Israel: 'This land is ours. All of it.'

[Tanasinn]

His point has nothing to do with that, but rather that Israeli powers that be will not be keen to credit cries of apartheid when they can look to the loss of power of South Africa's former elite. Better to brave spineless whining and sanctions, from a purely practical, amoral, selfish perspective.

[cmdrjones]

Well, at least they are honest about their aims now, instead of Netanyahoos blatant race-baiting and settlement increase.

The EU and UN should immediately start apartheid penalties against Israel. Turn them into another South Africa.

Being that ending Apartheid worked out so well for those who held power in South Africa, I can see why Israel will tell the UN and EU to shove it up their collective asses.

Yes, those poor minority of whites, who are former brutal oppressive segregationists who colonized a country and kept a boot heel on the necks of the natives they conquered, treated as second class citizens (to put it kindly), and forced to labor in gold and diamond mines rulers who lost power simply by no longer treating the native people as a cheap force of labor at best or as cockroaches in the way at worst. How I weep for them.

That's what "held power" usually refers to. So, in your opinion, what should be done with the Afrikaans? Maybe they should all get necklaced eh?

[Esquire]

Care to expand on that term?

[salm]

Care to expand on that term?

It refers to the practice of putting an old tire filled with gasoline around a persons neck like a necklace and then setting it on fire.

[Flagg]

Yes, those poor minority of whites, who are former brutal oppressive segregationists who colonized a country and kept a boot heel on the necks of the natives they conquered, treated as second class citizens (to put it kindly), and forced to labor in gold and diamond mines rulers who lost power simply by no longer treating the native people as a cheap force of labor at best or as cockroaches in the way at worst. How I weep for them.

That's what "held power" usually refers to. So, in your opinion, what should be done with the Afrikaans? Maybe they should all get necklaced eh?

I don't know, maybe they should try to claim refugee status and beg the UK and the Netherlands to let them in since those are largely their countries of origin? But these countries that left the 19th and early part of the 20th century behind have populations that I doubt want a bunch of pond scum segregationists that all but enslaved a people because of the color of their skin on their own land until like, the day before living next door, so I'm sure the governments of said populations don't want that influx of cuntitude into their nations (mainly because there's no fucking room for them, oh and they're fuckers) and they're stuck sitting in their own shitty diapers with no one to change them... Well, whose fault is that? Why should you, me, or anyone else care so much about a bunch of people that lived like kings off the backs of the all but enslaved gigantic majority whose land they have plundered for 100 years?

Because they are still human beings, of course. So send in a UN peacekeeping force, whether the formerly or newly powerful want it or not, so there won't be large scale reprisals. And when some do happen, the perpetrators are punished. And while even though the formerly powerful will hate the guts of the peacekeepers (whose boots they should be licking clean, soles and all because if they weren't there, there'd be a lot worse going on than "necklacing", I can fucking guarantee you that) it would be much better than the absolute chaos that would likely (as in almost certainly) go down otherwise.

Not that the situation would be even close to the same, since one party would still have nuclear weapons, tanks, apc's, modern artillery, rockets that amount to more than giant bottlerocket-bombs, etc.

[Flagg]

And just as a kind of follow-up... Why is it that conservatives were and are so concerned about what happened to the minority Afrikaans of South Africa who acted like total cunts, to the point where they bring it up over 20 years later, but I never hear them mentioning the Iraqi Sunni's who also acted like total cunts when in power, who were just outright massacred after the US rolled in?

[cmdrjones]

Yes, those poor minority of whites, who are former brutal oppressive segregationists who colonized a country and kept a boot heel on the necks of the natives they conquered, treated as second class citizens (to put it kindly), and forced to labor in gold and diamond mines rulers who lost power simply by no longer treating the native people as a cheap force of labor at best or as cockroaches in the way at worst. How I weep for them.

That's what "held power" usually refers to. So, in your opinion, what should be done with the Afrikaans? Maybe they should all get necklaced eh?

I don't know, maybe they should try to claim refugee status and beg the UK and the Netherlands to let them in since those are largely their countries of origin? But these countries that left the 19th and early part of the 20th century behind have populations that I doubt want a bunch of pond scum segregationists that all but enslaved a people because of the color of their skin on their own land until like, the day before living next door, so I'm sure the governments of said populations don't want that influx of cuntitude into their nations (mainly because there's no fucking room for them, oh and they're fuckers) and they're stuck sitting in their own shitty diapers with no one to change them... Well, whose fault is that? Why should you, me, or anyone else care so much about a bunch of people that lived like kings off the backs of the all but enslaved gigantic majority whose land they have plundered for 100 years?

