Star Destroyers' Garbage

[cmdrjones]

The thing Jones doesn't seem to get is that to start reverse engineering any tech more advanced then your, you'll have to examine the items with the tech and theories you already have avaible. Even in an optimal situation(aka pristine item, full manual and a defector aiding you) that will take time and when we comes to examples like he put you're rarely dealing with an optimal situation. Most likely the items are damaged in some way, manuals are probably incomplete or missing and you won't have access to people who know the tech.

To use a computar motherboard as an example, people from 1910 could probably figure out that worked by using electricy in some way, however the actual function of the board would be beyond their understanding and alot of the important components would be too small to see in any meaningfull detail with the equipment of that era.

And that's ignoring the fact that items might be toxic or otherwise dangerous.

Aha... ok. I'd say that B5 powers then could recognize the forms of SW technology far easier than the 1910 vs modern naval example for a couple reasons: #1 SW tech is made for ease of use, modularity and is for a galaxy wide civilization meant to be used by multiple species. It HAS to be idiot proof. BUT I think, that B5 powers will be even MORE lost than the 1910s Brits when it comes to applying that technology in any meaningful sense.
Let's take to motehrboard analogy a step further then.... so they can tell it runs on electricity and is some sort of communications device or data storage device, but will probably fry any working components if they try to hook it up to a power source or turn it on. Now with the B5 powers, they will be in the same boat except #1 they have entire industries devoted to this sort of thing, the 1910 Brit navy doesn't and #2 even if they DO ruin the SW tech or kill themselves they will learn certain things (much like the 1910s) like that computing power they didn't think possible IS possible and they will have some inkling of how these designs are meant to work. I didn't mean to imply that they could just fire up the junk and make workable tech out of it, only that they could fill in some theoretical gaps with the research done over a number of years.

[Elheru Aran]

Right... which means that at the moment, they basically have nothing. They have a bunch of used, spaced, possibly junked, possibly toxic, likely nonfunctional, Imperial trash. Juicy research material? Sure. Potential for technological development *directly* from said trash? Extremely low (unless Kosh comes along and goes 'oh hey here's how this works'). Potential for technological development derived from stuff they find out after studying said trash? Like, say they study a junked computer system, trying to make it work they come up with a new computing technology that works better than what they currently have? Sure. But not quickly. Probably take at least a few years, more likely decades. Directly replicating the technology? Oh hell no. *That* would require far closer technological parity.

[Lord Revan]

we have to remember that the Old Republic stood for at very least a millenia, possibly up to 25k-30k years depending what Obi-Wan meant by generation ("for over a thousand generations the jedi knights stood as the guardians of the Old Republic, before the dark times, before the Empire" from ANH), that's alot of time to develop and teach a galactic standard for certain types of technologies and we should also remember that the Galactic Republic or the Galactic Empire are not like the Imperium of Man from WH40k or the System Lord from SG1 where how technology works in privy to a select few. Basics for their technology would probably taught in any engineering school so you can't assume that SW tech is made in such a way that someone with no info on in the basics could repurpose those easily.

[Eternal_Freedom]

To echo Elheru with a touch more emphasis: Could the B5 powers learn useful stuff from the garbage? Certainly. Fast enough to make a difference against an Imperial campaign? Not a hope in hell.

[cmdrjones]

To echo Elheru with a touch more emphasis: Could the B5 powers learn useful stuff from the garbage? Certainly. Fast enough to make a difference against an Imperial campaign? Not a hope in hell.

im down with this, but, in the context of a story... wouldn't a narrative focusing on such a "manhattan project" type event be extremely dramatic and entertaining? even if doomed to failure? heck, ESPECIALLY if doomed to failure!

[Batman]

I'm thinking people are overly optimistic about what the B5 civilizations can actually learn from this. We're talking about a tech gap that makes Victorian England figuring out integrated circuits look feasible by comparison.

[Eternal_Freedom]

To echo Elheru with a touch more emphasis: Could the B5 powers learn useful stuff from the garbage? Certainly. Fast enough to make a difference against an Imperial campaign? Not a hope in hell.

im down with this, but, in the context of a story... wouldn't a narrative focusing on such a "manhattan project" type event be extremely dramatic and entertaining? even if doomed to failure? heck, ESPECIALLY if doomed to failure!

