Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens

[Adam Reynolds]

My interpretation has always been that Palpatine may have been so focused on the last of the Jedi, Anakin and his children, that he neglected the real threat. Future sight doesn't help if you're scrying the wrong target, so to speak, and no matter what happened in that throne room, the DSII was going to get blown up: Luke has practically zero impact on the space battle. His last tangible effect on the grand conflict was levitating C-3PO.

That is possible, but we know that he was focusing on those areas enough to make plans that would oppose those by the Rebel Alliance. It was only when they failed to plan that he lost. The ewoks never planned their attack, Chewie never planned to steal the AT-ST, Han never planned to use it to enter the bunker, and Lando never planned their desperate strategy to protect the Rebel fleet from the Death Star. Though apart from the ewok attack, all of those things happened after Luke and Vader began fighting and thus Palpatine was likely distracted by the duel.

Would the Death Star blowing up have been that big a deal to Palpatine? The Empire survived losing a Death Star before and its doubtful Palpatine himself would have died. The station didn't blow up instantly and the film appears to show Imperial personnel evacuating. Even if Palpatine sensed nothing coming (dubious), might not Palpatine have had time to make it to a shuttle (though it would have been hilarious if after all that he died when his fleeing shuttle was shot down)?

While I agree that Palpatine would have been somewhat likely to escape, I wonder if part of why they brought the entire Rebel fleet was due to the fact that they intended to shoot him down if he tried to escape. For all we know an X-wing squadron intercepted Luke's shuttle before he coded a Rebel IFF signal.

As for surviving the loss of the Death Star, I actually doubt that they would have very easily. The problem, as I stated earlier, is that the Death Star gives the Empire the unquestioned ability to punch through planetary shields on any world in the Empire. This prevents anyone from opposing the Empire and relying on their shields to sustain them against the Imperial fleet. The fact that the Emperor himself was planning to reside on the station likely means that his grasp of power was waning after the loss of the Imperial Senate and that rebuilding the Death Star as quickly as they did was an act of desperation as they were beginning to lose their grip on the galaxy. It is notable that in ANH the Rebels had a handful of starfighters. In ROTJ, they had an entire fleet assembled. In the end Leia was right, as the Empire attempted to tighten its grip, more star systems slipped through their fingers and supported the Rebellion. But Tarkin was also oddly right, without the Death Star, the brutal doctrine failed.

Though more generally, I agree that he was correct to focus his attention on Luke. While the Rebels might have been able to kill him. Luke(especially if he redeemed Vader) almost certainly could.

[Oskuro]

The Death Star was for planetary mining, blow up the planet to get to its gooey caramel center without having to dig to it.

Wasn't it implied by the conversation between the Geonosian leader and Count Dooku that the death star prototype was being developed as a weapon? "They can't find out what we're planning on building" or somesuch.

Wait... joun Lord, are you speaking in character as an Imperial or something? The Wookipedia states that the designation as a planetary mining device was just propaganda to hide the real purpose of the station.




As for the teaser trailer.... I love watching reaction videos, specially the crowd reaction at the event where it was first revealed. Even if the movie ends up sucking, those moments of joy can't be taken away

[Adam Reynolds]

Adamskywalker007, the problem with your theory is that it assumes things without which events still make sense. For example, you assume that a fully-trained Jedi is basically a demi-god in power. There is one simple point of counter-evidence to this: General Krell (unless you don't consider him canon).

I never said that Jedi were demi-gods or that they were impossible for non Force users to kill. Obviously Order 66 shows that the overwhelming majority of Jedi, even inside the Temple, died to clone troopers. In ROTJ even Luke Skywalker*, when momentarily distracted by Leia, is hit in the hand by one of Jabba's goons. My point is that while it is possible for characters that aren't Jedi to be sucessful against them occasionally, to reliably stop Jedi, it takes a fellow Force user.

* Though he wasn't yet at the height of his powers. I actually doubt he would have survived Geonosis at that point. Though in his defense, unlike the Jedi in the arena, he was smart enough to stay mobile and never be pinned down despite facing inferior firepower. This is similarly done by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM, when they faced a pair of droidikas they escaped rather than continue fighting and waiting for even more reinforcements to appear.

Krell fell to the Dark Side and thus was not hindered by it. Yet a bunch of clones still managed to get him and he was still surprised by the tentacle-flower-thing. Krell was killed on his knees unable to foresee that Dogma would kill him either.

