What to do about the Rohingya

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What to do about the Rohingya

Post by mr friendly guy »

I am sure we remember the Rohingya, a group of Muslims who live in predominantly Buddhist Myanmar (formerly called Burma). AFAIK they are not counted as citizens nor listed in the multitude of 135 ethnic groups that live in the multi ethnic nation.

They have recently been in the news due to persecution from the predominantly Buddhist populace of Myanmar. Even Aung Sung Suu Kyi has been lacklustre in defending them. No I kid you not. In an interview she tried to deflect the blame with what was happening NOW from the actions of the regular Myanmar citizens by blaming what the military junta did years before. That is she said the military junta made everyone paranoid, not trusting of people and that explains the persecution of the Rohingya.

Well refugees have been escaping by boat into other ASEAN countries reminiscent of the Vietnamese "boat people" that fled the turmoil of that region in the 1970s and 80s. Australia has weighed in when asked what we would do.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/m ... a-refugees
'Nope, nope, nope': Tony Abbott says Australia will take no Rohingya refugees The prime minister says, ‘To start a new life, come through the front door, not the back door’, and insists Australia is ‘a good international citizen’

Shalailah Medhora

Thursday 21 May 2015 13.09 AEST Last modified on Thursday 21 May 2015 16.38 AEST
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None of the more than 8,000 Rohingya refugees caught in a weeks-long standoff at sea will be resettled in Australia, the prime minister, Tony Abbott, confirmed on Thursday.

Overnight the governments of Indonesia and Malaysia agreed to give temporary shelter to the thousands of Rohingya Muslim migrants fleeing Burma and Bangladesh. And Gambia has offered to resettle all Rohingya refugees.

Some have been stranded at sea for weeks after Thai authorities closed a well-used trafficking route out of Burma and the people smugglers jumped ship and left their human cargo to starve.

The US has indicated it is willing to take some of the refugees, and the United Nations High Commissioner on Refugees (UNHCR) has urged Australia to work with its neighbours in finding a solution.

But the prime minister has closed the door on suggestions some could be resettled in Australia: “Nope, nope, nope.

“Australia will do absolutely nothing that gives any encouragement to anyone to think that they can get on a boat, that they can work with people smugglers to start a new life.

“I’m sorry. If you want to start a new life, you come through the front door, not through the back door.

“Don’t think that getting on a leaky boat at the behest of a people smuggler is going to do you or your family any good.

“We are not going to do anything that will encourage people to get on boats. If we do the slightest thing to encourage people to get on the boats, this problem will get worse, not better.”

Despite the firm words, Abbott insists Australia “has always been a good international citizen”.


The opposition leader, Bill Shorten, said Australia should engage more in the region.

“Labor supports regional resettlement – there is no change in that. We certainly do. But where there is an unfolding humanitarian crisis in south-east Asia, Tony Abbott’s ‘not my problem’ approach is disappointing,” he said.

Australia will be part of regional talks on people trafficking to be held next week, and the UNHCR has urged the country to cooperate with its neighbours.

“We hope Australia will be among countries that work towards there being a collective approach towards dealing with this,” a spokesman, Adrian Evans, told ABC Radio.
“Really, the go-it-alone approach – and we’ve seen what’s been going wrong with that in south-east Asia over the last week – that go-it-alone approach simply doesn’t work.”

The Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young said “turning a blind eye” is not a solution.

“The asylum seekers, many suffering from starvation, are in desperate need of assistance, and Australia, as a regional leader, has an international responsibility to provide leadership and provide immediate assistance,” she said.

Abbott has pointed the finger of blame at Burma for letting the asylum seekers leave.

“This is quite properly a regional responsibility and the countries that will have to take the bulk of the responsibility are obviously the countries which are closest to the problem. In the end, the culprit is Burma because it is Burma where there is an issue,” Abbott said.


The opposition spokesman on immigration, Richard Marles, said that classification was unhelpful.


“I think that if what comes out of this is that everyone points the finger solely at Myanmar that’s not going to end up with the kind of results the global community would want to see,” he told Sky News.