Honestly, if the Imperials are actually campaigning against the B5 powers, they may not have time to set up such a project beyond "we should start working on this."

[cmdrjones]

To echo Elheru with a touch more emphasis: Could the B5 powers learn useful stuff from the garbage? Certainly. Fast enough to make a difference against an Imperial campaign? Not a hope in hell.

im down with this, but, in the context of a story... wouldn't a narrative focusing on such a "manhattan project" type event be extremely dramatic and entertaining? even if doomed to failure? heck, ESPECIALLY if doomed to failure!

Honestly, if the Imperials are actually campaigning against the B5 powers, they may not have time to set up such a project beyond "we should start working on this."

Specifically in "Vae Victis" I have just the Death Squadron, not all of the Empire, and the Imperials have a considerable learning curve on just figuring out how to get around in the B5 galaxy, which will give them SOME time to work with... But you have a point, as the title should hint at in any case.

[cmdrjones]

I'm thinking people are overly optimistic about what the B5 civilizations can actually learn from this. We're talking about a tech gap that makes Victorian England figuring out integrated circuits look feasible by comparison.

I agree to a point. See above where I point out that reverse engineering lost tech is an olympic sport in B5 verse, but not in Victorian England, and that SW tech is meant to be user friendly. (Hence why nobody thinks it odd that a slave boy can build a robot fluent in 6 million forms of communication from spare parts, or that parts for the millenium falcons hyperdrive should be readily available on a gas mining colony in the middle of nowhere, or that Lukes X-wing firs rightup after being sumbmerged in swamp water for a couple days... try that with an F-22, to cite just a couple of examples)

[Elheru Aran]

Bespin is actually a large, well equipped facility for being in the middle of nowhere; Lando has little doubt that he can get the Falcon fixed.

Just because the tech is user-friendly doesn't mean that it's intelligible to someone from a tech level several magnitudes lower. Sure, maybe they can turn a switch and make it do something. Great. Can they make something that'll do the exact same thing with *their* own tech, just as efficiently? No.

It's like the difference between a Stone Age-cargo cult tribe on a little Pacific island, versus a 747 airliner or the Space Shuttle.

[Lord Revan]

the thing we have to remember as I've stated before the Old Republic was old even if Ruusan Reformation is now non-canon the Republic was still at least 1000 years old and Obi-wan Kenobi's line suggest 20 000 to 30 000 years old depending what you think he meant by "generation". That's more then enough to get parts to fit certain standards to make it fairly easy to use and Falcon isn't a custom build either it's modified freighter that avaible to public in fact in the legendaries that type the YT-1300 was fairly popular especially in the outerrim, As for the X-wing the fighter was (again in the legendaries) famous for being able to take a lot of abuse and still work.

Also we should also consider that Bespin is reliant on trade of it's economy and supplies so have a stock of spare parts for visiting freighters is in their best intrest.

[Simon_Jester]

If you dumped a pile of modern garbage into an Iron Age society, there are some things they could reverse engineer quickly. Such as, say, wheelbarrows or maybe pliers (don't know if those existed in classical times). This would make a lot of difference to the locals in general economic terms, but not a lot of difference in their ability to resist an invading army.

I honestly think that Babylon 5 people would not have much trouble working out how to use Star Wars hardware. It's not fantastically complex, you don't need years of graduate education to figure out how to operate it. But that's a huge distance from the amount of knowledge required to operate that technology. From what we see, there aren't really even that many people in the Star Wars galaxy who really understand the basic principles of their technology. Some, yes... but a lot of the work of building and maintaining things is done by enslaved droids.

[cmdrjones]

Bespin is actually a large, well equipped facility for being in the middle of nowhere; Lando has little doubt that he can get the Falcon fixed.

Just because the tech is user-friendly doesn't mean that it's intelligible to someone from a tech level several magnitudes lower. Sure, maybe they can turn a switch and make it do something. Great. Can they make something that'll do the exact same thing with *their* own tech, just as efficiently? No.

It's like the difference between a Stone Age-cargo cult tribe on a little Pacific island, versus a 747 airliner or the Space Shuttle.

