6 Reasons The Jedi Would Be The Villain In Any Sane Movie

[Galvatron]

Just a minor curiosity.. if Mace Windu had gone public with the revelation (or at least his suspicions with some evidence) that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, would this have had the effect of discrediting the Chancellor?

Maybe not, but at least they could get public opinion on their side versus playing right into Palpatine's hands. Maybe even get a couple of senators like Bail and Padme to propose and second a motion to conduct a formal investigation. At the very least, it would have delayed Palpatine's rise from chancellor to emperor.

[Anacronian]

Does the general public even know the difference between Sith and Jedi?

[Lord Revan]

Does the general public even know the difference between Sith and Jedi?

general public in the Galactic Republic?

In the legendaries yeah they would know as the Sith Empire was a long time enemy of the Republic, so they'd know enough that being a Sith Lord would be an automatic "he's a bad guy" to them. In the current canon I dunno. That said I dout the general public would know a difference between a Jedi and a dark Jedi.

[Patroklos]

I am not so sure. How many thousands of years ago was all that? I suppose if they were still a popularized villain like say Nazi Germany that had its villain status constantly reinforced via media that would be the case but that doesn't appear to be the case here. If Mongolia renamed itself the Golden Horde after a society reorganizing revolution would everyone in Eurasia instantly consider them villains?

[Zixinus]

According to the EU, by the end of the Sith wars the general population saw relatively little difference between the constantly warring Jedi and Sith. So odds are that the revelation of Palpatine being a Sith Lord may not have been enough to truly threaten his position. He did not seem to be worried about it once he was Emperor. If it got out but nothing else than the population would rather meet it with confusion, it's not like they are going to form emotional opinions on something out of a history textbook. Some people will be suspicious, sure but I doubt they'd care.

Now, having and presenting proof that he started the Clone Wars and that Dooku was his apprentice even trough the Clone Wars, that would have threatened his position. If the Jedi would have managed to get any evidence of that at all.

[Patroklos]

I really don't think the Emperor and his force sensitizes made a big deal about it during the Empire years. Its obvious whatever influence they have is not considered formidable in day to day operations given Admiral Motti's antics. Tarkin shows us simply being a force user, even a very powerful one like Vader, does not mean you outrank everyone (unlike the BS Jedi general crap from the OR). And despite the Motti scene we don't see Vader running into the Tanitive light saber drawn, and when it was time to show CAPT Antilles who was boss Vader used his Mk one human (maybe robot, whatever) hand to do the dirty work. No, I think the Emperor keeps his force powers close to his chest to the point that most people don't know they exist, which makes them all the more useful as a tool of manipulation (a la his Chancellor days). Some of his servants are known force users so that those who do appreciate or remember that power know he has it to be wielded, but they are similarly on a short leash regarding their use.

[Galvatron]

Does the general public even know the difference between Sith and Jedi?

Depends on the level of technology at the founding of the Republic. If we're all pretty much in agreement that they had everything from droids to hyperdrives and spanned the galaxy 25,000 years BBY, then I see no reason to believe that they'd have to rely on desiccated parchments for their recorded history. Which means the general populace probably has access to electronically archived historical records on par or better than what we have today with the internet.

And since history is written by the victors, I'm sure the Jedi would make every effort to distinguish themselves from the "evil" Sith.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Does the general public even know the difference between Sith and Jedi?

Depends on the level of technology at the founding of the Republic. If we're all pretty much in agreement that they had everything from droids to hyperdrives and spanned the galaxy 25,000 years BBY, then I see no reason to believe that they'd have to rely on desiccated parchments for their recorded history. Which means the general populace probably has access to electronically archived historical records on par or better than what we have today with the internet.

And since history is written by the victors, I'm sure the Jedi would make every effort to distinguish themselves from the "evil" Sith.

