It was inevitable...What's Captain Sisko's worst fuck-up?

[Tsyroc]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting in regards to DS9 is that it wasn't Sisko's station to destroy. It was Bajoran property, and the Bajorans, despite their good relationship with the Federation, would not have appreciated the destruction of their only major station. .

It would have been nice to see the Bajorans cry to their Prophets after Sisko trashed the station and closed the wormwhole.

That's about all they could have done...unless they wanted to side with the Dominion and their former occupiers, the Cardassians.

[Vapthorne]

"From the looks of things, some of you have no idea about anything to do with Starfleet, the UFP, the Bajorans, the Cardassians or the Dominion."

You're right. We have no clue about Starfleet since most of us have at least a shred of these things called common sense. And unlike the Federation, we have some grasp of general military logic, which Star Trek has yet to remind us.

[Ender]

From the looks of things, some of you have no idea about anything to do with Starfleet, the UFP, the Bajorans, the Cardassians or the Dominion.

Once I have some time, I will answer anything before this post. (I don't have time to type something up now, I have to get off in about 20 mins, and it will take a lot longer then that to look up everything and quote what needs quoting)

Oh, this will be good.

[Patrick Degan]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting in regards to DS9 is that it wasn't Sisko's station to destroy. It was Bajoran property, and the Bajorans, despite their good relationship with the Federation, would not have appreciated the destruction of their only major station.

Tough. The station was a military asset. If your side cannot control it, then it cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy. Strategic doctrine dictates that the station gets destroyed whether the Bajorans whine about it or not.

In regards to the wormhole, Sisko did try to collapse it in 'In Puragtory's Shadow'. However, Founder sabotage stopped his efforts, instead strengthing the wormhole, rendering it nearly indestructable.

If a wormhole can be stabilised by technobabble means, it can be destabilised by technobabble means. Figuring out how is presumably what the function of his science officer is. He had the responsibiity to at least investigate the possibility of doing so and had plenty of time while he sat on his dead ass while Dominion reinforcements kept pouring into the Alpha Quadrant on a daily basis.

In regards to the assault in SOA, Dukat was the more foolish commander if you ask me. He allowed Sisko hour upon hour to strafe and weaken the Cardassian vessels in the lines, then attempted to make use of an obvious trap that was dealt with by a few Galaxy-class ships attacking the flanks. He botched things, despite having a fleet twice the size of Sisko's. Why not simply move to out-flank Sisko immediately, rather than letting his fleet be weakened?

Well, we certainly won't dispute the incompetence of Gul Dukat.

Finally, the aim upon reaching DS9 was not to capture it (at least, not once the urgency about the mines was revealed), but to destroy the anti-graviton emitter. A good old fashioned ramming tactic is probably what Sisko would have had to do, perhaps even if the Defiant had other ships supporting it. It always seems to appear that it takes a fleet of several dozen ships to break DS9's shields, so a ship by itself might have no choice but to ram the station.

Neither can we dispute the incompetence of The Sisko.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting in regards to DS9 is that it wasn't Sisko's station to destroy. It was Bajoran property, and the Bajorans, despite their good relationship with the Federation, would not have appreciated the destruction of their only major station.

Boo fucking hoo. That station gave the Dominion a platform to defend it's only supply line. And Bajor had signed a non-agression pack with the Dominion and the whole system and all near it were so to be conquered.

In regards to the wormhole, Sisko did try to collapse it in 'In Puragtory's Shadow'. However, Founder sabotage stopped his efforts, instead strengthing the wormhole, rendering it nearly indestructable.

After far too long.

In regards to the assault in SOA, Dukat was the more foolish commander if you ask me. He allowed Sisko hour upon hour to strafe and weaken the Cardassian vessels in the lines, then attempted to make use of an obvious trap that was dealt with by a few Galaxy-class ships attacking the flanks. He botched things, despite having a fleet twice the size of Sisko's. Why not simply move to out-flank Sisko immediately, rather than letting his fleet be weakened?

Of course Dukat was a moron. Even his second in command Dammar knew it. He was more concerned about his daughter liking him then the station about to be blown into free floating atoms.