“There simply has to be a point at which Tony Abbott understands that he is not just a low-rent domestic politician but is the prime minister of Australia. He enters the world stage as a statesman or at least he should and that’s what we need to see and hear from him.”
Despite Abbott's idiocy including forgetting the country is Myanmar, and no longer called Burma, forgetting that they are actually facing ethnic cleansing, and since Myanmar wants to cleanse them it kind of helps their goals to let the Rohingya leave (so blaming them for doing something they want to do in the first place seems to miss the point), he does represent what is a difficult proposition. That is what to do to help the Rohingya.

The problem lies in Myanmar, not just the government, but the average people are targetting the Rohingya. The government is either turning a blind eye to this, or silently supporting the demagogue Buddhists monks (IIRC there is some evidence to support this), and Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung Sung Suu Kyi is reluctant to tackle the problem with more than a few token words. The other issue is the numbers of potential refugees. The Rohingya population in Myanmar is close around 800 000 in a 2012 census.

I am really not sure what we can do about this., :( Compelling Myanmar looks like its going to be an exercise in futility (these were the guys who didn't even allow a US navy ship to help after a natural disaster a few years ago), and its certainly in their interest for more Rohingya's to leave Myanmar. With the exception of Singapore, most ASEAN nations are poor to middle income countries, and intuitively I feel would struggle economically to support them in large numbers even if Islam requires them to help fellow Muslims.

Australia's PM was elected on a basis to "stop the boats," and I doubt we could take that many even if we wanted to.

Any ideas? Maybe convince the developed world to put their money where their human right claims are and take a few refugees.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Thanas »

China should lean on Burma more, given how close the ties between the nations are, with more than one source describing Burma as a Chinese vassal state (not entirely correct, but not entirely incorrect either).

Likewise, why couldn't Australia take them in? About what total numbers are we talking about here?
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

http://aliran.com/thinking-allowed-onli ... -malaysia/

This is a very long article but I'll just quote some bits
Nobody knows for certain the actual number of Rohingya in Malaysia. In 2009, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) stated that there were 16,662 Rohingya individuals registered with his office in Malaysia. The total numbers in Malaysia ought to be higher.

The majority lived in the poorer parts of the Klang Valley, concentrated around Ampang, Klang, Cheras and Puchong. But. as recently reported, the Cameron Highlands could also be where some 4,000 Rohingyas are concentrated, while the NGOs in Penang that work with forced migrants also suggest that there are a few thousand of them in Penang
This is not a new issue:
You might recall reading 2007 newspaper reports of the boat disasters and other incidents involving Rohingya people. Yes, the Rohingya attempted a new and dangerous move. The terrible living conditions in these camps and the general lack of prospects for the future on account of their statelessness led some 3,000 Rohingya to leave these camps in Bangladesh to seek asylum in Malaysia. Their assumption was that Malaysia would be sympathetic to their plight since they were fellow Muslims.

In any case, Australia already doesn't like taking in the boat people it does have heading towards it, why would they take them in? We're talking thousands, maybe even tens of thousands at the upper bound. And no, I don't think Malaysia can afford it, even if you magic away money that dissapears due to corruption and wasteful spending on things like submarines and jet fighters.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Thanas »

Tens of thousands shouldn't be such a huge problem for Australia, Germany alone takes in around 200k people a year.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by mr friendly guy »

Thanas wrote:China should lean on Burma more, given how close the ties between the nations are, with more than one source describing Burma as a Chinese vassal state (not entirely correct, but not entirely incorrect either).

Likewise, why couldn't Australia take them in? About what total numbers are we talking about here?
Myanmar like other little to middle powers have figured out the best way to get things is to play 2 or more stronger powers against each other to balance things out. Such is their relationship with China at the moment, with their attempt to approach the West.

The other issue is that Myanmar has problems with China right now. That is the Kokang conflict which has already spilled into China. Frankly there are some in that country who believe China secretly wants to annex Kokang and are supplying the rebels. I have a feeling that any attempt by China to lean on them will just stroke up their paranoid fears.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Broomstick »

While I understand the concern that by resettling the boat people you'd be encouraging more of them to set out on the ocean, the bitter fact is that they are already setting out to sea with no clear destination and no certain welcome. The US has been dealing with this off Florida for a couple decades now, with people trying to make the crossing from Cuba with arguably less pressing incentive than the Rohingya fleeing Myanmar, and the occasional pulse of Haitians with even sadder results. People fleeing ethnic cleansing aren't going to stop setting out to sea, they'll keep doing it in hopes something will save them or they can sneak onto land somewhere else.