The fact that he had fallen to the Dark Side at that point didn't necessarily mean he was fully able to use it. Not to mention that I would argue that tapping into the Dark Side in combat without training or experience would actually lead one to be more reckless and prone to falling into traps, due to its reliance on the natural anger of the individual. We see that with Obi-Wan who, in striking with anger against Darth Maul, fell into a trap involving a well time Force push. We also see this with newly appointed Darth Vader on Mustafar, easily falling into his master's trap. Luke similarly fails to anticipate that it might be a bad idea to throw away his ligthsaber against Palpatine. It is no coincidence that Palpatine dropped his cane and his pretense of being old and weak just before he began shocking Luke. This is something he might have noticed otherwise. He also forgot Yoda's advice about not underestimating the abilities of the Emperor.

So the explanation that the Dark Shroud mainly effects long-term foresight is still workable. It explains why Krell was able to foresee the future yet still get beaten by non-Force users. Saying Jango was defeated by one of the best fighters of the entire Order does not dismiss the point. The Jedi Jango killed clearly deflected the first few shots and paid attention to Jango but still lost. Cad Bane also managed to fight Jedi and even win.

That explains nothing with regard to Krell. And it also fails to explain why the raw displays of power by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were never shown again during all of the Clone Wars. And I agree that more powerful Jedi would be more effective as in the case of Jango vs Mace Windu. But that is the whole point, that to take on the most powerful Jedi or Sith it requires a fellow Force user. For new movies, we're not talking about random would be Jedi #5. We're talking about the next generation of Skywalkers.

You are also making the mistake that you assume that all Jedi would have that powerful foresight. Each Jedi's skills with the Force varied and I think it is safe to assume that the people most hindered by it were the most powerful users of Force-foresight like Yoda. Not everyone is as powerful as him or as skilled at it, foresight was Yoda's specialty.

Every Jedi might vary in ability, but without foresight they would all be significantly weaker. And actually Yoda was affected less. Notice that he was the only one in AOTC who saw the writing on the wall, that the Jedi were losing their abilities and still too overconfident in them(all but predicting what would happen on Geonosis). And unlike Mace Windu(who led said Jedi into that disaster), he recognized that it was foolish to reveal the loss of their abilities. Your statement is akin to saying that 10% loss in income affects the wealthy more than the poor.

Yoda might be the best at it but there is no indication that other masters aren't equally capable of powerful insights. It is Mace Windu, not Yoda, who senses a plot to destroy the Jedi in ROTS. And it is Ki-Adi-Mundi who recognizes that Maul would likely show up on Naboo in TPM. Not to mention that Yoda was not the creator of the prophecy of the Chosen One. While less powerful or experienced Jedi would be much less effective, masters in general are more than capable.

Diversifying Force-users you are also mixing up terminologies a bit. Not everyone who uses the Dark Side is a Sith, such as the Night-sisters. Being Sith isn't just using the Dark Side but a tradition with its own philosophy, methods, techniques, etc. The same could be true for the Jedi.

This is true, I was often using Sith as shorthand to signify practitioner of the Dark Side. But the fact that they are the most notable tradition implies that they would likely outlast the alternatives.

There is no evidence that lightsaber colors have significant meaning beyond arbitrary choice by the creators. In-universe it seems entirely random or dependent on the crystal, donnu what's the lore on lightsabers after Disney's canon-reset beyond what I seen in Rebels (I didn't like how Ezra was just given a crystal rather than him finding one). The few unusually colored lightsabers could be from their creators using non-traditional sources for crystals. It would explain the relative consistency.

That does seem to be the case. Green lightsabers were only introduced because in ROTJ it was impossible to have a blue lightsaber appear different from the background of the blue sky. Otherwise it would have simply been the case that Jedi use blue and Sith use red. I was merely suggesting the possibility that if one was interested in Jedi vs Jedi, then it would make sense to differentiate the colors to make it easier to see which was which. Though perhaps not, the iconic image of ROTS is Obi-Wan vs Anakin, with both wielding blue lightsabers.

As for lightsaber cyrstals, the Younglings arc in Clone Wars indicates that crystals are distinctive to the Jedi and that each Jedi is drawn to the crystal for their particular lightsaber(though they were all still blue and green). I haven't really seen Rebels, but as for Ezra simply being given one, they are in somewhat desperate times in which the normal process of finding one doesn't apply. As for the more rare saber colors(Ashoka had a yellow mini-saber and Mace Windu had purple), they likely are much harder to get. And the Red lightsabers of a Sith were said to use synthetic crystals(no idea if that still applies).

