Steampunk South East Asia

[madd0ct0r]

I've been toying with the idea of a steampunk south-east asia.

It's a fun area of the world to play with: trade routes to everywhere, regionally locked in by India, the Himalayas, China, the ocean and the Majapahit Indosensian arcipleglo empire to the south.

To short circuit colonisation, lets say industrialisation happened earlier, at this end of Eurasia. China seems a likely candidate. Any others?

Any regional powers people would like to see on the table?

[FaxModem1]

I'd love to see how and if this affects Tibet.

As a sidenote, this sounds a lot like Republic City from the Legend of Korra.

[mr friendly guy]

That's highly speculative, but I will give it a go.

If China industrialised during the Ming, its likely the Manchu led Qing would have lost. Thus Manchuria which includes modern day Heilongjiang, Jiling and Liaoning. Also Inner and Outer Mongolia won't be there because they were annexed by the Qing. You can skip Tibet and Xinjiang. In fact a good portion of modern China's borders are done by conquest of the Qing or incorporation of Qing territories into China.

Now that doesn't mean the Ming would not conquer either. They did still claim Tibet (not sure about Xinjiang, but previous dynasties have). They most probably didn't give a shit about Manchuria. Here is where it becomes highly speculative whether the Ming would be as expansionist as the Qing. From what I understand most probably not, but then in this AU who knows. Different rulers in the ATL and all that.

[Simon_Jester]

One thing that bears remembering is that industrialization brings with it a lot of upheaval. For example, more demand for food equals more land brought under cultivation, and foreign crops introduced that can grow on soil unsuitable for native crops. Since the local population often does not know how to farm the new crops safely, or are in such a hurry to make a quick buck selling something that they farm unsustainably, this can have major knock-on effects.

I recently read 1493 by Charles Mann, which talks about this a lot in the context of China, and how the Qing dynasty was essentially one long period of disastrous economic and ecological upheaval, caused in large part by things like new crops cultivated on hillsides bringing about major deforestation and erosion of the hills, with flooding as a result.

Or in the context of Britain, the Industrial Revolution was not an unmixed good. There was a period of roughly 150-200 years during which the average British citizen was poorer, sicker, more distressed, and with fewer legal and social protections than they'd had during the 1600s and earlier. Changes in agriculture drove a huge number of peasants off their lands to essentially work themselves to death under miserable conditions. The result was that Britain was able to industrialize thoroughly, rapidly, and ruthlessly- but a lot of actual Britons suffered.

It wasn't until the late 19th and early 20th centuries that rising standards of living brought about by industrialization finally got so high, and unrest among the laborers got so intense, that the benefits of modernity really started to outweigh the drawbacks.

So it's not as simple as saying "more technology" equals "better." Or even "a country with more technology" equals "dominant," if the side effects of technological change have got it desperately busy dealing with 'natural' disasters and civil unrest.

[madd0ct0r]

the wife had had enough wine I was able to get her to comment:

she reckons that 1) once you've got the preconditions it's a matter of enough small events triggering a critical mass
2) another factor she reckons is useful is the northern winters resulting in enforced free time
3) is the agricultural productivity needs to be high to free up people
4) rice is a bugger for that, but american rice farming is industrialised, so there's def potential there for a few eccentric lords and entrepenuers to have a few research projects.

[madd0ct0r]

haha!

