All the chickens have died from ingesting too much sand apparently.
Now- what do you think the reporters are REALLY there for
This war coverage is driving me insane. 24 hours of repeating the same thing, the same questions, AGAIN and AGAIN. Ugh. No useful information, nothing.
"UK and US forces are trying to overcome resistance in 2 places in Iraq"
I just heard. Well whoop-de-fucking-doo. Better not let us have any idea where these two places are. It might help the Iraqis (like they don't where they're resisting)
You also have Rumsfeld getting up and bullshitting- saying that because the Iraqis had denied Um Qasr had been captured yesterday, their 'command and control' was 'eroding'. Right .... which is why I saw on the news today that Um Qasr hadn't been captured, and was in process of being 'secured'.
Two British helicopters from the aircraft carrier Ark Royal have collided in mid-air in the Gulf, killing all six British servicemen and a US officer on board.
The Ark Royal's Captain Alan Massey said the deaths were caused by a "tragic accident", five miles from the Royal Navy's flagship.
He paid tribute to the "extremely professional" crew members killed and said: "As you can imagine the loss is being felt very intensely".
The Sea King Airborne Early Warning aircraft crashed at around 4.15am local time (1.15 GMT) and the Royal Navy has launched an investigation into the cause of the accident.
Some Iraqi troops have already surrendered to US-led forces. Strict rules govern the treatment of POWs, although not everyone can agree how they should be applied.
The sight of Iraqi troops waving white flags in surrender will offer encouragement to US and British military planners in the Gulf.
RAF Tornados have taken part in a series of massive air strikes on Baghdad.
The bombardment of the Iraqi capital comes as coalition forces advanced to the outskirts of Basra, Iraq's second largest city.
The Tornado GR4s were said to have targeted the radar defence systems that protect Saddam Hussein and his high command.
Once radar defences were damaged, other aircraft were following to deliver their payloads.
There is still fighting around Umm Qasr and American/British Forces are fighting outside Basrah despite the 51st divisions surrender reported earlier (memories of Goose Green there ). All this s on the TV right now, so no links at the moment I'm afraid.
It is being Speculated that Northern Iraq may be turned over to the Kurds after the war (like Israel after WW2) and that the Kurds in Turkey may be able to move there and relieve Turkey of that headache, the Presence of such small Turkish Forces tends to support they are there purely to prevent Kurds entering Turkey rather than trying to attack Kurds in Northern Iraq.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
Reports on the surrender of the 51st aren't verified- I just heard on BBC that the division was still fighting, but that the commander may have shot through *shrug*
Russian intel on why the two British helicopters crashed:
A radio intercept made last night at approximately 4:40 am indicated that two British helicopters were shot down by a "Strela" SAM system after flying into a SAM trap. It is believed that the two SAR helicopters were to retrieve the pilot of the combat plane downed during the earlier air strike. The number of dead and wounded is still being established. So far the coalition command did not report these losses. (1)
A radio intercept made last night at approximately 4:40 am indicated that two British helicopters were shot down by a "Strela" SAM system after flying into a SAM trap. It is believed that the two SAR helicopters were to retrieve the pilot of the combat plane downed during the earlier air strike. The number of dead and wounded is still being established. So far the coalition command did not report these losses
This appeared at the end of that link:
Note:
While this article was translated the US Navy has confirmed that two British Sea Knight helicopters of the Royal Navy have crashed killing all onboard - 6 Britons and 1 American - a US Navy officer. The helicopters crashed at around 4:30 am. The official explanation for the loss was that two helicopters crashed into each other while taking off from a ship. It is interesting to note that during more than 25 years in British service there wasn't a single collision between the Sea Knights. The Royal Navy operates more than 300 Sea Knights and all helicopter pilots adhere to strict sets of rules during take-offs and landings from ships; rules that are designed to help pilots to avoid this type of collisions.
Interesting information. Of course, the first casualty of war is truth and I am taking the extremely sparse casualties reported thus far by the mainstream media with an *extreme* grain of salt. I'm sorry, but noone can expect me to believe that so far only 2 marines have been killed in combat, considering the fighting that's been happening for the past few days. The mainstream media has acquiesced to Pentagon requests that they not talk about KIA until the families are informed, IIRC- this could be an extremely convenient excuse to fudge the numbers.
I also find this Sea King (yes, that's Sea King, not Sea Knight- easy mistake though, I made it myself when I told my brother about it- of course I then immediately corrected myself, anal retentive that I am) collision to be ... well, it smelt like bullshit the moment I heard it.
According to intelligence reports, at Umm Qasr American and British forces have sustained 10 killed and around 40 wounded soldiers and officers. Additionally, the Iraqis have destroyed up to 8 British and US armored personnel carriers.