This is an example (there are a few more posts above that cite the same thing, so I'm not just picking on Elheru here) of the mirror image of the argument that rabid fivers used to make about the shadows and vorlons having so many 100s of 1000s of years in space and therefore they cant POSSIBLY lose to the Empire and so on. I agree that the B5 powers are thousands of years behind the SW galaxy, BUT the analogy of the cargo cultists fails to hold water for a few reasons: #1 the B5 powers have mastered FTL travel and interstellar trade, they would instantly understand what Stardestroyers and imperial technology are FOR even if they couldn't operate it, let alone reproduce it. The cargo cultists OTOH didn't even understnad the basic physical principles behind the tech they were seeing, but were decent imitators. Give the B5 powers SOME credit for being advanced scientific powers. #2 Being that the tech is made to be user friendly and repairable across thousands of cultures spanning a whole galaxy (as was pointed out, Bespin has freighter parts that are plug and go for the Falcon) then the number of years between B5 and SW is PARTIALLY irrelevant because the SW galaxy may continually refine their tech, but they aren't making huge leaps and bounds anymore. In this case, it would be like a Babylonian bronze age culture that has discovered basic metal smelting running across technology from the Early roman Republic and something from the high middle ages. You can say: Well, the Roman tech is 3000 years ahead, so they can figure that, maybe, but the stuff from 1400 AD is 1500 years more, so there's NO way, but the technology of 300 BC and the technology of 1400 AD wouldn't be radically different from one another, (in terms of weapons and such. Yes I know about stirrups and changes to sailing technology and construction and so on and so forth, I am pointing out that most things are still made by hand, muscle and water power rule, and people still burn wood for heat, eat animals they raise themselves etc)

So, in sum, I think the B5 powers would gain significant advantages from salvaging these sorts of things, but I also agree that it would take decades if not centuries to reproduce SW tech, but even after a half a decade they should be able to upgrade their own tech a LOT just by proving to themselves that such technology exists and is possible to attain.

[cmdrjones]

If you dumped a pile of modern garbage into an Iron Age society, there are some things they could reverse engineer quickly. Such as, say, wheelbarrows or maybe pliers (don't know if those existed in classical times). This would make a lot of difference to the locals in general economic terms, but not a lot of difference in their ability to resist an invading army.

I honestly think that Babylon 5 people would not have much trouble working out how to use Star Wars hardware. It's not fantastically complex, you don't need years of graduate education to figure out how to operate it. But that's a huge distance from the amount of knowledge required to operate that technology. From what we see, there aren't really even that many people in the Star Wars galaxy who really understand the basic principles of their technology. Some, yes... but a lot of the work of building and maintaining things is done by enslaved droids.

Agreed for the most part. I think the pliers example is a little extreme, but I get where you are going.

Your second paragraph is the most intriguing because if we take that as fact then the imperials are REALLY screwed because they wont be able to maintain their own technology even IF the B5 powers immediately stopped fighting and joined them in the effort to do so. The engineering challenge would be just too great.

[Elheru Aran]

If you dumped a pile of modern garbage into an Iron Age society, there are some things they could reverse engineer quickly. Such as, say, wheelbarrows or maybe pliers (don't know if those existed in classical times). This would make a lot of difference to the locals in general economic terms, but not a lot of difference in their ability to resist an invading army.

I honestly think that Babylon 5 people would not have much trouble working out how to use Star Wars hardware. It's not fantastically complex, you don't need years of graduate education to figure out how to operate it. But that's a huge distance from the amount of knowledge required to operate that technology. From what we see, there aren't really even that many people in the Star Wars galaxy who really understand the basic principles of their technology. Some, yes... but a lot of the work of building and maintaining things is done by enslaved droids.

Agreed for the most part. I think the pliers example is a little extreme, but I get where you are going.

Your second paragraph is the most intriguing because if we take that as fact then the imperials are REALLY screwed because they wont be able to maintain their own technology even IF the B5 powers immediately stopped fighting and joined them in the effort to do so. The engineering challenge would be just too great.

Pliers are just blacksmith's tongs writ small. The capability to make them has been around for a long time.