On the Death-Star thing, the best argument I can say is that maybe they made a planet-destroying laser because some planet's planatery shield are really that powerful (I'd imagine Coruscant's) and in that instance, Vader deliberately chose maximum power rather than just enough.

That was essentially my argument. In the specific case of Alderann, it might have been overkill, but that was also the first true test. It would make sense that they would fire at full power just to see what it would do.

[Zixinus]

Let me explain why Krell's death disproves your theory.

Your theory: before the appearance of the Dark Shroud, Jedi were much were powerful and near unbeatable. Only a Sith's influence can make a reliably Jedi defeatable (the fact that a large mayority of Jedi were killed by Order 66 disproves this).

My theory: the Dark Shroud blocked long-term foresight of Jedi. This had a significant effect on the Order's ability to deploy itself because they relied heavily on it for their long-term planning. However, otherwise they were unaffected.

How Krell disproves your hteory: Krell turned to the Dark Side and thus became immune to the Dark Shroud's effects. He demonstrated this by foreseeing the Empire's rise. Yet he was still killed.

If your theory were true, Krell should have been undefeatable or at least only defeatable by tiring him out and wearing him down. Instead, Krell's plan of turning the clones against each other failed (yet his foresight was unclouded), he was surprised by the tentacle-flower-thing and was stunned. In imprisonment he was simply killed rather than try escape again. He clearly was a very capable fighter yet he still was killed.

The fact that he had fallen to the Dark Side at that point didn't necessarily mean he was fully able to use it.

Then how did he still manage to fight despite heavy resistance?

That explains nothing with regard to Krell.

My theory is that the Dark Shroud only blocks long-term foresight. This is supported by the context of the dialog where they mention this, talking about unable to foresse an attempt on the Queen's life. Krell's ability to foresee the emergence of the Empire (or at least, the shift in the nature of the Republic) shows that he was uneffected by it.

And it also fails to explain why the raw displays of power by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were never shown again during all of the Clone Wars.

What are you talking about? If you mean more acrobatics, that could be simply due to Lucas being able to do more acrobatics in the first film and decided to needing to do less in the later films for whatever reasons.

If you are talking about taking far more risky tactics, there are two points:

1. Until the destroyer droids showed up, they only faced the B1 battle droids that were very weak fighters, especially before they were upgraded after the Battle of Naboo. They were only significant threat in overly high numbers. This allowed the two Jedi to take more risks than otherwise would. After their desperate scramble to get to the chancellor (and then force him to disable all battle droids at lightsaber-point), they run and avoid combat if they can and rely on stealth.

2. Both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were very formidable fighters, as evidenced by the fact that they still managed to stand up to Darth Maul.

But that is the whole point, that to take on the most powerful Jedi or Sith it requires a fellow Force user.

Unless someone is creative enough to figure out an alternative, perhaps warriors who are made, equipped and trained to be immune or resistant to most common Jedi abilities and Force powers. I think a dedicated thread should me made discussing what that would be.

One possibility is a purely inorganic but highly mutable and diverse species that have a chaotic hive-mind. The Yuuzhan Vong were also an example of this, being outside the Galaxy's regular Force and instead forming their own.

And actually Yoda was affected less.

Less affected or more able to gain from what little wasn't blocked? Yoda seen past the Republic's need of the Jedi.

Yoda might be the best at it but there is no indication that other masters aren't equally capable of powerful insights.

No, but there is little to no indication that most other masters were close to his level of ability.

I was merely suggesting the possibility that if one was interested in Jedi vs Jedi, then it would make sense to differentiate the colors to make it easier to see which was which.

There are seven main colors plus black and white (both seen in Clone Wars).

There are of course a whole host of other visual designs.

[Zixinus]

Two points I forgot to add before the edit time-window expired:

The problem with the locking of Jedi vs Sith dynamic is that at this point has become old. By now the EU and especially its Old Republic aspects have very well explored that dynamic. We seen the Jedi dominating the Galaxy while the Sith is in hiding and vice-versa, as well as the two in opposing wars. Saying that only one can oppose the other creatively locks the dynamic down.

But the fact that they are the most notable tradition implies that they would likely outlast the alternatives.