It seems to me that in order to function, most of the galaxy has to be reasonably well educated. Sure, most people dont see a Jedi in their lifetimes, there are only 10,000 of the afterall, but they all went to school of some kind into early adulthood unless they are on some sort of primitive backwater. That will mean that basic political history is likely part of the curriculum, at the very least the events leading up to and surrounding the Treaty of Coruscant and the Ruusan Reformation. They based their calendar on the latter.

[Jedipilot24]

In the TCW novel "Wild Space" Bail Organa has never even heard of the Sith. This despite the fact that he is a very well educated aristocrat from a world that was once invaded by the Sith. If even he hasn't heard of them, it's safe to assume that they aren't known by the general public. I'm not sure how that's possible given the role that the Sith have played in galactic history, especially the Republic's history, but there it is.

Maybe history classes are an elective in the GFFA schools. Would explain a lot.

Bail Organa in "Wild Space" even calls Obi-Wan out on the Jedi policy of sticking a lightsaber into every Sith they meet, arguing that they should be put on trial. Obi-Wan retorts that "you could never get a Sith into a court and even if you could, they would never accept its authority." By the end of the novel, after having spent days watching Obi-Wan get repeatedly mind-raped by a Sith holocron, Bail has changed his tune about the Sith considerably.

[Adam Reynolds]

Those novels aren't canon. And were written by an author who hates Jedi and let this pollute her work.

[Patroklos]

It seems to me that in order to function, most of the galaxy has to be reasonably well educated. Sure, most people dont see a Jedi in their lifetimes, there are only 10,000 of the afterall, but they all went to school of some kind into early adulthood unless they are on some sort of primitive backwater. That will mean that basic political history is likely part of the curriculum, at the very least the events leading up to and surrounding the Treaty of Coruscant and the Ruusan Reformation. They based their calendar on the latter.

Please good sir, tell us everything you know off the top of your head about the Mongols. The point being just because you heard about them and how influential and horrid they were to your polity's proto state thousands of years ago doesn't mean you know anything particularly accurate, relevant, or that you would care about if you met one today.

[Borgholio]

Please good sir, tell us everything you know off the top of your head about the Mongols. The point being just because you heard about them and how influential and horrid they were to your polity's proto state thousands of years ago doesn't mean you know anything particularly accurate, relevant, or that you would care about if you met one today.

Well in all fairness, most people know the Mongol Hordes liked to race across the steppes of Asia and destroy everything in their path. They know of Genghis Khan and that he was a real bad man. They may not know much more than that, but it's enough for them to know that if the Mongols have somehow returned and are heading to their city, it's a good idea to run. With the Sith, same idea. The general public in SW doesn't need to know every detail, but knowing they are basically evil sorcerers with lightsabers who tried to take over the galaxy should be common enough knowledge. Some of the most legendary Sith such as Darth Bane could still be known, even if much of their lives or details are forgotten.

[Patroklos]

If the Mongols showed up today, just one or two of them (ie just like one or two Sith showing up instead of say a modern Sith Empire), even if its Ghengis and Kublai themselves, my first inclination would be to sit down across of bowl of fermented cow milk and learn a thing or two. Even if we give them magic force powers they are still irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

And even if the Mongols did show up with relative numbers and power as in their time would they make the same decisions as they did then? Is our perception of them bad simply because most of us descend from states and peoples on a particular side of that conquest?

100 years ago? Fine, the Sith could be viewed as the equivalent of Space Nazis. But a 1000 years ago? Does any state of today still have national animosities of note that span 1000 years? Some religions (and even then after one sides been extinct for that long?) sure, but actual states? And we are talking about a span of 5000ish years. Sorry, nobody is going to give a shit about it.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree here.

[Borgholio]

Does any state of today still have national animosities of note that span 1000 years?

Japan and China spring to mind, but I do see your point.

[Zixinus]

The problem with history is that old history keeps getting jumbled together after a point of relevance. The farther you go back the more general and vague you get. The integrity of information from a thousands years may be superior in the SW universe, but humans are mostly the same.