As for the repair/reconstruction stuff... that really depends on two things: the knowledge base available to the Imperials, and their droid capabilities. If the engineering and maintenance staff are familiar with how the technology operates and the basic principles, they can probably figure out how to fix most issues even if they're short on droids. If their problem is more a lack of actual first principle knowledge, more just knowing which buttons to hit in which order, then yeah, they may have an issue. This is really something that's up to the author. It's worth noting that IIRC ISD's have a large library for educational purposes aboard...

[Simon_Jester]

Pliers are just blacksmith's tongs writ small. The capability to make them has been around for a long time.

OK, sorry about that. I was trying to come up with an example of something that required a bit of mechanical sophistication (use of a hinged set of grips to provide a firm grip on something you can't grab with your bare hands), and which could be easily duplicated with medieval tools, but which I couldn't think of obvious examples of from medieval times off the top of my head (so things like knives and forks are out)

[Eleas]

While the story itself isn't the most accurate, the online discussion surrounding Eric Flint's 163x series of alt-history novels is fascinating, and I think could serve as an inspiration for what you're trying to do here.

[cmdrjones]

While the story itself isn't the most accurate, the online discussion surrounding Eric Flint's 163x series of alt-history novels is fascinating, and I think could serve as an inspiration for what you're trying to do here.

Read the first in that series and It was a partial inspiration, yes.

I thought he gave WAY too much credit to the Americans in that one... Then again, I don't come from some holler in WV, so maybe there ARE pockets of rugged pioneers out there.

[Eleas]

No, it's pretty much wank and glosses over some really ugly shit on part of the Swedes among others. But I still found the concept intriguing and enjoyable.

[Treknobabble]

To echo Elheru with a touch more emphasis: Could the B5 powers learn useful stuff from the garbage? Certainly. Fast enough to make a difference against an Imperial campaign? Not a hope in hell.

That actually depends on how much effort the imperials are putting into their campaign. How much is the real estate owned by the B5 powers worth? If SW tech really is as far above and beyond standard sci-fi fare as most people around here seem to think, I don't see the imperials putting more than one or two star destroyers into our galaxy. If that's not enough to take down the sector, the sector is probably more trouble than it's worth.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That would depend upon the parameters of the crossover that the OP is planning. If it is indeed Death Squadron dropped into the B5 verse with no apparent way home, then the Imperial forces, and Vader, have every reason to conquer them quickly (to secure a base of operations, a supply chain, possible reinforcements, a technology base and so on) and no reason at all to wait (limited supplies, unfamiliar territory, etc). After one engagement that woudl reveal just hwo inferior the B5 forces are compared to Death Squadron, the Imperial commanders have even less reason to hold back.

Hence, any Imperial campaign will be over before any useful information is obtained from analysing the ISD's garbage. Unless of course the ships doing this "prospecting" are a remnant fleet trying the whole guerilla warfare thing. In that case it might actually be useful.

[Treknobabble]

That would depend upon the parameters of the crossover that the OP is planning. If it is indeed Death Squadron dropped into the B5 verse with no apparent way home, then the Imperial forces, and Vader, have every reason to conquer them quickly (to secure a base of operations, a supply chain, possible reinforcements, a technology base and so on) and no reason at all to wait (limited supplies, unfamiliar territory, etc).

Death Squadron = the Executor + 30-odd ISDs, right?

Are we dealing with the ones from canon, or the EU kind? Because based on observed performance, the ones from canon quite simply aren't the overpowering death machines some people make them out to be. In fact, they don't seem all that different from Ha'Taks or D'deridex. But I digress.

Anyways, securing a base of operations and a makeshift industrial base could be done more or less entirely without interacting with the B5 powers altogether. Even in our own solar system, while quite a few bodies could provide significant natural resources, most planets are uninhabited and uninhabitable. A great deal could be gained from strip-mining (or whatever) uninhabited systems. Interaction with the B5 powers would be sporadic at best and most likely accidental.

My general point is that the B5 powers would be more than capable of defending themselves against canonical Imperial ships, and wouldn't be worth the time of EU Imperial ships.

After one engagement that woudl reveal just hwo inferior the B5 forces are compared to Death Squadron, the Imperial commanders have even less reason to hold back.

After one engagement with a mouse, I would find even more reason to hold back because I realize that it isn't a threat. Why shouldn't things be comparable with a clash between EU Imperial ships and the B5 forces? To the ISDs, B5 ships would be like bees: things to be left alone if they mind their own business, but destroyed with impunity if they get too aggressive.