Being more notable does not imply that it is more lasting. The Sith tradition died with the death of Vader and Palpatine because they were the last practitioners, unless Darth Maul (or some other student) is still kicking around somewhere or managed to pass on his knowledge. The whole point of the Role of Two of that version of Sith tradition was to minimize their number to only Master-Apprentice roles to minimize the chance of being discovered by small number of members.

Alternatives actually may have outlasted the Sith tradition by being more restrained and thus not attracting the attention of the Jedi during the Old Republic. The Night Sisters were an example of Dark-Side Force-users because they avoided making the Jedi their enemy, the Jedi clearly tolerating their practices.

The only reason other traditions would have have been destroyed if the Sith sought them out. It seems certainly their way to destroy competition.

[The Romulan Republic]

The fact that he had fallen to the Dark Side at that point didn't necessarily mean he was fully able to use it. Not to mention that I would argue that tapping into the Dark Side in combat without training or experience would actually lead one to be more reckless and prone to falling into traps, due to its reliance on the natural anger of the individual. We see that with Obi-Wan who, in striking with anger against Darth Maul, fell into a trap involving a well time Force push. We also see this with newly appointed Darth Vader on Mustafar, easily falling into his master's trap. Luke similarly fails to anticipate that it might be a bad idea to throw away his ligthsaber against Palpatine. It is no coincidence that Palpatine dropped his cane and his pretense of being old and weak just before he began shocking Luke. This is something he might have noticed otherwise. He also forgot Yoda's advice about not underestimating the abilities of the Emperor.

I'm not going to go through your whole post but I wanted to address this part specifically.

You can't use Luke throwing away his light sabre and not anticipating the threat posed by Palpatine as evidence of the Dark Side making people reckless. Luke throwing away his light sabre was not the act of someone in the thrall of the Dark Side. On the contrary, it was a pointed rejection of the violence and rage of the Dark Side that he had begun to give into previously.

And it may well have been the smartest move Luke could make under the circumstances. Not only was he rejecting the Dark Side, he may have done little to adversely affect his chances of resisting an attack by Palpatine. Unless Palpatine had weakened greatly since Revenge of the Sith, its doubtful that Luke could have beaten him in a fight. Besides, Anakin was the Chosen One. Luke's victory hinged on redeeming Anakin without falling to the Dark Side himself, not beating Palpatine in a duel, and weather it was planned, a result of following instinct/using the Force, or chance, Luke handled the situation very well.

[Adam Reynolds]

Your theory: before the appearance of the Dark Shroud, Jedi were much were powerful and near unbeatable. Only a Sith's influence can make a reliably Jedi defeatable (the fact that a large mayority of Jedi were killed by Order 66 disproves this).

I have already said, Order 66 happened after the Jedi had their abilities weakened. That is hardly indicative of what Jedi would be capable of at their height.

And I never said that Jedi were unbeatable. What I said was that the only consistent threat to the most powerful Jedi(as the next generation of Skywalkers will be) was fellow Force users. From a writing standpoint, it is a good idea to have serious antagonists that are more powerful than our heroes. Having someone that is less powerful is never a good idea, even if they can occasionally win.

My theory: the Dark Shroud blocked long-term foresight of Jedi. This had a significant effect on the Order's ability to deploy itself because they relied heavily on it for their long-term planning. However, otherwise they were unaffected.

I mostly agree. The biggest impact was due to their foresight being affected. But their combat abilities also suffered as a result. And at the climax, Order 66, their short term precog was affected to the point that they were unable to even see the immediate future.

How Krell disproves your hteory: Krell turned to the Dark Side and thus became immune to the Dark Shroud's effects. He demonstrated this by foreseeing the Empire's rise. Yet he was still killed.

If your theory were true, Krell should have been undefeatable or at least only defeatable by tiring him out and wearing him down. Instead, Krell's plan of turning the clones against each other failed (yet his foresight was unclouded), he was surprised by the tentacle-flower-thing and was stunned. In imprisonment he was simply killed rather than try escape again. He clearly was a very capable fighter yet he still was killed.

As I said, relying on the Dark Side in combat leads to less rational decisions in combat when not properly trained and disciplined, things Krell gave no indication of. The shroud of the Dark Side was irrelevant in this case.

Then how did he still manage to fight despite heavy resistance?

Because he had power rather than control.