Finally, the aim upon reaching DS9 was not to capture it (at least, not once the urgency about the mines was revealed), but to destroy the anti-graviton emitter. A good old fashioned ramming tactic is probably what Sisko would have had to do, perhaps even if the Defiant had other ships supporting it. It always seems to appear that it takes a fleet of several dozen ships to break DS9's shields, so a ship by itself might have no choice but to ram the station.

Then they should of had anti-matter filled ram ships.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Foul ups:

1. Not attempting to destroy the wormhole sooner.
2. Not having tight security. The fact that the Bashir-Founder was undetected and we never saw blood checks and phaser sweeps shows he's an idiot.
3. Not setting traps on DS9 like those phaser balls to kill any boarders. And having the station self-destruct.
4. When the wormhole was closed, which could mean the end for the Alpha Domminion, he brought it back!
5. Allowing Odo to cure the Changling. He and Bashir should have been locked up until she bit the dust.

[0.1]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting in regards to DS9 is that it wasn't Sisko's station to destroy. It was Bajoran property, and the Bajorans, despite their good relationship with the Federation, would not have appreciated the destruction of their only major station.

Hmmm, I think you did hit the nail on the head. Can't destroy the station, it's better that the Dominion send in reinforcements and just take over.

Finally, the aim upon reaching DS9 was not to capture it (at least, not once the urgency about the mines was revealed), but to destroy the anti-graviton emitter. A good old fashioned ramming tactic is probably what Sisko would have had to do, perhaps even if the Defiant had other ships supporting it. It always seems to appear that it takes a fleet of several dozen ships to break DS9's shields, so a ship by itself might have no choice but to ram the station.

Ram, you mean like the way the Cardassian ship rammed the shield and blew up when DS9 was taken? To take down the technobabble tech, the Feds would have to go thru the shield. Ramming the station just doesn't help.

[Eleas]

From the looks of things, some of you have no idea about anything to do with Starfleet, the UFP, the Bajorans, the Cardassians or the Dominion.

Once I have some time, I will answer anything before this post. (I don't have time to type something up now, I have to get off in about 20 mins, and it will take a lot longer then that to look up everything and quote what needs quoting)

Oooo, I've seen this before. What was it called again? Oh yes, now I remember. It was called "running away".

[Sothis]

What a lot of people seem to be forgetting in regards to DS9 is that it wasn't Sisko's station to destroy. It was Bajoran property, and the Bajorans, despite their good relationship with the Federation, would not have appreciated the destruction of their only major station.

Tough. The station was a military asset. If your side cannot control it, then it cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of the enemy. Strategic doctrine dictates that the station gets destroyed whether the Bajorans whine about it or not.

No, not tough. Destroying your allies bases in times of war does not a stable alliance make. It would push Bajor into the Dominion camp. Not to mention without the station suddenly the worth of Bajor (In the eyes of Dominion) drops dramatically, leaving the non-aggression pact pointless and the planet most likely lost.

In regards to the wormhole, Sisko did try to collapse it in 'In Puragtory's Shadow'. However, Founder sabotage stopped his efforts, instead strengthing the wormhole, rendering it nearly indestructable.

If a wormhole can be stabilised by technobabble means, it can be destabilised by technobabble means. Figuring out how is presumably what the function of his science officer is. He had the responsibiity to at least investigate the possibility of doing so and had plenty of time while he sat on his dead ass while Dominion reinforcements kept pouring into the Alpha Quadrant on a daily basis.

We have absolutely no idea how the strengthening of the wormhole's matrix worked. It was never fully explained. So saying it can be de-strengthened doesn't mean anything. It was said to be impervious to the strongest explosives (if I recall correctly).

As for Sisko sitting on his 'dead ass', you forget, there's a chain of command. The fault does not lie with Sisko for the lack of initiative in Starfleet Command.

In regards to the assault in SOA, Dukat was the more foolish commander if you ask me. He allowed Sisko hour upon hour to strafe and weaken the Cardassian vessels in the lines, then attempted to make use of an obvious trap that was dealt with by a few Galaxy-class ships attacking the flanks. He botched things, despite having a fleet twice the size of Sisko's. Why not simply move to out-flank Sisko immediately, rather than letting his fleet be weakened?

Well, we certainly won't dispute the incompetence of Gul Dukat.