Hence, any Imperial campaign will be over before any useful information is obtained from analysing the ISD's garbage.

If there really is such an insurmountable asymmetry between the Death Squadron and the B5 powers, the B5 powers would be the only ones interested in waging a campaign.

Unless of course the ships doing this "prospecting" are a remnant fleet trying the whole guerilla warfare thing. In that case it might actually be useful.

Wouldn't any B5 force up against EU ISDs be considered "guerilla warfare"?

[Batman]

Are we dealing with the ones from canon, or the EU kind? Because based on observed performance, the ones from canon quite simply aren't the overpowering death machines some people make them out to be. In fact, they don't seem all that different from Ha'Taks or D'deridex. But I digress.

Canon alone gives us MT level firepower for 'light' turbolasers. I give you ESB and the asteroid field sequence...

My general point is that the B5 powers would be more than capable of defending themselves against canonical Imperial ships, and wouldn't be worth the time of EU Imperial ships.

Um, yeah, no. A pair of single figure MT proximity detonations killed a Sharlin (the best the Younger Races had to offer) and 500MT omnidirectional explosives could take out Shadow and Vorlon vessels. A 200 MW pulse cannon was apparently a credible threat to YR freighters.

[Treknobabble]

Are we dealing with the ones from canon, or the EU kind? Because based on observed performance, the ones from canon quite simply aren't the overpowering death machines some people make them out to be. In fact, they don't seem all that different from Ha'Taks or D'deridex. But I digress.

Canon alone gives us MT level firepower for 'light' turbolasers. I give you ESB and the asteroid field sequence...

4 megatons for the light turbolasers (based on the scene where the falcon gets jostled by a turbolaser hit). Based on Wong's scaling estimate, that gives you maybe 500 megatons for the big guns. If we instead go with an analogy between the yield of a surface-to-air missile (usually carries 50-150 kg of high explosives) and the yield of a surface-to-surface missile (usually carries 200-1000 kg of high explosive), that estimate gets reduced to around 80 megatons for the big guns. All well within standard sci-fi fare.

My general point is that the B5 powers would be more than capable of defending themselves against canonical Imperial ships, and wouldn't be worth the time of EU Imperial ships.

Um, yeah, no. A pair of single figure MT proximity detonations killed a Sharlin (the best the Younger Races had to offer) and 500MT omnidirectional explosives could take out Shadow and Vorlon vessels. A 200 MW pulse cannon was apparently a credible threat to YR freighters.

But we're only going to have a handful of imperial vessels here.

In a firefight, numbers matter more than anything else. Thirty imperial vessels against a combined fleet of hundreds? Canon vs canon, I'd bet on B5.

[Batman]

Are we dealing with the ones from canon, or the EU kind? Because based on observed performance, the ones from canon quite simply aren't the overpowering death machines some people make them out to be. In fact, they don't seem all that different from Ha'Taks or D'deridex. But I digress.

Canon alone gives us MT level firepower for 'light' turbolasers. I give you ESB and the asteroid field sequence...

4 megatons for the light turbolasers (based on the scene where the falcon gets jostled by a turbolaser hit). Based on Wong's scaling estimate, that gives you maybe 500 megatons for the big guns. If we instead go with an analogy between the yield of a surface-to-air missile (usually carries 50-150 kg of high explosives) and the yield of a surface-to-surface missile (usually carries 200-1000 kg of high explosive), that estimate gets reduced to around 80 megatons for the big guns. All well within standard sci-fi fare.

Ignoring the complete irrelevancy of that comparison, that gets you...80MT for a HTL for DEW...against ships that die to single figure MT omnidirectional explosions. My money is sure as hell not on the B5 side.

My general point is that the B5 powers would be more than capable of defending themselves against canonical Imperial ships, and wouldn't be worth the time of EU Imperial ships.

Um, yeah, no. A pair of single figure MT proximity detonations killed a Sharlin (the best the Younger Races had to offer) and 500MT omnidirectional explosives could take out Shadow and Vorlon vessels. A 200 MW pulse cannon was apparently a credible threat to YR freighters.

But we're only going to have a handful of imperial vessels here.

Every single one of which can ignore any reasonable amount of YR ships with impunity.