My theory is that the Dark Shroud only blocks long-term foresight. This is supported by the context of the dialog where they mention this, talking about unable to foresse an attempt on the Queen's life. Krell's ability to foresee the emergence of the Empire (or at least, the shift in the nature of the Republic) shows that he was uneffected by it.

They were talking about the fact that they were unable to see the creation of the Clone Army, a much larger event. And a single vision isn't the same as effective foresight. Luke was able to see his friends on Bespin but unable to see any details regarding it, while Yoda was.

What are you talking about? If you mean more acrobatics, that could be simply due to Lucas being able to do more acrobatics in the first film and decided to needing to do less in the later films for whatever reasons.

Are we using out of universe or in universe arguements? The fact that there were less acrobatics, even when it could have been useful, implies that there was a reason it wasn't. The shroud of the Dark Side is a known entity and thus explains this. Mace Windu didn't state our ability to see is diminished, he stated that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

If we're allowing writer's fiat into the debate then it doesn't matter who they fight because the Jedi will always win in the end.

1. Until the destroyer droids showed up, they only faced the B1 battle droids that were very weak fighters, especially before they were upgraded after the Battle of Naboo. They were only significant threat in overly high numbers. This allowed the two Jedi to take more risks than otherwise would. After their desperate scramble to get to the chancellor (and then force him to disable all battle droids at lightsaber-point), they run and avoid combat if they can and rely on stealth.

If you are counting Clone Wars as fully canon, battle droids were far more effective on Naboo than during the Clone Wars. And I think you mean viceroy rather than chancellor.

2. Both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were very formidable fighters, as evidenced by the fact that they still managed to stand up to Darth Maul.

Of course they were. But Obi-Wan shows more impressive powers as a padawan in TPM than in ROTS, as a master sitting on the Jedi council.

Unless someone is creative enough to figure out an alternative, perhaps warriors who are made, equipped and trained to be immune or resistant to most common Jedi abilities and Force powers. I think a dedicated thread should me made discussing what that would be.

One possibility is a purely inorganic but highly mutable and diverse species that have a chaotic hive-mind. The Yuuzhan Vong were also an example of this, being outside the Galaxy's regular Force and instead forming their own.

The Yuzhan Vong were an awful idea. A biowank alien invasion of the SW galaxy. I would rather have more Jedi vs Sith.

The hive mind idea is interesting. Perhaps we should make another thread about ideas like this.

Less affected or more able to gain from what little wasn't blocked? Yoda seen past the Republic's need of the Jedi.

He was the only Jedi we saw who could still tell that Order 66 had occurred. That implies a level of ability far beyond fellow Jedi, including two fellow council members.

No, but there is little to no indication that most other masters were close to his level of ability.

In TPM he was the only one who had the wisdom to doubt their abilities. Mace Windu was adamant that the Jedi would have detected the Sith. Yoda realized the Dark Side would be harder to see.

The problem with the locking of Jedi vs Sith dynamic is that at this point has become old. By now the EU and especially its Old Republic aspects have very well explored that dynamic. We seen the Jedi dominating the Galaxy while the Sith is in hiding and vice-versa, as well as the two in opposing wars. Saying that only one can oppose the other creatively locks the dynamic down.

Have we seen a proper scenario in which neither is in power? Because that is the indication I get from the new films. Once they have done that, I would agree that they should move on to another threat. Though I would also like to see a movie about Darth Bane creating the Rule of Two as the old Sith crumbled(though I doubt we will). It would fit the mold of villain protagonists that is so popular lately.

Being more notable does not imply that it is more lasting. The Sith tradition died with the death of Vader and Palpatine because they were the last practitioners, unless Darth Maul (or some other student) is still kicking around somewhere or managed to pass on his knowledge. The whole point of the Role of Two of that version of Sith tradition was to minimize their number to only Master-Apprentice roles to minimize the chance of being discovered by small number of members.

The Sith tradition is longer than the Bane tradition. There is no indication that this is fully dead.

Alternatives actually may have outlasted the Sith tradition by being more restrained and thus not attracting the attention of the Jedi during the Old Republic. The Night Sisters were an example of Dark-Side Force-users because they avoided making the Jedi their enemy, the Jedi clearly tolerating their practices.

Or the Jedi simply had bigger problems by the time the Nightsisters emerged. The Jedi tolerated them because they were content to sit on a single planet outside the Republic and thus largely outside the jurisdiction of the Jedi.