Makes sense. After all- you expect casualties when you report a place captured and then the next day it's reported that it actually is still contested. Not a peep from the mainstream.
During the past night a fuel supply convoy of the US 3rd Infantry Division was attacked by Iraqi special forces. Up to 7 fuel trucks have been lost in the attack. Three US soldiers were killed and nine wounded. Another three US soldiers are considered MIA and are believed to have been captured by the Iraqis.
Also unreported.
The coalition commander Gen. Tommy Franks demanded from the Air Force a maximum possible increase in the close air support of the ground forces. During a "radio-bridge" with the commanders of all units Gen. Franks expressed his concern with the mounting casualties and the stubborn Iraqi resistance. "We've just spent three days trying to capture one small town, so we can only guess what awaits us in Baghdad!" - angrily said the commander and demanded better aviation support to soften up the defending Iraqi forces ahead of the advancing coalition units.
For the past day the coalition losses ar up to 30 killed and around 40 wounded. Ten coalition armored vehicles were destroyed my land mines. At least two armored vehicles were destroyed by anti-tank weapons.
Possible counter-propaganda? If so, for what purpose? Well- you decide. I sure as hell don't know what to believe.
(yes, that's right, *counter* propaganda. Because if you stick with the mainstream for your news you're not going to get jack shit information. Long live the internet.)
BoredShirtless wrote:Russian intel on why the two British helicopters crashed:
A radio intercept made last night at approximately 4:40 am indicated that two British helicopters were shot down by a "Strela" SAM system after flying into a SAM trap. It is believed that the two SAR helicopters were to retrieve the pilot of the combat plane downed during the earlier air strike. The number of dead and wounded is still being established. So far the coalition command did not report these losses. (1)
You know, that would hold some water, if they had been anywhere near the Enemy at the time. The fact that British Minesweepers were able to launch rescue efforts immediately as they were practically on top of the crash site should tell you all you need to know about the veracity of your report. Also they are not SAR helicopters, the Heli's involveds were AEW varients.
Some thought shows these 'intercepts' to be nowehere near the truth.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
Rob Wilson wrote:
You know, that would hold some water, if they had been anywhere near the Enemy at the time.
Not that I'm taking sides, because war's are always full of shit- but how do we know where these choppers were?
The fact that British Minesweepers were able to launch rescue efforts immediately as they were practically on top of the crash site should tell you all you need to know about the veracity of your report. Also they are not SAR helicopters, the Heli's involveds were AEW varients.
Some thought shows these 'intercepts' to be nowehere near the truth.
What were two AEW helos doing operating so close together that they could collide? EDIT: apparently, BBC reports that one was going out, and one was coming in .... (guarded skepticism)
Considering the total information blackout we're getting from the mainstream- saying much without actually telling anything at all, I really don't think there's much difference in between the two sides.
US forces have targeted a radical Islamic group alleged to have links to the al-Qaeda movement in a Kurdish-controlled area of northern Iraq, eyewitness say.
About 70 US missiles are reported to have struck the belt of hill country close to the Iranian border that is controlled by the Ansar al-Islam.
Both the US administration and the Kurds accuse the movement of being linked to Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.
Ansar commanders deny this - and accusations that they have links with the Baghdad government.
BBC correspondent Jim Muir says that the strikes were the start of a campaign expected to involve further missile and perhaps air strikes by the US.
This could followed by a ground assault carried out by the Kurdish faction which controls the surrounding area, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and by US special forces, our correspondent says.
Alleged leader charged
Ansar al-Islam preaches a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war and controls about a dozen villages and a range of peaks between Kurdish-held territory and the Iranian border.
The group formed in December 2001 after a merger between Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and an Islamic Movement in Kurdistan (IMK) splinter group led by Mullah Krekar.
On Friday, Mullah Krekar, alleged leader of Ansar al-Islam, was charged in Norway, where he has lived since 1991, with planning terror attacks.
Earlier this month, US Secretary of State Colin Powell told the UN Security Council that Ansar al-Islam had given safe haven to al-Qaeda members, including a senior Baghdad agent, and may have tried to make chemical weapons.
However Mullah Krekar has denied any links with either al-Qaeda or Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad.
This could followed by a ground assault carried out by the Kurdish faction which controls the surrounding area, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, and by US special forces, our correspondent says.
Ok, the PUK has now put itself in our books as someone to hand the
spoils of war out to since they went into battle with our troops,
unlike *cough* the fucking turks who kept flip-flopping on allowing
their airspace to US aircraft
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
BBC: Iraq denies setting any of it's oil fields on fire, instead saying that they're filling pits with oil and setting it alight to fuck up enemy vision devices.