You have to prioritize more near-term history, especially to someone like an aristocrat that actually does things in the context of that history, over stuff that happened so long ago that they don't matter today. You can only teach so much to anyone and even under ideal educational conditions one person will only learn so much. They may have learned about the Sith

Take a look at the Mongol's example: they were one of the greatest events of their age to anyone who was effected. However, if you were told that the Mongols were coming would you run now? No, you'd be confused. Yeah, they were a terrifying force 700 years ago but there hasn't been anything of familiar scale since then.
Nobody would really take you seriously if you tell them that a Mongol horde is coming even in Hungary. In a weird way you'd find many people who would be friendly to Mongols because we have this semi-arguable relation to them as Hungarians. The Mongol invasion of Hungary is taught to everyone but it is just one semi-realized evocative image among many in history. You'd have better luck talking about Russians and bringing up the 1956 failed revolution.

You'd have the same reaction. People would abstractly know that the Sith are bad but they only know that as an abstract fact, not as the emotional certainly the Jedi would have. They may be worried about Palpatine a bit, but not if you already consider him a good leader.

[Galvatron]

I also think that a reboot of galactic history is in order, now that the old EU no longer matters. I want to see what Palpatine really meant when he said "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy!" And I don't mean that Brotherhood of Darkness crap. I'd like to see Darth Bane and a group of other Sith Lords actually take Coruscant, rule the galaxy for a time and then have it all collapse due to both in-fighting and a decisive victory by a Jedi rebellion.

[Galvatron]

As an avowed hater of the prequels, my only real beef with the Jedi is that they readily accepted the services of what were essentially slaves that were created and indoctrinated to obey them. I'd have appreciated an extra scene in which Yoda paid the Kaminoans and then told the assembled clones that they were now free...but that he would welcome volunteers to serve the Republic.

That would have gone a long way towards redeeming the Jedi in a lot of peoples' minds.

You are wholly correct, in my view.

True. Although the point was indeed that the Jedi were not so good and pure as they thought they were. And it did bite them in the ass later on.

Fine. If not the Jedi, then Yoda himself. In a way, he personified the order and to show him actually practicing what the Jedi preach would have shown us that they, as a whole, were still worth saving.

I imagine the clone troopers turning their helmeted heads and looking quizzically at one another because it was something they were never prepared for. Then, one by one, and then by large groups, they all step forward to the sound of Yoda's theme (particularly the musical cue when he raises Luke's X-wing from the swamp).

It could have been a classic Star Wars moment in an otherwise shit movie.

[Adam Reynolds]

Japan and China spring to mind, but I do see your point.

Not to mention some of the rival Islamic factions that still continue fighting.

Fine. If not the Jedi, then Yoda himself. In a way, he personified the order and to show him actually practicing what the Jedi preach would have shown us that they, as a whole, were still worth saving.

.
I thought that was even more the point, that Yoda failed to see the forest from the trees. The prequels are a tragedy, this requires tragic characters rather than heroic ones. And even in ESB, Yoda was willing to sacrifice Han and Leia to Vader. I think you are looking at Yoda with rose colored glasses.

A large part of the point with Qui-Gon, and the reason he failed to sit on the Jedi Council, was that he did in fact see the forest from the trees. All of his actions throughout TPM were things that most Jedi would have ignored, and were exactly the things that would lead to victory. Without Jar Jar and Anakin, the Battle of Naboo would have been a defeat for Padme. And the two of them were only present because Qui-Gon believed in helping anyone he was able to, rather than who they were mandated to. Contrast this with yes-man Obi-Wan, who referred to them both as pathetic life forms.

I imagine the clone troopers turning their helmeted heads and looking quizzically at one another because it was something they were never prepared for. Then, one by one, and then by large groups, they all step forward to the sound of Yoda's theme (particularly the musical cue when he raises Luke's X-wing from the swamp).

If the Jedi had freed the Clones, how would Order 66 have worked? And such an idea would be irrelevant. The Clones had already been biologically programmed for absolute loyalty from birth. Asking for volunteers would be the same thing as simply telling them to do something. I'm sure Yoda was smart enough to know this.