Because they are still human beings, of course. So send in a UN peacekeeping force, whether the formerly or newly powerful want it or not, so there won't be large scale reprisals. And when some do happen, the perpetrators are punished. And while even though the formerly powerful will hate the guts of the peacekeepers (whose boots they should be licking clean, soles and all because if they weren't there, there'd be a lot worse going on than "necklacing", I can fucking guarantee you that) it would be much better than the absolute chaos that would likely (as in almost certainly) go down otherwise.

Not that the situation would be even close to the same, since one party would still have nuclear weapons, tanks, apc's, modern artillery, rockets that amount to more than giant bottlerocket-bombs, etc.

So it's about the size of the oppressed party, the length and severity of the oppression and so on?

Ok then I guess the Israelis should all move to germany and get the pick of the best houses and so on?

I hazard the situation isn't so simple.
I disagree with the idea of holding descendants responsible for thier ancestors otherwise wars and massacres will never end. For example, if the standard you seem to espouse is applied to, say, the mongolians, they can be genocided at will by most of Asia.

[cmdrjones]

And just as a kind of follow-up... Why is it that conservatives were and are so concerned about what happened to the minority Afrikaans of South Africa who acted like total cunts, to the point where they bring it up over 20 years later, but I never hear them mentioning the Iraqi Sunni's who also acted like total cunts when in power, who were just outright massacred after the US rolled in?

Ironically enough I had several conversations with Shiites in Iraq about the Sunnis and what to do with them, and by and large the Shiites were all about killing all of them. You should have seen the look on one guys face when I suggested that they take the high road and forgive the sunnis in the interest of ending the violence and creating a new Iraq etc etc, the killer line was: "Is Allah not merciful?"

yeah, don't correct Muslims on religious matters, LOL

A lot of the "cuntish" behavior you cite is simply practical for those in those situations at the time, we are a rationalizing species after all, are we not?

[FTeik]

Yes, those poor minority of whites, who are former brutal oppressive segregationists who colonized a country and kept a boot heel on the necks of the natives they conquered, treated as second class citizens (to put it kindly), and forced to labor in gold and diamond mines rulers who lost power simply by no longer treating the native people as a cheap force of labor at best or as cockroaches in the way at worst. How I weep for them.

That's what "held power" usually refers to. So, in your opinion, what should be done with the Afrikaans? Maybe they should all get necklaced eh?

I don't know, maybe they should try to claim refugee status and beg the UK and the Netherlands to let them in since those are largely their countries of origin? But these countries that left the 19th and early part of the 20th century behind have populations that I doubt want a bunch of pond scum segregationists that all but enslaved a people because of the color of their skin on their own land until like, the day before living next door, so I'm sure the governments of said populations don't want that influx of cuntitude into their nations (mainly because there's no fucking room for them, oh and they're fuckers) and they're stuck sitting in their own shitty diapers with no one to change them... Well, whose fault is that? Why should you, me, or anyone else care so much about a bunch of people that lived like kings off the backs of the all but enslaved gigantic majority whose land they have plundered for 100 years?

Perhaps because much of the plunder went to those countries (UK, Netherlands, France, Belgium) and helped them establish first-world-status (and does so - under different conditions - today)? Isn't it nice to have others, who get their hands dirty for you?

[K. A. Pital]

So it's about the size of the oppressed party, the length and severity of the oppression and so on?

Ok then I guess the Israelis should all move to germany and get the pick of the best houses and so on?

I hazard the situation isn't so simple.
I disagree with the idea of holding descendants responsible for thier ancestors otherwise wars and massacres will never end. For example, if the standard you seem to espouse is applied to, say, the mongolians, they can be genocided at will by most of Asia.

Considering what Nazis did to the Jews - damn right maybe they should move to Germany and receive compensation. And you seem to be forgetting one little bit: the Mongols are not profitting from the Tartar-Mongol conquests for centuries now, whatever profit they once had is long gone, and they have, in fact, been driven out of many places their Empire once stretched to, and they have also suffered enough persecution at the hands of formerly subjugated peoples.