LONDON, March 22 (Reuters) - Four U.S. soldiers were killed on
Saturday in central Iraq, according to a reporter from Britain's
Sky TV who was travelling with them.
Journalist Colin Brazier said the four reconnaissance scouts were
ambushed while driving Humvee jeeps at the head of the column.
"Rocket-propelled grenades were fired, one at each Humvee,
(they) killed both sets of occupants," he said in a brief live report
on TV.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
LONDON, March 22 (Reuters) - Four U.S. soldiers were killed on
Saturday in central Iraq, according to a reporter from Britain's
Sky TV who was travelling with them.
Journalist Colin Brazier said the four reconnaissance scouts were
ambushed while driving Humvee jeeps at the head of the column.
"Rocket-propelled grenades were fired, one at each Humvee,
(they) killed both sets of occupants," he said in a brief live report
on TV.
Rob Wilson wrote:
You know, that would hold some water, if they had been anywhere near the Enemy at the time.
Not that I'm taking sides, because war's are always full of shit- but how do we know where these choppers were?
ok then ask yourself this. The captain has just been on TV and stated the collision occurred 5 miles from the flightdeck. That's within visible distance, the rescue operation would have been visible to the newscrew there. If he said there was a rescue op, but they didn't see it, then why haven't they said anything? On top of that, why cover up the shooting down of SAR helicopters with a story about them colliding? It just makes them look worse. Can you give any reason that they would lie about it? What purpose does it serve?
Last edited by Rob Wilson on 2003-03-22 10:59am, edited 1 time in total.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
To all intents and purposes, the coalition Forces control Basra and it's outlying area's. There is still scattered opposition, but nothing significant.
On the oil Pools being lit around Baghdad, the only reason I can think of is to ruin Laser Designator beams with a high Particulate level in the air (rather than the News 'experts' idea's that it's to obscure pilot vision ). Though I don't know whether there is anywhere near enough at present. Can anyone else think of a plausible reason?
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
Rob Wilson wrote:
ok then ask yourself this. The captain has just been on TV and stated the collision occurred 5 miles from the flightdeck. That's within visible distance, the rescue operation would have been visible to the newscrew there.
In that case, I'd wait to see the footage.
Old adage: "Did you rob the 711?"
"Do you have it on tape?"
"Yes"
"Then why you asking?"
If he said there was a rescue op, but they didn't see it, then why haven't they said anything?
Undoubtedly, they should have taped such a rescue op taking place- hell, judging by the filler they've mostly taped so far, this should be news breaking stuff. If the footage isn't put on the TV after the families are informed of their loss (as is policy- Fox has footage of the Sea Knight going down apparently, but won't show it until later), I will be very suspicious.
On top of that, why cover up the shooting down of SAR helicopters with a story about them colliding? It just makes them look worse. Can you give any reason that they would lie about it? What purpose does it serve?
Because accidents are more acceptable than combat casualties. One is 'act of God'. The other is 'the enemy had your number'.
Rob Wilson wrote: Can anyone else think of a plausible reason?
If you dump enough heat into the area, I think you could ruin IR sights.
I know there are special smoke grenades out that send burning plastic
into the smoke to screw with IR sights..
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Four people have been killed in a suicide bombing at a checkpoint near the northern Iraqi town of Halabja.
The bomber drove up in a taxi and detonated the device, killing himself and a journalist filming nearby.
The journalist was Australian, the AFP news agency reported.
The other dead were Kurdish peshmerga fighters.
Nine people who were injured have been taken to hospital in Sulaymaniyah.
Khormal where the bombing took place is controlled by an Islamist group known as Komola.
Coming into Basra as part of a massive military convoy, I encountered a stream of young men, dressed in what appeared to be Iraqi army uniforms, applauding the US marines as they swept past in tanks.
US predictions that many here would choose to surrender rather than fight appear to have come true.
Leaflets had been dropped on the city, urging members of the 51st Iraqi Division to surrender, and I saw hundreds doing so.
Three members of an ITV News crew are missing after they came under fire on their way to the southern Iraqi city of Basra.
Efforts to find British TV reporter Terry Lloyd, cameraman Fred Nerac and local translator Hussein Othman are under way, following the attack at Iman Anas.
Up to 500,000 people in northern Iraq have fled their homes ahead of the US-led invasion - and the movement is continuing, a UN aid agency has said.
The UN Office of the Humanitarian Co-ordinator for Iraq (UNOHCI) estimated there were currently between 300,000 to 450,000 internally displaced people (IDPs) in the region.
It said most of them had fled the towns of Kirkuk, Erbil, Dahuk and Sulaymaniayh and were heading to outlying villages further north into the Kurdish-held areas.