Finally, the aim upon reaching DS9 was not to capture it (at least, not once the urgency about the mines was revealed), but to destroy the anti-graviton emitter. A good old fashioned ramming tactic is probably what Sisko would have had to do, perhaps even if the Defiant had other ships supporting it. It always seems to appear that it takes a fleet of several dozen ships to break DS9's shields, so a ship by itself might have no choice but to ram the station.

Neither can we dispute the incompetence of The Sisko.

Yawn.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

There were 1200 Dominion/Cardassian ships, up to 40% of which were Jem'Hadar ATTACK SHIPS. The Dominion does not have fighters. Those ships are the size of a Defiant.

Wrong. IIRC they were called fighters in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River"

And they are only what? 71 meters. Pathetic.

He has 632 ships + an unknown number of fighters. Fighters are not counted in fleet counts.

How do you know?

Nowhere. It's just something Mike Wong used to try to lower the number of captail ships in the UFP. Starfleet had 12000 Cap ships just before the start of the Dominion war. This count DOES NOT inculde fighters, shuttles, runabouts, tugs, shuttlepods or anything else. (Like member fleets, priv ships etc)

Lies. You take the high end of a NON-CANON quote (8000-12000) and you make up information never stated.


In reality, it's around 4000. They can build 40 ships a year (BOBW) and the ships last about a hundred years.

And yet, the Dominion could only spare 200 ships to attack DS9 with. (and the next ep we see after that is 5 months later)
so the Dominion goes from 200 spare ships for attack fleets, to 15000+ in the space of 5 months with only Cardassian systems to use.

They only needed 200 ships!


Do you understand deploying ships?! If they sent 2000 instead of 200, they need to get those extra 1800 ships from somewhere. And that somewhere will be a lot less defended.

What's better? Taking 200 ships you can afford to send that will win, or sending 2000 ships for pure overkill and most likely leaving somewhere undefended.

So Sisko is going to destoy the most important base in the AQ?
DS9 is the key to the AQ. Who ever controls it controls who can use the wormhole. So if they blast DS9 to hell as soon as the Dominion takes over, then when the UFP recovers the Bajor sector how are they going to base thier ships, control the wormhole and have a front line command base? They would have to biuld a new base.

And know they have given the Dominion a place to base their ships, control the wormhole and have a front line command base. They should have at the very least booby-trapped it.

He did a good job of disabling it. The Dominion had to move resources to fixing the station, which would have delayed their move into UFP space.

And if he actually booby-trapped it, Damar, Dukat, Weyoun and possibly the female changling would be smears on a wall, and the station could have taken out a lot of close ships.


And I doubt the resourcses to repair 1 base slowed their advance

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Whoops, didn't get the whole 'quote' thing sorted. Sorry for any confusion.

Corrected

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

From the looks of things, some of you have no idea about anything to do with Starfleet, the UFP, the Bajorans, the Cardassians or the Dominion.

Once I have some time, I will answer anything before this post. (I don't have time to type something up now, I have to get off in about 20 mins, and it will take a lot longer then that to look up everything and quote what needs quoting)

I can't wait.

[Sothis]

Whoops, didn't get the whole 'quote' thing sorted. Sorry for any confusion.

Corrected

As they say in Holland... umm... danke

[0.1]

Nowhere. It's just something Mike Wong used to try to lower the number of captail ships in the UFP. Starfleet had 12000 Cap ships just before the start of the Dominion war. This count DOES NOT inculde fighters, shuttles, runabouts, tugs, shuttlepods or anything else. (Like member fleets, priv ships etc)

Hmmm, that's an awful lot of ships. Given 12000 cap ships, and something like 150 member planets, that's roughly 80 cap ships per planet. Most impressive. Now, let us assume for a moment that the Klingons and Romulans (traditional ally/foe) have ships in close parity, that would put them at roughly that many ships as well, right? Cause otherwise, the Feds might have steamrolled those two empires long ago. (peaceful Feds notwithstanding, there is enough canon evidence of aggressive Federation admirals such that if there weren't cap ship parity at some levels, the Rommies and Klinks would've been crushed) So, the first premise is that the national fleets of the Klinks, Feds, and Roms are roughly equal in terms of quality if not quantity.