In 1962, Dr. Peter Jennings made 38 crosses of various varieties at IRRI. The eighth was between a Chinese dwarf variety known as Dee-geo-woo-gen (DGWG) and a tall variety from Indonesia, Peta. This eighth cross was promising, but only 130 seeds were produced. How those 130 seeds became the famous IR8 variety was a fascinating process –
The 130 seeds were planted in pots to produce the first generation (F1) of plants. All were tall.
The F1 seeds were planted and produced about 10,000 second-generation (F2) plants. One-quarter of those plants were dwarf. That meant that dwarfism was controlled by a single gene in the DGWG variety, making the job of producing a commercial variety a lot easier. Dr. Jennings was so excited, he cabled the good news to Beachell in Texas. "That's when we knew we had it!" Beachell recalled later. It was so exciting that IRRI was able to recruit Beachell to join them in 1963 and Dr. Jennings left to pursue other studies.
All of the tall plants from the F2 generation were discarded, and the short plants were planted to become the F3 generation.
From the F3 plants, Beachell used his plant judging skills to select 298 of the best individual plants. Seeds from each of those plants were planted in individual "pedigree rows" to produce the fourth (F4) generation.
In that F4 generation, Beachell again selected the best individual plants. In row 288, the third plant in looked the best to him. He dubbed it IR8-288-3 and this F5 plant became the source for the revolutionary variety that became known simply as IR8.
This one seed line eventually produced uniform plants that were about 120 cm tall with strong stems that held huge heads up even when heavily fertilized. IR8 matured in 130 days, as opposed to 160-170 days for traditional varieties. Traditional varieties were averaging around one ton of rice per hectare of land (a hectare is 2.5 acres). In 1966, a young Indian IRRI agronomist, S. K. De Datta, tested the IR8 variety under different fertilizer conditions. He was amazed with the results – the IR8 rice produced around 5 tons per hectare with no fertilizer and rose to almost 10 tons with 120 kg of nitrogen per hectare. That was 10 times the traditional rice yield.

there's your agricultural revolution baby! An eccentric genius working for the Marajaphit Emperor is tasked with getting more rice from the empire's islands. Noticing tall varieties fall over in the wind, he tries crossbreeding with dwarf species collected from around asia. One set of crosses showed particular promise. A few decades, several dodgy merchants and a couple of royal intrigues later, rice production across Asia is beginning to boom, and with it, urbanisation.

[madd0ct0r]

now, what is happening in the invidiaul countires?
The first industrial revolution really starts to take off in 1700, but by 1600 colonisation has already started (just), so lets take that as a good point to allow western traders into the mix too:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=08&region=sse

Burma - period of united and divided kingdoms
Cambodia - contested cambodia
Laos - Lan Xang kingdom
Malaysia - rise of the malay state
Thailand - Ayudhya kingdom
Vietnam - independent period
Indosenesia - rise of Islamic kingdoms

well, that's not that informative.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/indochin.html
full credit to: Piero Scaruffi

pulling out the 50 years either side of our 1600 marker:

1550: Tabinshwehti of Burma dies and is succeeded by his enemy Bayinnaung
1555: the Burmese king Bayinnaung conquers Ava
1556: the Burmese king Bayinnaung conquers Chiengmai and unifies Burma
1556: First Portuguese settlement in Timor
1558: the Burmese king Bayinnaung invades the kingdom of Lan Na in Thailand
1568: the sultanate of Bantam is founded in West Java (Indonesia) by a Muslim, Hassan Udin
1569: Burmese king Bayinnaung conquers the kingdom of Ayutthaya in Thailand/Siam
1570: Trinh Kiem of Annam dies and the kingdom is divided between the three families of Mac (in Tongking), Trihn (Thanh Hoa) and Nguyen (Hue)
1571: Spain establishes its colonial capital in Manila (Philippines)
1574: Burmese king Bayinnaung invades the kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos) but is defeated
1575: Burmese king Bayinnaung invades the kingdom of Laos for the second time and installs a puppet king
1581: Kyai Ageng Pemanahan founds the second kingdom of Mataram (Central Java)
1581: Burmese king Bayinnaung dies having conquered most of Burma and Thailand, and is succeeded by Nanda Bayin
1584: king Naresuen/ Pra Naret regains Siam's independence from Burma, with capital at Ayutthaya
1587: the first British visitor arrives in Burma, Ralph Fitch
1591: Laos declares its independence from Burma under king Nokeo Koumane with capital in Vientiane
1592: Laos' king Nokeo Koumane defeats Burma's king Nanda Bayin
1592: Trihn Tong reconquers the Tongking (Hanoi) from the Mac and reunites north Vietnam, while the Nguyen rule from Hue on Annam (and also on Champa)
1593: Trinh Tong of Annam moves the capital back to Hanoi
1594: Siam/Thai's king Naresuen invades Cambodia that becomes a Siamese protectorate
1595: Jan-Huygen van Linschoten published detailed instructions for navigating to the East Indies
1595: The first Dutch expedition reaches Indonesia, commanded by Cornelis de Houtman (the trip takes 14 months and costs the lives of 100 sailors)
1597: The first Dutch expedition returns from Indonesia (two years and four months later after leaving, and with only 89 of the original 249 men)
1598: Jacob Van Neck leads a Dutch expedition that reaches Indonesia in "only" six months
1599: Toungoo in Burma rebels against king Nanda Bayin, kills him and conquers his capital Pegu (southern Burma)
1599: the East India Company is established by Britain
1600: Nguyen Hoang secedes from the Trinh in Annam (north Vietnam)
1600: Portuguese mercenary Philip de Brito occupies the Burmese port of Syriam
1601: James Lancaster leads the first British cargo to the East Indies (the trip takes 14 months one way) and establishes a British factory at Bantam (West Java)
1602: the Dutch East India Company (VOC, Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie) is established by Holland
1605: Gowa in the island of Celebes/Sulawesi (Indonesia) converts to Islam
1605: Anaukpetlun becomes king of Ava in upper Burma
1607: Aceh (north Sumatra)'s sultan Iskandar Muda Shah launches a campaign of conquest in Sumatra and Malaysia
1608: Holland opens a factory at Ayuttaya in Siam/Thailand
1609: A Thai delegation travels to Holland, the first Thais to set foot in Europe
1610: Holland opens a factory in Arakan (western Burma)
1611: The British established diplomatic relationships with Siam
1613: Ava's king Anaukpetlun of northern Burma captures Syriam and executes Toungoo's king Nat Shin Naung and the Portuguese mercenary Philip de Brito
1613: Nguyen Phuc-Nguyen ascends to the throne of Hue/Annam (Vietnam)
1614: Macao-based Jesuits expelled by Japan migrate to Faifo, the main port of the kingdom of Hanoi/Tongking (north Vietnam)
1615: Ava's king Anaukpetlun of northern Burma captures Chiengmai from Burma
1617: Jan-Pieterszoon Coen is appointed governor of the VOC in Indonesia
1618: Burma seizes Chiengmai from Siam while Cambodia declares its independence from Siam
1619: the Dutch found Batavia (Jakarta) and invite Chinese immigrants to develop it
1620: War erupts between the Nguyen of Hue/Annam and the Trinh of Hanoi/Tongking in Annam (north Vietnam)
1620: Aceh (north Sumatra) conquers Perak in Malaysia
1621: Mataram (central Java) sultan Sunan Agung embark on a holy war of territorial expansion in Indonesia
1625: Mataram (central Java) conquers Surabaya and controls most of Java
1629: Mataram (central Java) attacks the Dutch in Batavia but is defeated
1629: Melaka and Johore unite to defeat Aceh and stop its expansion in Malaysia
1629: Ava's king Anaukpetlun of northern Burma is murdered and succeeded by his brother Thalun
1630: Pya Sri Worawong/Prasat Tong seizes power in Siam
1632: Japanese immigrants are massacred in Siam
1632: Hendrik Brouwer is appointed governor of the VOC in Indonesia
1633: Holland imposes a blockade on Melaka
1634: Holland opens a factory in Arakan (West Burma) and Ayuttaya (Siam)
1635: Holland opens its first factory in Burma at Syriam (under Ava's king Thalun of northern Burma)
1636: Antonie van Diemen is appointed governor of the VOC in Indonesia
1636: Iskander Muda Shah dies and the northern Sumatran sultanate of Aceh begins to decline
1637: Holland opens a factory in Cambodia
1637: Souligna-Vongsa seizes power in Laos
1639: Holland signs a treaty with Aceh (north Sumatra) to allow them to trade with Perak in Malaysia
TM, ®, Copyright © 2005 Piero Scaruffi All rights reserved.
1637: Soulinga Vongsa restores the kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos)
1639: Mataram (central Java) sultan Sunan Agung embark on a holy war against the two non-Muslim regions of Balambang (Sulawesi) and Bali but fails to take Bali that remains Hindu
1641: Holland conquers Melaka/Malacca in Malaya from Portugal, beginning the decline of the city and becoming the leading power in Indonesia
1641: Holland opens a factory in Laos
1641: Taj ul-Alam becomes the first female ruler (sultana) of Aceh (Indonesia)
1642: Dutch sailors discover a shorter route to the East Indies than the one used by the Portuguese
1645: VOC's governor Van Diemen dies
1645: Mataram's (central Java) sultan Sunan Agung dies and is succeeded by Amangkurat I
1646: sultan Agung of Mataram conquers all of Java except Bantam and Batavia (West Java)
1647: Britain opens its first factory in Burma at Syriam
1648: Ava's king Thalun of northern Burma dies and is succeeded by his son Pindale
1650: Holland and Britain trade Banda in Indonesia for Manhattan in America