The only reason other traditions would have have been destroyed if the Sith sought them out. It seems certainly their way to destroy competition.

Why wouldn't Palpatine have destroyed them? It would be rational to destroy any potential Force users that could be a threat. Thus I would find it odd for any alternative Force traditions to have survived the Empire.

[Terralthra]

What are you talking about? If you mean more acrobatics, that could be simply due to Lucas being able to do more acrobatics in the first film and decided to needing to do less in the later films for whatever reasons.

Are we using out of universe or in universe arguements? The fact that there were less acrobatics, even when it could have been useful, implies that there was a reason it wasn't. The shroud of the Dark Side is a known entity and thus explains this. Mace Windu didn't state our ability to see is diminished, he stated that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

If we're allowing writer's fiat into the debate then it doesn't matter who they fight because the Jedi will always win in the end.

In universe, Obi-Wan saw his master (ataru, aka acrobatic lightsabre style) get owned by Darth Maul 1-1 because he tired from the use of all acrobatics and the riskiness of the style overall. He thus devoted himself to a more defensive form (soresu), which wasn't up to taking on Dooku's dueling-focused style (makashi), but neither was Yoda's acrobatics (ataru again), but in RotS, his defensive mastery was sufficient to hold off the quad-sabres of a cyborg and the dark-side-enhanced aggressive style of Anakin, defeating both. The names of the styles may be Legends-canon only, but they're still observable in-universe, without the names attached.

It's no accident that as Obi-Wan ages and after his master dies, his lightsabre style grows more defensive and less risk-taking than it was as a brash padawan - that's explicitly part of the story told by lightsabre fighting styles, as relayed by the fightmaster.

[Adam Reynolds]

It's no accident that as Obi-Wan ages and after his master dies, his lightsabre style grows more defensive and less risk-taking than it was as a brash padawan - that's explicitly part of the story told by lightsabre fighting styles, as relayed by the fightmaster.

I'm not just talking about lightsaber styles. The fifty foot jump up that Obi-Wan makes in TPM is never repeated again in later movies. Even more impressive is the several dozen g acceleration made when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run from the droidikas. This would have been quite useful and is never repeated.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It's no accident that as Obi-Wan ages and after his master dies, his lightsabre style grows more defensive and less risk-taking than it was as a brash padawan - that's explicitly part of the story told by lightsabre fighting styles, as relayed by the fightmaster.

I'm not just talking about lightsaber styles. The fifty foot jump up that Obi-Wan makes in TPM is never repeated again in later movies. Even more impressive is the several dozen g acceleration made when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run from the droidikas. This would have been quite useful and is never repeated.

Um... It kinda was. See the battle on Mustafar, as well as repeatedly in Clone Wars. Similar leaps are made continually. Palpatine is certainly hampering their precognitive abilities, but not the basic force powers. There is nothing diminished there, unless you are plagued by confirmation bias. Anakin and Ahsoka are able to arrest a fall from at least double that height, which takes the exact same amount of energy as reaching said height through the force (I dont remember how they got up on top of that wall, and I dont have the episode handy, but I seem to remember they jumped it)

[Terralthra]

It's no accident that as Obi-Wan ages and after his master dies, his lightsabre style grows more defensive and less risk-taking than it was as a brash padawan - that's explicitly part of the story told by lightsabre fighting styles, as relayed by the fightmaster.

I'm not just talking about lightsaber styles. The fifty foot jump up that Obi-Wan makes in TPM is never repeated again in later movies. Even more impressive is the several dozen g acceleration made when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon run from the droidikas. This would have been quite useful and is never repeated.

Please go re-watch the movies. You actually mention in earlier posts several feats from AotC and RotS that equal or exceed those.

Luke leaps out of the carbonite freezing chamber.

Coleman Trebor jumped up from the arena floor to Dooku's balcony. Anakin does a several meter leap to save Obi-Wan from Dooku's coup de grace. Yoda makes huge leaps in his duel with Dooku.

Yoda and Palpatine jump from the central platform of the Senate to the wall platforms, at least 8-10 meters away, then Yoda leaps another 10+ from platform to platform.

Anakin jumps from the platform falling over the lava waterfall onto a tiny droid dozens of meters away. Obi-Wan jumps several meters to the bank of the lava river in the same duel, and Anakin then jumps clear over his head.