US and UK forces have captured the the oilfields and other key sites in the southern areas of Basra and Nasiriya, officials say.
Huge numbers of troops are continuing their push towards the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, according to BBC correspondents with US and UK forces.
Key oilfields in the south of Iraq have been secured though at least nine oil wells had been set on fire by fleeing Iraqi forces, defence chiefs say.
Coalition forces say thousands of Iraqi soldiers and some commanders have surrendered to them.
But there has been some stiff resistance and fighting in various areas in the south.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
Rob Wilson wrote:
ok then ask yourself this. The captain has just been on TV and stated the collision occurred 5 miles from the flightdeck. That's within visible distance, the rescue operation would have been visible to the newscrew there.
In that case, I'd wait to see the footage.
Old adage: "Did you rob the 711?"
"Do you have it on tape?"
"Yes"
"Then why you asking?"
The Accident occured at 0150 local time. plus no one was watching when the accident happened. As to filming the rescue op, what exactly would they see from 5 miles away? The Newscrew say that they observed rescue operations. Which should do, don't you think? Even steady cam would be a bad picture zoojmed out to 5 miles
Vympel wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:On top of that, why cover up the shooting down of SAR helicopters with a story about them colliding? It just makes them look worse. Can you give any reason that they would lie about it? What purpose does it serve?
Because accidents are more acceptable than combat casualties. One is 'act of God'. The other is 'the enemy had your number'.
ONe makes it look like a legitimate operation that went wrong, the other makes them look uncompetent or lax, yet they use the latter. And as to covering up when the enemy have attacked, they haven't covered up the attack on Humvee's, or the attack with columns of Journalists and have alos been open about the fact that there is still fighting in held territories, so why lie about this? It makes no sense no matter how you look at it.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
Rob Wilson wrote:
The Accident occured at 0150 local time. plus no one was watching when the accident happened. As to filming the rescue op, what exactly would they see from 5 miles away? The Newscrew say that they observed rescue operations. Which should do, don't you think? Even steady cam would be a bad picture zoojmed out to 5 miles
ONe makes it look like a legitimate operation that went wrong, the other makes them look uncompetent or lax, yet they use the latter. And as to covering up when the enemy have attacked, they haven't covered up the attack on Humvee's, or the attack with columns of Journalists and have alos been open about the fact that there is still fighting in held territories, so why lie about this? It makes no sense no matter how you look at it.
Mmmahhhh alright you're too reasonable for me to persist in my position
Rob Wilson wrote:
Three members of an ITV News crew are missing after they came under fire on their way to the southern Iraqi city of Basra.
Efforts to find British TV reporter Terry Lloyd, cameraman Fred Nerac and local translator Hussein Othman are under way, following the attack at Iman Anas.
MSNBC is now reporting 6 western journalists (non-embedded) are now
missing/dead.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Vympel wrote:
Mmmahhhh alright you're too reasonable for me to persist in my position
Your right to be sceptical of reports, but that goes on all reports (including Internet sources that are not answerable for the veracity of their stories ). I try to get corroboration before I post a story on the War. I haven't found any Corroboration of the 'Intercept' story.
ADDENDUM : The last thing we need is people blindly accepting stories being spoon-fed to them. If a number of agencies (with differing Political and national backgrounds/leanings) report the same incident, then there's a good chance it's real.
Anyway, British military Protocol on covering up a story is NOT to lie, it's to say "no Comment" then refer them to the MOD (or slap an 'S' order on it ). Lies only erode the Journalists faith in the Military as an Information source and in the long term that's not a good thing for the Military.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
- This was from about ninety minutes ago. An-Nasiriyah has fallen, potentially rather earlier than that, and been secured. A bridge across the Euphrates has also been secured intact, and it is reputed that the four 3d ID troops killed by Iraqi RPG fire were lost on the east side of the Euphrates - though that was mentioned by one of the Fox embeds and I don't know how reliable it is. At any rate, we now have an open route into the central Mesopotamian Valley, and more immediately, to Al-Kut.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.
CNN correspondent with the 3-7 Cavalary was just on.
A company-sized element of Iraqis halted the 3-7th's movement
and so we called down an artillery strike on them to dislodge them,
but that wasn't enough, so we sent in the Apaches, and enough Iraqis
were still alive to give the AH-64Ds a tough time with anti-aircraft
weapons, so we called in a couple of A-10s...
Those are some brave sons of a bitches on the other side. Lets hope
enough of them survive to help rebuild Iraq.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
). All this s on the TV right now, so no links at the moment I'm afraid. 
). I try to get corroboration before I post a story on the War. I haven't found any Corroboration of the 'Intercept' story.
). Lies only erode the Journalists faith in the Military as an Information source and in the long term that's not a good thing for the Military.