[biostem]

You mentioned "steampunk" in your OP - just how advanced is this tech - I mean, are we mainly just talking about things like steam railroads and possibly cars/tractors, or are we talking steam-powered automatons and flying vehicles?

[sarevok2]

Would the Principality of Bengal make for a plausible power in this timeline ? Technically not SEA but they border Burma and have history with them. They had a fairly modern firearm, artillery heavy military that could stand and fight a Western colonial fleet. A scientific and intellectual and administrative culture that made Bengalis the center of British run India. A timeline where Bengal did not fall due to internal politics but instead made a Japan like response to sudden arrival of Western ships in the region could be interesting.

[madd0ct0r]

Principality of Bengal dosen't emerge from the Mhugal empire until 1717, and I'm setting the pivot (ie start of industrialisation) around 1600. That'd require the indosenisan rice revolution to have happened quite some time earlier, to generate the food surplus necessary for urbanisation.

Back in the greenpunk thread, we established that water and treadmill powered factories predated the steam engines. So the conditions for those factories (urbanization and unskilled labour) need to be present. Time line above has 1634 and 35 Holland is opening factories in Burma, (the steam engine dosen't go beyond coal mine pumps in the UK until 1712). So, clearly we're not pushing the envelope much there.

Greenpunk was a straight science experiment, and ended with half the tropics enslaved on rubber plantations to feed fuel hungry Europe. This time I'd like to go crazy steampunk, since reinting the tank in Vietnam would still look like a tank. Phsysics don't change.

Let's say in this world, odd individuals are born with an uncanny knack for machines, capable of building stuff that works, but few others could understand it.

[Simon_Jester]

Are we talking stuff that would work in real life but is just... hard to calibrate/balance/manufacture to an acceptable standard of precision? Or are we talking outright fanciful mad science a la Girl Genius?

In the former case, well, we get real life technological development, plus or minus a little. In the latter, things become unpredictable because you're introducing 'technology' that boils down to "a wizard did it."

...

As to the Mughal Empire, I suspect that the social disruption caused by the rice revolution and new technologies would cause serious problems for them during the reign of Aurangzeb (1658-1707). Historically, Aurangzeb was much less tolerant than his predecessors and struggled to put down peasant revolts and religious uprisings. While his personal bugaboos (like outlawing drinking and gambling as un-Islamic) won't be seriously affected by having the Industrial Revolution blowing up in the middle of his territory, the knock-on effects are likely to destabilize his government.

Aurangzeb may have the personal energy and competence to hold his empire together, but at the very least, the disintegration of the Mughal Empire will be even more abrupt and final after his death.

[madd0ct0r]

I'm expecting the chaos of that region to be a promoting factor in industrial development yes

At the moment I'm thinking less the extremes of girl genius "These aren't MY subterranean robot whales" or dystopian wars and more like jules verne, his dark materials, command and conquer tiberium sun and timeline 300.

girl genius and dystopian wars are both the natural outcome of a steampunk society progressing for a hundred years or more. I'm after stuff that's a little more recognisable but with elements 1) from the explosive experimental stage when no-one was sure what might work, and 2) rare but characterful units drawing on the symbolisim of local mythology, without actually being as obvious as a 'clockwork dragon'

eg

Oooh! Cambodian Apsara weaving through rocket trails towards a lumbering Thai Mammoth tank, Laotian Naga-suits swirl up to the edges of Viet Chim-Lac, while Champa Garuda Stalkers carefully position in ambush. To the north, the clockwork empire grinds on while airships from the east gather in front of sunlight storm clouds.