[Balrog]

I had written up a thread here which explored how the Dark Side was affecting Jedi abilities, and while some of it is now Legends canon others come from the movies or their novelizations which are still Disney canon.

There's also this from the Tarkin book, which also suggest the Jedi were being negatively affected:

The two of them were in Sidious' lair, a small rock-walle enclosure beneath the deepest of the Palace's several sublevels that had once been an ancient Sith shrine. That the Jedi had raised their Temple over the shrine had for a thousand years been one of the most closely guarded secrets of those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders. Even the most powerful of Dark Side Adepts believed that shrines of the sort existed only on Sith worlds remote from Coruscant, and even the most powerful of Jedi believed that the power inherent in the shrine had been neutralized and successfully capped. In truth, that power had seeped upward and outward since its entombment, infiltrating the hallways and rooms above, and weakening the Jedi Order much as the Sith Masters themselves had secretly infiltrated the corridors of political power and toppled the Republic.

Save for Sidious, no sentient being in close to five thousand years had set foot in the shrine. The room's excavation and restoration had been carried out by machines under the supervision of 11-4D. Even Vader was unaware of the shrine's existence. But it was here that they would one day work together the way Sidious and Plagueis had to coax from the dark side its final secrets.

Bolding added. That's not the say that Force precog is perfect, but something like the shroud should be recognized and accounted for.

[Adam Reynolds]

Um... It kinda was. See the battle on Mustafar, as well as repeatedly in Clone Wars. Similar leaps are made continually. Palpatine is certainly hampering their precognitive abilities, but not the basic force powers. There is nothing diminished there, unless you are plagued by confirmation bias. Anakin and Ahsoka are able to arrest a fall from at least double that height, which takes the exact same amount of energy as reaching said height through the force (I dont remember how they got up on top of that wall, and I dont have the episode handy, but I seem to remember they jumped it)

What about the feat of acceleration? We never see that.

In any case, my original point was about precog rather than telekinetic abilities. I got somewhat distracted talking about that.

There's also this from the Tarkin book, which also suggest the Jedi were being negatively affected:

I had forgotten that one. It is certainly illuminating. And I can't help but wonder if it has something to do with The Force Awakens. Perhaps it was how the new Sith was corrupted?

[Zixinus]

I have already said, Order 66 happened after the Jedi had their abilities weakened. That is hardly indicative of what Jedi would be capable of at their height.

So how did the Emperor fail to foresee the destruction of the Death Star? He knew how to use the Dark Side and was not hampered by the Dark Shroud. He certainly never mentioned any Light Shroud nor did Vader that you put up in conjuncture.

But their combat abilities also suffered as a result.

There is no evidence of this and is not part of my theory (and that is significant because you agree to it then change it back to yours, on a quote that is my theory).

As I said, relying on the Dark Side in combat leads to less rational decisions in combat when not properly trained and disciplined, things Krell gave no indication of. The shroud of the Dark Side was irrelevant in this case.

It is relevant to the topic of how powerful foresight is. If unclouded foresight is as powerful as you make it out to be, why was Krell surprised and unaware of the danger the tentacle-flower-thing posed when he came near it? His ability to foresee the future was unclouded, he demonstrated that, yet failed to foresee (both short-term and long) several things that lead to him being captured and killed.
Krell was a fully-trained Jedi who certainly did not lack discipline or training. Maybe not in the Dark Side specifically, but he is no Padawan. I don't recall Krell being impulsive or clumsy at any one time, in fact planning things out and doing everything he does with purpose.

The shroud of the Dark Side is a known entity and thus explains this.

The Dark Shroud is a vaguely-defined thing that is referred to once, is not explained or detailed in its effects other than to penetrate it you needed to join the Dark Side. And others have pointed out that the Jedi still manage equally impressive feats despite its presence.

Mace Windu didn't state our ability to see is diminished, he stated that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

Or he just wasn't someone who precisely worded himself.

The Yuzhan Vong were an awful idea. A biowank alien invasion of the SW galaxy. I would rather have more Jedi vs Sith.

New ideas always have a risk and do something different, sometimes they work out and sometimes they fail. At least the Yuuzhan Vong were a new idea rather than trying to recycle old ones.

The Sith tradition is longer than the Bane tradition. There is no indication that this is fully dead.