If you think that descendants get to enjoy all the fruits of the plunder, genocide and slavery their forerunners committed, like say Britain, how is that a better solution? It encourages the occupier to ethnically cleanse the conquered people (so that there would not be hostile minorities looking to make financial claims some 40-50 years into the future when their little colonial paradise collapses like a house of cards) and maintain the occupation regime for decades at least and centuries at most. In this case the occupier is never challenged because he dies while the occupied are still under his heel, and his son is automatically not responsible for what his daddy did.

This logic encourages landgrabs followed by eternal occupation. Never give an inch since when you lose power, you will be held responsible for what you did 40-50 years ago. Well, tough shit.

[cmdrjones]

So it's about the size of the oppressed party, the length and severity of the oppression and so on?

Ok then I guess the Israelis should all move to germany and get the pick of the best houses and so on?

I hazard the situation isn't so simple.
I disagree with the idea of holding descendants responsible for thier ancestors otherwise wars and massacres will never end. For example, if the standard you seem to espouse is applied to, say, the mongolians, they can be genocided at will by most of Asia.

Considering what Nazis did to the Jews - damn right maybe they should move to Germany and receive compensation. And you seem to be forgetting one little bit: the Mongols are not profitting from the Tartar-Mongol conquests for centuries now, whatever profit they once had is long gone, and they have, in fact, been driven out of many places their Empire once stretched to, and they have also suffered enough persecution at the hands of formerly subjugated peoples.
If you think that descendants get to enjoy all the fruits of the plunder, genocide and slavery their forerunners committed, like say Britain, how is that a better solution? It encourages the occupier to ethnically cleanse the conquered people (so that there would not be hostile minorities looking to make financial claims some 40-50 years into the future when their little colonial paradise collapses like a house of cards) and maintain the occupation regime for decades at least and centuries at most. In this case the occupier is never challenged because he dies while the occupied are still under his heel, and his son is automatically not responsible for what his daddy did.

This logic encourages landgrabs followed by eternal occupation. Never give an inch since when you lose power, you will be held responsible for what you did 40-50 years ago. Well, tough shit.

Seems like we need to develop a moral system wherein both parties are encouraged to forgive one another the offenses and move on in peace. Perhaps one where everyone, despite all evidence to the contrary, is equal in the eyes of the moral source of that authority... and the authority should be ultimate, it has to be without a time limit and apply to all people in all situations too.

Damn.... what a great idea that would be eh?

[Thanas]

Considering what Nazis did to the Jews - damn right maybe they should move to Germany and receive compensation. And you seem to be forgetting one little bit: the Mongols are not profitting from the Tartar-Mongol conquests for centuries now, whatever profit they once had is long gone, and they have, in fact, been driven out of many places their Empire once stretched to, and they have also suffered enough persecution at the hands of formerly subjugated peoples.

So according to that model, Jews would not receive any compensation, as Germany sure as heck did not profit from WWII.

[Elheru Aran]

As far as the white South Africans go, it's worth considering that they have resided in southern Africa for... gee, probably around 400ish years, if not 500, by now. They've been there for long enough that they can be, IMO, legitimately considered 'African'. Kicking them out and expelling them back to their countries is no more right than various countries in Europe expelling Jews back in the day, who had often been in those countries just as long. Were they once a small minority in a position of power over the black majority? Sure. But that doesn't make it right to discriminate against them and move that they should all 'go back home'.

[Ralin]

If you think that descendants get to enjoy all the fruits of the plunder, genocide and slavery their forerunners committed, like say Britain, how is that a better solution? It encourages the occupier to ethnically cleanse the conquered people (so that there would not be hostile minorities looking to make financial claims some 40-50 years into the future when their little colonial paradise collapses like a house of cards

No, it drives home the stupidity of holding decades or centuries long grudges and that past a certain point the only viable option is to let it go instead of exhaustively demanding compensation for things that happened to people you happen to be related to

[Flagg]

If we were talking about a South Africa where apartheid was done away with 50-60 years ago I might be supremely outraged at the treatment white South Africans got in the mid 1990's. But we're not. It was done away with in 1994, when I was 12 or 13. So it's not like the Afrikaans were innocents being punished for horrible shit their ancestors did, it's the perpetrators being punished for what they did. (in an unjust and barbaric way in the case of putting a flaming tire around someone's neck, which I will never defend as it's indefensible). It's just that I personally am not going to get too worked up about it because it's not like apartheid laws treated the natives like they were guests at Disney World. So do I feel some sympathy for Afrikaans who were victims of violent mob attacks? Of course I do! I feel sympathy for victims of any violent mob attacks. But let's not pretend this is something it isn't.