[Galvatron]

Yes, I'm looking at Yoda with rose-colored glasses. I don't like how he was handled in the prequels. I thought that was obvious.

And when did I say freeing the clones would have done anything to Order 66? I thought the movie and especially the cartoon made it clear that the clones were treated well by the Jedi, but that didn't matter when the order was given. The scene I described was supposed to redeem the Jedi for what I feel their greatest sin was, not to prevent Order 66.

[Patroklos]

Japan and China spring to mind, but I do see your point.

Not to mention some of the rival Islamic factions that still continue fighting.

There really isn't a historically strong rivalry between Japan and China, especially given Japans self imposed isolation. The current beef between them (and Japan and Korea) is due to Japanese colonialism largely within the last century and maybe some change. That's a far cry from 1000+ years.

And even in the Islamic factions (note not states), the rivalry persists because they have remained in conflict for that 1000 years. If the Shia had disappeared 1000 years ago and only showed up again yesterday that would be a whole different (and less dramatic) matter. Just like if the Cathars showed up it would be a collective yawn.

[Adam Reynolds]

Yes, I'm looking at Yoda with rose-colored glasses. I don't like how he was handled in the prequels. I thought that was obvious.

I was talking about the fact that he showed similar callousness in ESB when he told Luke to let Han and Leia die on Bespin.

And when did I say freeing the clones would have done anything to Order 66? I thought the movie and especially the cartoon made it clear that the clones were treated well by the Jedi, but that didn't matter when the order was given. The scene I described was supposed to redeem the Jedi for what I feel their greatest sin was, not to prevent Order 66.

That was the tragedy of clones, they would follow any order without question. And I always though that the point of Jedi in the prequels was that they were out of touch with what they should be doing. That was largely the point made with Qui-Gon.

[Galvatron]

Yes, I'm looking at Yoda with rose-colored glasses. I don't like how he was handled in the prequels. I thought that was obvious.

I was talking about the fact that he showed similar callousness in ESB when he told Luke to let Han and Leia die on Bespin.

If he honored what they fought for, yes. Yoda didn't advocate sacrifcing them for yuks, but because they were fighting for something larger than themselves. And remember, with the exception of Han, the rest of them got away without Luke's help. They got out of that jam because of Lando's help.

And when did I say freeing the clones would have done anything to Order 66? I thought the movie and especially the cartoon made it clear that the clones were treated well by the Jedi, but that didn't matter when the order was given. The scene I described was supposed to redeem the Jedi for what I feel their greatest sin was, not to prevent Order 66.

That was the tragedy of clones, they would follow any order without question. And I always though that the point of Jedi in the prequels was that they were out of touch with what they should be doing. That was largely the point made with Qui-Gon.

And Yoda making the gesture of giving them the freedom to choose their destiny would have redeemed the Jedi, whether the ultimate outcome remained the same or not. IMO, it's more about showing us glimpses of why the Jedi are, despite their failings, still the good guys and worthy of returning.

[RogueIce]

If he honored what they fought for, yes. Yoda didn't advocate sacrifcing them for yuks, but because they were fighting for something larger than themselves. And remember, with the exception of Han, the rest of them got away without Luke's help. They got out of that jam because of Lando's help.

Only to be recaptured by the Executor without R2's help, and he was only there because of Luke.

There is, of course, the what-if of whether or not Vader would have personally escorted Leia and Chewie to his ship had he not been informed of Luke's approach, and thus had more important things to do. We'll never know, of course, but if he had, well...Lando's little rebellion would never have worked with Vader present. And even if he wasn't, he probably would have taken a personal hand in their recapture as soon as that other stormtrooper squad shooting at our heroes called it in. And there's another what-if. So one could argue that Luke's mere presence serving as a distraction to Vader is what allowed them to make it to the Falcon at all.