Then you must not have been paying attention. Palpatine's line was the only Sith tradition alive. It actively encouraged finding and destroying rivals as Palpatine did. Again, unless Maul survived somewhere beyond Palpatine's death (unlikely situation), there are no other confirmed Sith. At best we see the Inquisitor and maybe the implication that there are more like him, but not confirmation.

The non-Bane Sith tradition died on Ruusan (according to the EU at least). Only the Bane tradition survived from that line.

Or the Jedi simply had bigger problems by the time the Nightsisters emerged.

Or Jedi were not paladins out of a RPG game that tried to exterminate anything that scored positive on a "detect Dark-side user" check. They fought people who wanted to fight them, not who they didn't like or found objectionable.

The Sith made themselves their enemy quite clearly, so they aren't an issue. You don't exterminate religious orders at the drop of a hat, or just because they do weird and creepy and possibly dangerous things. The Jedi certainly do not strike me as a kind of people that prosecute people like that. The Nightsisters were not a menace and avoided making an enemy out of the Jedi. The Jedi leaved them alone and when one of them visited them, Obi-Wan was polite.

Why wouldn't Palpatine have destroyed them?

Because they were in hiding or were too weak, too isolated,too location-specific to be a threat? Or they are hard to find? Or they served him, who knows?

It's a big galaxy with plenty of room for religions. Palpatine could not have wasted his time and effort on picking trough all of them to find where those that tap the Dark Side, or the Force at all, come from. Palpatine also had plenty on his plate, keeping the Empire together and creating his seat of power that was to be the Death Star.

[Lord Revan]

for those arguing that Jedi foresight is perfect and only reason for them to get caught off-guard is the shroud of the dark side. remember that Yoda said "always in motion of the future is" not "shrouded the future is" suggesting that what Jedi actually see is a potential future and not the exact "this will happen with 100% certainty" future.

[Balrog]

for those arguing that Jedi foresight is perfect and only reason for them to get caught off-guard is the shroud of the dark side. remember that Yoda said "always in motion of the future is" not "shrouded the future is" suggesting that what Jedi actually see is a potential future and not the exact "this will happen with 100% certainty" future.

True. However, we know that without Dark Side fuckery the Jedi expected that they would have picked up on the creation of the Clone Army much sooner than Obi-wan blundering onto the factory floor, or picked up on the subversion of the Senate by a Sith Lord at all, given what was said in AotC. My guess would be that the more significant a potential event could be, the more likely at least one of them would have foreseen it.

[Lord Revan]

for those arguing that Jedi foresight is perfect and only reason for them to get caught off-guard is the shroud of the dark side. remember that Yoda said "always in motion of the future is" not "shrouded the future is" suggesting that what Jedi actually see is a potential future and not the exact "this will happen with 100% certainty" future.

True. However, we know that without Dark Side fuckery the Jedi expected that they would have picked up on the creation of the Clone Army much sooner than Obi-wan blundering onto the factory floor, or picked up on the subversion of the Senate by a Sith Lord at all, given what was said in AotC. My guess would be that the more significant a potential event could be, the more likely at least one of them would have foreseen it.

seems logical but then that wasn't my point. My point was that Jedi precog/foresight isn't perfect and a normal person can defeat a jedi at "full strength", sure doing so will be hard but not impossible.

[tezunegari]

Has Kylo Ren lost his mask? Spoiler

http://www.polygon.com/2015/5/4/8542615 ... owtroopers

Spoiler

[The Romulan Republic]

That looks so very fake.

[Elfdart]

That looks so very fake.

It's real -it's just not from the movie. Liebowitz is brought in to shoot glossies specially arranged for Vanity Fair. There was one from TPM of Obi-Wan and Darth Maul fighting on Tattooine even though no such scene takes place in the movies.

[Pelranius]

His arms seem a lot thinner than I remembered them being in Girls. Adam Driver was in the Marine Corps before, too.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, Leibovitz did a whole buttload of glamour photos of the cast for Vanity Fair. There's one of the Chrometrooper that's been going around Facebook lately.

"Captain Phasma". Jesus.

[Nephtys]

There's a lot of goofy names in Star Wars, but I wonder what's worse. Captain Plasma, or Count Dooku? General Grievous?

[Elheru Aran]

That's true. I suppose once the movie's been around for a few years we won't care. At least it's not Elan Sleazebaggano...

[The Romulan Republic]

I actually don't mind Captain Phasma.

In fact, I'm okay with pretty much all of the new names I've heard for this film.