[madd0ct0r]

Onto the laws of physics.

They aren't kind to steampunk. There's certain factors around energy density, thermal losses, friction and material strength that tend to kill crazier projects. The two things that did work in favour of silliness was fuel consumption vs payload favouring huge ships and zepplins.

So, in this version of the world, magic exists. If the universe is a giant unfolding piece of clockwork, magic is the oil that keeps it running. It's nothing as overt as runes or fireballs cast by bearded mystics muttering under their breath. It simply means that certain forms, certain arrangements of matter, find it easier to operate then they should. Fires burn a little hotter, metals slide a little easier. As long as entropy increases, magic will help it along.

The laws and guidelines of Ether, as dictated by Alexander D'Rhodes, Jesuit Scholar:
1) Ether is old. As old as the universe in fact. It did not favour the creation of beasts and monsters similar to those of legend, they were simply the ones that fit the opportunities best. The monsters did exist, but were rare and are getting rarer. Many modern marvels fit the shape of these legends because these shapes proved effective at drawing magic towards them. Honey will eventually settle to fill any bowl, but a smooth ceramic curve is faster then a tall thin tube. At the same time, some scholars suggest that freed of slow adaptation following the creator's blueprints, Man might yet find wholly new and unique shapes that prove equally effective in utilisation.

2) Ether flows, slowly. It's present everywhere, hiding in the shadows of atoms, but there's not much of it anywhere. It is neither created nor destroyed, but where creative destruction [localised decrease in entropy with net increase in entropy] takes place, it very slowly draws it to it. Where a prolonged reaction takes place, it may have time to increase in complexity. It is conjectured the Earth leaves a trail of thickened ether concentration behind it it along its orbit, and it is to this the gradual increase of complexity of human thought (and life itself) may attributed.

3) Ether is conserved, and stretched thin. This is a reason giant constructs (or dinosaurs) make grander use of it then insects. Within a given volume of space, there are only so many particles of ether to interact with matter. It follows naturally that beings or constructs of larger volumes, if capable of channelling the effects, can make more use of this precious natural resource. This follows double for those that adopt a shape known to facilitate the capture and accumulation of etheric particles.

4) Unlike gravitic accumulation, etheric accumulation is not a simple linear process dependent on a single variable. It interacts strangely with other, barely understood forces, such as magentisim, gravitions and fluorescence. At the moment, it is more of an art then a science, and like the production of a good cheese, involves charm and flavour.

[madd0ct0r]

implications.

the scale thing is interesting. It implies things like giant factories or even towns may have intersting effects going on. If ether can be channelled by matter, it follows there are sites where the landscape promotes it (or depresses it). The former may be key human settlements since things like smiths would have been just that little bit more efficient. Feng shui may have developed as a trial and error method of harness effects.

[biostem]

I'm a little confused - the thread title mentions "Steampunk", which IMO bring to mind images of 18th-19th century technology accomplishing feats that are more closely associated with modern day or outright impossible feats, but your latest posts seem to just drop that for straight-up magic.

I always interpreted "Steampunk" as still requiring some sort of technological framework, but ignoring pesky things like needing to haul tons of fuel around or having to concern oneself with conventional material strengths/limitations.

Is there some sort of "super fuel" which would, for instance, allow a locomotive to cross all of China without the need to refuel or take on more water? Could engineers create a clockwork man that can follow verbal commands, using just gears, cogs, and so forth, in this setting?

In general, I have no problem with accepting a fantastic setting, as long as it has some clearly laid out operating rules...

[madd0ct0r]

I always interpreted "Steampunk" as still requiring some sort of technological framework, but ignoring pesky things like needing to haul tons of fuel around or having to concern oneself with conventional material strengths/limitations.

Is there some sort of "super fuel" which would, for instance, allow a locomotive to cross all of China without the need to refuel or take on more water? Could engineers create a clockwork man that can follow verbal commands, using just gears, cogs, and so forth, in this setting?