But then Lando and Chewie clearly hadn't figured out the hyperdrive was deactivated, and weren't about to in the seconds they had before the SSD locked them up with a tractor beam. That required R2-D2. And the only reason R2 was there at all was again, because of Luke. So yes, Leia was definitely screwed had Luke not left Bespin.

And anyway, Yoda was wrong as he didn't destroy all that for which they had fought and struggled. If anything, learning about his heritage is what precipitated the Emperor's downfall, because now Luke had that edge to turn Vader away when he needed to. Who knows what would have happened had they met in different circumstances?

[Adam Reynolds]

But then Lando and Chewie clearly hadn't figured out the hyperdrive was deactivated, and weren't about to in the seconds they had before the SSD locked them up with a tractor beam. That required R2-D2. And the only reason R2 was there at all was again, because of Luke. So yes, Leia was definitely screwed had Luke not left Bespin.

They actually wouldn't have even opened the door without R2.

And anyway, Yoda was wrong as he didn't destroy all that for which they had fought and struggled. If anything, learning about his heritage is what precipitated the Emperor's downfall, because now Luke had that edge to turn Vader away when he needed to. Who knows what would have happened had they met in different circumstances?

Indeed. That was essentially my point. That Yoda, despite being the great wise character, was actually quite wrong in his first appearance.

And he is also wrong in another major area. Yoda claims that the Dark Side is not stronger. In actuality it is. At least in terms of its combat potential. Luke only defeats Vader by drawing on his anger. And Yoda himself lost to Palpatine. But the weakness of the Dark Side lies in its lack of control. When relying on the Dark Side in combat, it makes one more vulnerable to doing stupid things. Hence why Anakin charged in against Obi-Wan in ROTS and lost his three remainig limbs and got caught on fire as a result.

If he honored what they fought for, yes. Yoda didn't advocate sacrifcing them for yuks, but because they were fighting for something larger than themselves. And remember, with the exception of Han, the rest of them got away without Luke's help. They got out of that jam because of Lando's help.

It is true that they were fighting for something greater than themselves, but that doesn't mean it was worth sacrificing them for it. In ROTJ when Luke and the emperor exchange insults, Luke is told "your faith in your friends is yours [weakness]." As the events of the movie show, Luke was right while the Emperor was wrong, as was Yoda.

And Yoda making the gesture of giving them the freedom to choose their destiny would have redeemed the Jedi, whether the ultimate outcome remained the same or not. IMO, it's more about showing us glimpses of why the Jedi are, despite their failings, still the good guys and worthy of returning.

What was worth bringing back was the ideal of the Jedi as exemplified by Qui-Gon and to a lesser extent Obi-Wan, an order that actually can see the forest from the trees. Yoda is not a part of this, he was part of the problem. The Jedi Order had lost its way, and Yoda was a large part of this.

[Elfdart]

And anyway, Yoda was wrong as he didn't destroy all that for which they had fought and struggled. If anything, learning about his heritage is what precipitated the Emperor's downfall, because now Luke had that edge to turn Vader away when he needed to. Who knows what would have happened had they met in different circumstances?

The biggest theme in these movies is Coming of Age (as it was in American Graffiti and THX-1138). It's not enough for Luke to go from a whiny teenager to a Jedi Knight; he has to become his own man -something his father doesn't do (unless you want to count the point at which he bodyslammed the Emperor). Luke has to put his foot down twice in dealing with Ben and Yoda. First, when he flies off to Bespin, and later when he tells them he can't bring himself to kill Vader. He's going to do things his way. The result is that Luke isn't under the thumb of anyone, and answers to his own conscience.

Oh understand that, it's just a personal preference. Just like one can explain the logic behind a moody, bratty, emo Anakin turning into Vader; none of that matters when it comes down to the fact that I simply would have preferred a different approach. Similarly, I would have saved Yoda's first appearance for TESB.

Then again, I'm well known for having a lot of unconventional ideas for how the prequels should have been done.

No, they're pretty conventional -for those who think they knew the characters and story better than the man who created them.