In a more perfect world the UN would hold some sort of summit or something and various nations would agree to resettle these people in a methodical manner. Even if the upper limit - 800,000 - is the total that is actually doable IF the wealthier nations were willing to work it out.

If no one is willing to take them they will either languish in refugee camps (which will be more or less prisons) or die at sea. I hope various nations will take them in (apparently some have already agreed to take some) but for Australia to bar them categorically is just... mean.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Zaune »

Thanas wrote:Tens of thousands shouldn't be such a huge problem for Australia, Germany alone takes in around 200k people a year.
In the interest of being scrupulously fair to the Australians, Germany doesn't have as much uninhabitable desert.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:China should lean on Burma more, given how close the ties between the nations are, with more than one source describing Burma as a Chinese vassal state (not entirely correct, but [url=http://thediplomat.com/2015/04/chinas-m ... conundrum/]not entirely incorrect either).
China recently had the Kokang conflict flare up again, and it does not seem they can force Myanmar to do as they wish them to; had they been complete vassals, China would protect the Kokang minority, who are ethnically Chinese.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

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Zaune wrote:
Thanas wrote:Tens of thousands shouldn't be such a huge problem for Australia, Germany alone takes in around 200k people a year.
In the interest of being scrupulously fair to the Australians, Germany doesn't have as much uninhabitable desert.
But you could fit Germany several times in the habitable zones of Australia.

Australia: 2,969,907 sq mi
Germany: 137,847 sq mi
(Now look at the climate map Link Looks like at least a fifth of that is ready for habitation.

Australian population: 23,850,700, 7.3/sq mi
German population: 80,716,000, 583/sq mi

SO even if we factor in only a fifth being able to accept settlement (heck let's be generous and only make it a tenth) and you can see how the claim of "we're full" doesn't make any sense.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

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Thanas wrote:Tens of thousands shouldn't be such a huge problem for Australia, Germany alone takes in around 200k people a year.
It shouldn't be a practical problem at all. The only problem is that Australia is really racist at times.

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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

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Gandalf wrote:
Thanas wrote:Tens of thousands shouldn't be such a huge problem for Australia, Germany alone takes in around 200k people a year.
It shouldn't be a practical problem at all. The only problem is that Australia is really racist at times.

"Nope. Nope. Nope."
Wow.





Seriously, I can't believe he actually did a Looney Tunes impression in response to that question. :wtf:
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Gandalf »

Yeah, you could pretty much have a sticky thread on "Tony Abbott (or minister) says/does something ridiculous or abhorrent."
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

Gandalf wrote:
Thanas wrote:Tens of thousands shouldn't be such a huge problem for Australia, Germany alone takes in around 200k people a year.
It shouldn't be a practical problem at all. The only problem is that Australia is really racist at times.

"Nope. Nope. Nope."
Well I've seen some sarcastic responses that basically go "why not the West do something like what they did for the Jews and just give a part of their country up for the rohingya to stay", generally from, you know, people sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

But it's hard for me to be too hard on Australian racism when racism is part of the motivations for not letting them in here in the first place, despite rational other reasons like economics and so on.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... t=rohingya

Geez. Nothing is new in the world. :(

From that thread. It's as true today as it was in 2013:
AniThyng wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I think while Westerners huff and puff about this, most Asians will probably say "meh".

