule and wage racial war is in itself a crime, since in this case you do understand the principles and goals of this organization. There is no indication he did not. The SS concealed only the details of the genocide, but did not really conceal the fact lower races were just subhumans who were to be exterminated for the good of the Third Reich, just read some Himmler speeches. Propaganda is not an excuse; if he believed genocide to be a form of war, that in no way absolves either him or other SS-men from responsibility,

You are a pathetic (and a hilariously bad) SS apologist, TheMoron, and it saddens me to see you. It makes me impossibly sad.

Your main argument is even more stupid: other Auschwitz clerks have been tried. Their presence was not a necessary one. Indeed, none of the prison guards alone was 100% necessary for genocide to occur, even if one of them deserted or ran away, it would have made no difference.

But that is how collective action works: one person is not necessary as a standalone executor, but he is necessary as part of the team that is doing these things. The very fact he was assigned to Auschwitz spoke volumes of what the SS leadership thought of him: only people which were hardcore Nazi were assigned there, due to the nature of what they were about to witness. It was also mentioned on other trials of Auschwitz personnel and if you don't understand this, it is also just sad.

That would be all, TheShitstain.

[TheHammer]

Voluntarily joining an organization whose task is to enforce Nazi rule and wage racial war is in itself a crime, since in this case you do understand the principles and goals of this organization. There is no indication he did not. The SS concealed only the details of the genocide, but did not really conceal the fact lower races were just subhumans who were to be exterminated for the good of the Third Reich, just read some Himmler speeches. Propaganda is not an excuse; if he believed genocide to be a form of war, that in no way absolves either him or other SS-men from responsibility,

If he were fully aware of the organization and its actions, why he was therefore not an enthusiastic participant in its goals? Propoganda is certainly an excuse for why a person might think the way they do. Human beings make decisions based on the information available to them and filtered through what their experience has taught them. When new information is gained, those decisions are re-evaluated as was the case here. The SS wasn't what he thought it was. It wasn't what he was told it was. And when he saw what was actually being done he found it to be horrific.

You are a pathetic (and a hilariously bad) SS apologist, TheMoron, and it saddens me to see you. It makes me impossibly sad.

Well I'm sorry you're impossibly sad Stas Boosh.

But to be an SS apologist, wouldn't I have to be apologizing for the SS itself? There were certainly enthusiastic SS members fully aware of what the mission was, and were full and willing participants. I have no sympathy or defense for them. But when you have an individual like Gronig whose actions before, during, and after indicate he wasn't one of those people I'm inclined to not to include him with the rest.

You're repeated attempt to straw-man this argument and poison the well indicate to me the rather weak footing you feel you have. If you felt you had a strong case, you could simply stand on the facts.

Your main argument is even more stupid: other Auschwitz clerks have been tried. Their presence was not a necessary one. Indeed, none of the prison guards alone was 100% necessary for genocide to occur, even if one of them deserted or ran away, it would have made no difference.

Without specifics your "other Auschwitz clerks have been tried" is fucking meaningless. Further, I don't have a problem with him simply being tried, but I would have a problem with him being convicted as an accessory to 300,000 counts of murder based on the facts of what he actually did.

Guards are necessary for the genocide to take place. They are the ones who moved the people into place to be killed and to do the actual killing themselves. Gronig only handled property, a task that had no impact whatsoever on the killing of prisoners. Its not even a task that needed to be done at Auschwitz.

If the Jews were stripped of possessions at the point of origin, rather than the destination, then Gronig's task is the same, but no one thinks to charge him as an accessory to murder. Which again brings us back to why is he being charged as an accessory simply for having been assigned to the camp but taking no part in killings?

But that is how collective action works: one person is not necessary as a standalone executor, but he is necessary as part of the team that is doing these things. The very fact he was assigned to Auschwitz spoke volumes of what the SS leadership thought of him: only people which were hardcore Nazi were assigned there, due to the nature of what they were about to witness. It was also mentioned on other trials of Auschwitz personnel and if you don't understand this, it is also just sad.

That would be all, TheShitstain.

Perhaps he was assigned there because he was a particularly good accountant. Or maybe they just needed an accountant period, and he was available and fit the job description. He's made it clear that he himself was not informed of the task prior to his arrival. If he were the "hardcore Nazi" you claim, then why was he not an enthusiastic participant in carrying out the task of genocide? Why did he seek to get a decidedly less comfortable assignment to the front lines when confronted with the reality of what was going on at the camps? Again, your argument does not fit the facts.

So no, that's not all Shits Flush. <- See? anyone can do it... Wait a minute... did you just change your fucking name to K.A Pital? WTF?

[Channel72]

Man, I'll miss the name "Stas Bush"... it's just not the same anymore. If Thanas ever changes his name, I quit.

Anyway - look, I've been defending this guy Gröning, but I won't go as far as claiming he was completely clueless as to the activities of the SS when he joined. He may not have known the precise details in terms of the gas chamber schedule, but he obviously knew at least that the Jews were being rounded up en masse, deported to ghettos and camps, and probably at the least being summarily executed or worked to death. He obviously knew, at least to some extent, what was going on. He obviously bought in to the whole Nazi schpiel when he was a young man. Maybe he requested the transfer because it all finally got to his conscience - who knows?

Still, I give him a pass because again... he didn't kill anyone, nor did he apparently even participate in the direct murder of anyone. He just kept records. This, combined with the fact that in his later life he went out of his way to repent in the most vocal way possible, makes me very inclined to forgive him. His actions show he was truly remorseful; otherwise he would have just kept quiet. Whether or not he should be tried is another question, but I certainly don't think he should be charged as an accessory to the the murder of 300,000 people.