EDIT: And because I'm a moron, I didn't make it at all clear in this post that I was speaking as if it was directly after apartheid ended, not for discrimination Afrikaans may face now.

[Ralin]

If we were talking about a South Africa where apartheid was done away with 50-60 years ago I might be supremely outraged at the treatment white South Africans got in the mid 1990's. But we're not. It was done away with in 1994, when I was 12 or 13. So it's not like the Afrikaans were innocents being punished for horrible shit their ancestors did, it's the perpetrators being punished for what they did. (in an unjust and barbaric way in the case of putting a flaming tire around someone's neck, which I will never defend as it's indefensible). It's just that I personally am not going to get too worked up about it because it's not like apartheid laws treated the natives like they were guests at Disney World. So do I feel some sympathy for Afrikaans who were victims of violent mob attacks? Of course I do! I feel sympathy for victims of any violent mob attacks. But let's not pretend this is something it isn't.

EDIT: And because I'm a moron, I didn't make it at all clear in this post that I was speaking as if it was directly after apartheid ended, not for discrimination Afrikaans may face now.

Bear in mind I was speaking specifically to Stas with that. Who has said more than once that length of time is irrelevant when it comes to reparations and national obligations for these sorts of things. And if he's ever elaborated on where the line is drawn to keep that from devolving into an endless regress of whose ancestors fucked over who however many centuries ago I haven't seen it.

[Flagg]

If we were talking about a South Africa where apartheid was done away with 50-60 years ago I might be supremely outraged at the treatment white South Africans got in the mid 1990's. But we're not. It was done away with in 1994, when I was 12 or 13. So it's not like the Afrikaans were innocents being punished for horrible shit their ancestors did, it's the perpetrators being punished for what they did. (in an unjust and barbaric way in the case of putting a flaming tire around someone's neck, which I will never defend as it's indefensible). It's just that I personally am not going to get too worked up about it because it's not like apartheid laws treated the natives like they were guests at Disney World. So do I feel some sympathy for Afrikaans who were victims of violent mob attacks? Of course I do! I feel sympathy for victims of any violent mob attacks. But let's not pretend this is something it isn't.

EDIT: And because I'm a moron, I didn't make it at all clear in this post that I was speaking as if it was directly after apartheid ended, not for discrimination Afrikaans may face now.

Bear in mind I was speaking specifically to Stas with that. Who has said more than once that length of time is irrelevant when it comes to reparations and national obligations for these sorts of things. And if he's ever elaborated on where the line is drawn to keep that from devolving into an endless regress of whose ancestors fucked over who however many centuries ago I haven't seen it.

Yeah, sorry. My brain is currently turning into mush tonight, and I should have made it clear I wasn't responding to you or really anyone else directly, just the general tone of the thread regarding South Africa and apartheid, and specifically a few things cmdrjones said. So please no one take offense if you think I'm putting words in your mouth.

[Ralin]

It's cool. Honestly I don't really even know all that much about apartheid off the top of my head other than the broad strokes and that the after maybe wasn't as handled as well as some make it out to have been.

[K. A. Pital]

I never elaborated on a line because the "draw a line" approach is too simplistic. You cannot draw one line for all situations, all countries and nations.

[cmdrjones]

Considering what Nazis did to the Jews - damn right maybe they should move to Germany and receive compensation. And you seem to be forgetting one little bit: the Mongols are not profitting from the Tartar-Mongol conquests for centuries now, whatever profit they once had is long gone, and they have, in fact, been driven out of many places their Empire once stretched to, and they have also suffered enough persecution at the hands of formerly subjugated peoples.

So according to that model, Jews would not receive any compensation, as Germany sure as heck did not profit from WWII.

I admit it, I LOL'ed

[cmdrjones]

As far as the white South Africans go, it's worth considering that they have resided in southern Africa for... gee, probably around 400ish years, if not 500, by now. They've been there for long enough that they can be, IMO, legitimately considered 'African'. Kicking them out and expelling them back to their countries is no more right than various countries in Europe expelling Jews back in the day, who had often been in those countries just as long. Were they once a small minority in a position of power over the black majority? Sure. But that doesn't make it right to discriminate against them and move that they should all 'go back home'.

there is a school of thought that they can NEVER be African despite how long they may have lived there, because they maintain their euro based language and "hateful Whitey" culture.

Of course that means that 95% of North Americans will never properly be Americans either due to distinct lack of feathers and tipis.