And that is the problem. Not even the "Muslim Brotherhood" can save these buggers. Bangladesh closed the border to them. If you guys want to help them, you guys will have to fork out the cash for them yourselves on your own soil. No one wants them here in Asia. Doubtless the Australian govt would really hope that they don't ever contemplate going their way. Doubtful they would even survive the trip anyhow.
So much easier to just make a big hue and cry about Palestine where we don't actually need to do anything except send money and showcase convoys than about a situation in our own backyard where we might actually need to Do Something.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

AniThyng wrote:http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... t=rohingya

Geez. Nothing is new in the world. :(

From that thread. It's as true today as it was in 2013:
Yup! Nothing new. After this latest spasm of sympathy, everyone will just continue their merry way.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by wautd »

Why can't Indonesia take up those refugees? Surely integration would be easier in a muslim country
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

not when there aren't enough jobs for Indonesians as it is and they travel to Malaysia illegally themselves. Admittedly this may be less of an issue lately with an improving economy but I'm still pretty sure Indonesia is not exactly wealthy enough to absorb them easily
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

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Singapore could take them on, as could Malaysia and Indonesia. Quite frankly, the numbers of a few thousand are a drop in the bucket, at worst they would slightly make things harder.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

I don't see how that follows - a few thousand here, a few thousand there, might as well just say that we can fly them all to Canada and we're good.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

wautd wrote:Why can't Indonesia take up those refugees? Surely integration would be easier in a muslim country
I am not sure adding one more ethnic group to a country already riven with ethnic issues is a good idea...

As for Malaysia, they already a "Malay First" policy. Not even sure that's the best place to go.

And Singapore? Good lord, the good chunk of the locals already don't like Bangladeshis. Throwing a bunch of guys there who look just like them is hilarious.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
wautd wrote:Why can't Indonesia take up those refugees? Surely integration would be easier in a muslim country
I am not sure adding one more ethnic group to a country already riven with ethnic issues is a good idea...

As for Malaysia, they already a "Malay First" policy. Not even sure that's the best place to go.

And Singapore? Good lord, the good chunk of the locals already don't like Bangladeshis. Throwing a bunch of guys there who look just like them is hilarious.
Don't you see, we could give them all identity cards and just ask them to vote for the ruling party wherever they need a few more votes to edge out the opposition! They just had bad timing, should have came over in 2013 before the election!

No seriously some people actually take this bullshit seriously.

I mean, the malay nationalist party may be racist and parochical, but do not for a moment think that absolves the chinese for their own priviledge and racism. I mean what exactly do you expect the ruling party to have? A "poor people first" platform? THat's rich, might as well ask why there is a need for affirmative action for blacks when it should just be for poor people.

Anyway, maybe Singapore can sell a couple of F-15S's to pay for housing the refugees or something. I mean I know it's terribly distressing being surrounded by enemy regimes but your military is still obscenely large.

I may be just randomly bitching at this point because there's too much damned if you do, damned if you don't in this world
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Thanas »

AniThyng wrote:I don't see how that follows - a few thousand here, a few thousand there, might as well just say that we can fly them all to Canada and we're good.
Can you spell slippery slope fallacy? Right now the excuses seem to be all that, excuses.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by AniThyng »

Thanas wrote:
AniThyng wrote:I don't see how that follows - a few thousand here, a few thousand there, might as well just say that we can fly them all to Canada and we're good.
Can you spell slippery slope fallacy? Right now the excuses seem to be all that, excuses.
Yeah look, I'm not going to deny that a big part of the refusal to take on >more< migrants/refugees is motivated by prejudice and racism on the part of the electorate, but there is only so much funding and housing to go around and we already host thousands (or tens of thousands, depending on source) of illegal immigrants as it is and the social and economic cost is not negligible, and I don't think the "moral hazard" argument vis a vis encouraging more people to take the risk of leaving is without merit - after all, even with the 2013 events people still feel compelled to risk it, it can only get more likely if it's known that the risk can be alleviated just that little bit more now that we've all been shamed into taking them in.
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Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Thanas wrote:
AniThyng wrote:I don't see how that follows - a few thousand here, a few thousand there, might as well just say that we can fly them all to Canada and we're good.
Can you spell slippery slope fallacy? Right now the excuses seem to be all that, excuses.
Well, no one really really really wants them around. So all you are gonna get is excuses.
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Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
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madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: What to do about the Rohingya

Post by madd0ct0r »

Given Myanmar's poverty, mineral wealth timber wealth and hydroelectric potential, and the huge ngo -poverty complex bringing aid into the area, I'm really surprised that heavy diplomatic pressure isnt being brought to bear on the Myanmar elite
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
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