In general, I have no problem with accepting a fantastic setting, as long as it has some clearly laid out operating rules...

that's kind of the effect of ether. I've called it magic becuase I'm honest with myself, but it's specifically to allow you ignore pesky things like fuel density and conventional material strengths. Clockwork man is possible, but limited to programed commands. Something the size of a house could hold a pretty good conversation, but the first one in existence works in insurance, so why would you want to?
Superfuel is possible, but would require refineries. The train has condensers running along carriage roofs to harvest rain and moisture from the air and smoke as it passes over.

[Simon_Jester]

My recommendation on the effects of ether?

It would be better to codify and specify this by technology. Explicitly use "etheric" or "etherics" or whatever to describe the theory behind it (insofar as this is understood by the practicioners). Thus "etherically charged fuel" is what allows a locomotive to ascend and descend the Himalayas eight times on a single tender full of coal and a funny-looking battery analogue taking up a quarter of the space the boiler used to occupy. "Etheric tubes" are behind improbable feats of computing in a robot minion.

[Corvus 501]

Gunnerkrigg Court by Tom Siddell sounds like this, though with more outright magic, as apposed to magically enhanced technology. In fact, the magiteck in the story seems mostly to be technologically enhanced magic, as apposed to the other way around. The magic that the Court uses is called etheric science, which looks like a more controlled and analyzed than normal (non Court) of magic, if that is at all prevalent.

[madd0ct0r]

Thanks! I'll check it out

[madd0ct0r]

research has continued on the historical side:

We're looking at about 1650:


Li Tana in "Nguyen Cochinchina" Table 1 describes the Japanese Shuin-Sen (Red Seal Ships) trading destinations in South East Asian over 1604-1635: Anam, Tongking, Champa (replaced by Cochin China in 1609), Cambodia, Sian and Luzon

In 1635 Japan instituted it's famous closed borders, and the Red Seal ships ceased to have approval. A limited number of forgien ships were allowed to dock, however:

Table 2 (Chinese Junks, trading goods from SEA to Japan, 1647 to 1720) names the following destinations: Tongking, Quang Nam, Cambodia, Siam, Patani, Malacca, Jakarta, Bantram. Elsewhere she mentions Chinese junks were already trading in Batavia, Patani and Singgora (Songkhla) and by 1695 Manila , Macao and France in addition to previously mentioned names. Incoming trade into Quang Nam included Borneo, Palembang, Panang and ivory. The Dutch and English were also sniffing around, with the Dutch later trading silk from Tongking to Japan and the English only turning up in court cases or murdered by their own Maccasser/Javanese/Malay mercenaries. There is sugar trade between Taiwan and Japan in 1663, possibly from Dutch Plantations?

As the map shows, Vietnam was divided into ~ 4.5 countries. There is North Vietnam, Tongking, located around Hanoi, poor, famine prone and disease stricken. There is 'South' Vietnam, Dang Trong, aka Cochinchina, created when a noble family was expelled from the north Vietnamese court two hundred years earlier. It is smaller and much less populated then North Vietnam, but with an economy based on trade, well armed with Portuguese cannon (now cast locally), rich and getting richer. The agricultural land is poor, and many rice fields have been repalced with mulberry (for silk) and sugar cane, relying on imported rice from Cambodia.

The hafl country is inside Dang Trong, the port of Hoi An, one of the main trade hubs in SEA. It was actually founded by Chinese fleeing a change in emperor, and they form a distinct cultural enclave, albeit one on very good terms with the Dang Trong nobles with loans and marriages flowing both ways. Hoi An often appears in the trade tables as a destination in it's own right, but it is located in Quang Nam and accounts for that name too. Hoi An, and Quang Nam are located in the north of Cochinchina, near the border of the 3rd country, Annam.

I'm not sure what was happening in Annam at the time, but given nearly a century of warfare between the other two states above and below it and Champa invasions prior to that and a distinct lack of agency points to later on a few hardy subsistence farmers.