Ok, now, if I recall, the Dominion were taking on the entire Fed/Klink alliance and were actually winning. Let us say that the Klink/Fed each put in a quarter of their fleet on the various borders, they'd still have something like 12000 ships total (factoring in earlier Klink loses against Cardassians) facing the Dominion at the beginning of the war. So, what you're saying is that the Dominion must have had at least 12000 ships or more in terms of actual quality and spectacular military leadership to be beating up on both the Feds and the Klinks at the same time.

So, going back to the battle where 1200 Dom/Cardi ships went against 600 or so Fed ships. It would be fairly reasonable to assume that the reinforcements coming would deal the deathblow to the Fed/Klink alliance. The reinforcement consisted of 2800 Dominion ships.

Now, the if 2800 extra ships can deal the crushing blow to the Fed/Klink alliance. It can mean one of two things:

1) The losses on both sides were so great, that the pre war numbers of greater than 12,000 has been reduced significantly by more than half. This means that both sides have planets that are just wide open for the taking since where there used to be task forces of 80 ships defending each Fed planet, there are probably less than half that number now. This of course begs the question why the Rommies didn't just jump in at some point and take down either the Feds or the Klinks or even the Dominion since the Roms were generally uninvolved and had a much fresher fleet.

2) The Feds do not have nearly 12000 ships, and thus are able to maintain parity with the Roms even through significant losses on the Dominion front.

That's it for now.[/quote]

[Ender]

From the looks of things, some of you have no idea about anything to do with Starfleet, the UFP, the Bajorans, the Cardassians or the Dominion.

Once I have some time, I will answer anything before this post. (I don't have time to type something up now, I have to get off in about 20 mins, and it will take a lot longer then that to look up everything and quote what needs quoting)

It's been 24 hours and I'm still waiting for my "history lesson"

Where are you DarkStar?

[TheDarkling]

GAT: Confirm or refute DarkStar = Akira please.

[MKSheppard]

What we needed was Sisko to pull a Churchill and completely
destroy any Bajoran assets in the system the moment the
dominion invaded, to deny them the use of those assets,
much as Old Winston did to the French Fleet at Toulon
after the Fall of France......

[Ender]

GAT: Confirm or refute DarkStar = Akira please.

Why? It's not like I'm going to stop being an ass about it unless he starts acting logically.

Besides, IP proxies are easy.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

GAT: Confirm or refute DarkStar = Akira please.

I know who Akira is. He ain't Darkstar. But I'll check IPs. Wait a sec.

[TheDarkling]

Saying someone is Darkstar is a serious offence and you well know it, its forbidden under several Human rights articles .

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

IPs checked. Akira is NOT Darkstar. I repeat Akira!=Darkstar.

[Isolder74]

if Sisco couldn't scutttle the Station he should at least have done more than blast just the computer core. Taking out lifesupport may not be possible due to the large civi population but taking out the power systems, powering up all of the security forcefields, and placing big antipersonel mine is places like engineering would be all things he could have done.

[TheDarkling]

There we go then, I hope all the people who rushed for the lynching bask in my morally superior gloating .

Isolder74:Isnt engineering that little pit in Ops? or do you mean down by the fusion core.

[Master of Ossus]

IPs checked. Akira is NOT Darkstar. I repeat Akira!=Darkstar.

Good GOD!

In the words of Nute Gunray, "This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!"

[Akira]

From the looks of things, some of you have no idea about anything to do with Starfleet, the UFP, the Bajorans, the Cardassians or the Dominion.

Once I have some time, I will answer anything before this post. (I don't have time to type something up now, I have to get off in about 20 mins, and it will take a lot longer then that to look up everything and quote what needs quoting)

It's been 24 hours and I'm still waiting for my "history lesson"

Where are you DarkStar?

If I say I don't have time to type and post it, then it means I don't have time. I have 5 classes to do work for, I have 8 forums I need to look at and 3 RPGs to post turns in. I will get to it when I can.

Tell you what. It's 1.22pm here now. I have to be in class at 4. I am going to go get something to eat, save this thread to disk and type something up in that 2 hours. I will then have to post it at home if I can get on the internet tonight.

I am not running away from anything.