In the South remains the rump of Champa, which used to extend all the way up to Tongking. Champa is not Chinese influenced the way the rest of the Vietnamese countries were, and is much more Indian in flavour. Shiva Hindu's originally, they steadily converted to Islam over the 15th-17th century, led by inter-marrige with the Aceh Sultantate (northern Sumutra). Li Tana's book describes the Champa as often the aggressors against the Viet, invading as far as Hanoi, but normally being pushed back beyond their own borders, steadily losing ground. They also seem to have had the typical mix of war and trade with Cambodia. It is my personal belief that many of the Champa peasant farmers just remained in place as the upper and middle class Vietnamised, explaning why many viet in modern central vietnam have dark curly hair and Indian skin and body hair.

That above map also has a bunch more names I still know nothing about.

Finally, some trade poetry to displace the dry weight:

From Siam: petre, sapan, lac, necarie, elephant's teeth, tin, lead, rice
From Camboja: camboia, benjamin, carldamons, wax, lac, necarie, coyalaca and sapanwood, dammar, buffalo's hides, deer skins and nerves, elephant's teeth, rhinoceros's horns ect.
From Batavia: silver brimstone, petre, coase bastaes, red and white, vermilion
From Manila: silver, brimstone, sapan, cowries, tobacco, wax, deer nerves ect

[madd0ct0r]

Talking it over with a malaysian friend.

1) pirates

2) the tech tree goes something like:
a) more effective food production
b) pop surplus leads to urbanization
c) leads to economic specialisation and competition
d) that plus denser market makes trade more efficient
e) increasingly tangled web of sail trade routes develop, delivering new ideas and innovations - PIRATES
f) return to c). centralisation leads to first factories powered by water mill or similar
g) short term shocks like armies camping in area, and constant pressure from construction, ceramics, shipbuilding and charcoal making start to denude the accessible forests, coal starts to become more widely used
h) expansion of coal mining feeds over into metal mining with technologies bleeding between mines
...
i) return to f) With the development of Watt's engine, steam powered factories start to become economic. Things really take off.

[Treknobabble]

I always interpreted "Steampunk" as still requiring some sort of technological framework, but ignoring pesky things like needing to haul tons of fuel around or having to concern oneself with conventional material strengths/limitations.

Is there some sort of "super fuel" which would, for instance, allow a locomotive to cross all of China without the need to refuel or take on more water? Could engineers create a clockwork man that can follow verbal commands, using just gears, cogs, and so forth, in this setting?

In general, I have no problem with accepting a fantastic setting, as long as it has some clearly laid out operating rules...

that's kind of the effect of ether. I've called it magic becuase I'm honest with myself, but it's specifically to allow you ignore pesky things like fuel density and conventional material strengths. Clockwork man is possible, but limited to programed commands. Something the size of a house could hold a pretty good conversation, but the first one in existence works in insurance, so why would you want to?
Superfuel is possible, but would require refineries. The train has condensers running along carriage roofs to harvest rain and moisture from the air and smoke as it passes over.

Given the setting, I'd recommend that you call the stuff "Qi." That way, the only changes to reality you need to make are 1) Feng Shui works, and 2) steam engines constructed according to principles of Feng Shui are capable of rivaling/exceding the efficiencies of Western-designed internal combustion engines.

This could result in an interesting dynamic between Western "scientific" design internal combustion engines and Eastern "mystical" design steam engines, and opens up the possibility of a story about somebody who tries to build an internal combustion engine according to the principles of Feng Shui.

[madd0ct0r]

Solid gold mate! Solid gold.

[AniThyng]

Wait wait in your timeline you have Malacca uniting with johor to fight off aceh yet later Malacca is a Portuguese possession? Seeing as Malacca was captured by the Portuguese in 1511 this seems awkward, unless you mean it was Portuguese Malacca the whole time. Based on the three sided war between Malacca, aceh and...johor, I think?. Hmm.

Anyway , has any sjw seen fit to tell you this is appropriation yet?

[AniThyng]

Well yeah okay so I went back and reread my history and indeed the Triangular war was between Portuguese Malacca, Acheh and Johor.

I guess the only other thing that I can nitpick is that it's the Malay Peninsular as there will not be a Malaysia until 1963, if ever.