Religious Belief a Brain Condition

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-22 11:29am

BBC News wrote:God on the Brain
By Liz Tucker
BBC Horizon

Why do some people experience religious visions? BBC Two's Horizon discovers there could be a very practical explanation.

Controversial new research suggests that whether we believe in a God may not just be a matter of free will. Scientists now believe there may be physical differences in the brains of ardent believers.
Inspiration for this work has come from a group of patients who have a strange brain disorder called temporal lobe epilepsy. In a minority of patients, this condition induces bizarre religious hallucinations - something that patient Rudi Affolter has experienced vividly.

Despite the fact that he is a confirmed atheist, when he was 43, Rudi had a powerful religious vision which convinced him he had gone to hell.

"I was told that I had gone there because I had not been a devout Christian, a believer in God. I was very depressed at the thought that I was going to remain there forever."

Clinical evidence

Gwen Tighe also has the disorder. When she had a baby, she believed she had given birth to Jesus. It was something her husband Berny found very difficult to understand.

"She said, isn't it nice to be part of the holy family? I thought, holy family? It then turned out she thought I was Joseph, she was Mary and that little Charlie was Christ."

Professor VS Ramachandran, of the University of California in San Diego, believed that the temporal lobes of the brain were key in religious experience. He felt that patients like Rudi and Gwen could provide important evidence linking the temporal lobes to religious experience.

So he set up an experiment to compare the brains of people with and without temporal lobe epilepsy. He decided to measure his patients' changes in skin resistance, essentially measuring how much they sweated when they looked at different types of imagery.

What Professor Ramachandran discovered to his surprise was that when the temporal lobe patients were shown any type of religious imagery, their bodies produced a dramatic change in their skin resistance.

Prof VS Ramachandran, University of California wrote:The activity of specific neural circuits makes these patients more prone to religious belief

"We found to our amazement that every time they looked at religious words like God, they'd get a huge galvanic skin response."

This was the very first piece of clinical evidence revealing that the body's response to religious symbols was definitely linked to the temporal lobes of the brain.

"What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief."

Scientists now believe famous religious figures in the past could also have been sufferers from the condition. St Paul and Moses appear to be two of the most likely candidates.

But most convincing of all is the evidence from American neurologist Professor Gregory Holmes. He has studied the life of Ellen G White, who was the spiritual founder of the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Today, the movement is a thriving church with over 12 million members.

During her life, Ellen had hundreds of dramatic religious visions which were key in the establishment of the church, helping to convince her followers that she was indeed spiritually inspired. But Professor Holmes believes there may be another far more prosaic explanation for her visions.

Head trauma

He has discovered that at the age of nine, Ellen suffered a severe blow to her head. As a result, she was semi-conscious for several weeks and so ill she never returned to school.

Following the accident, Ellen's personality changed dramatically and she became highly religious and moralistic.

And for the first time in her life, she began to have powerful religious visions.

Professor Holmes is convinced that the blow to Ellen's head caused her to develop temporal lobe epilepsy.

"Her whole clinical course to me suggested the high probability that she had temporal lobe epilepsy. This would indicate to me that the spiritual visions she was having would not be genuine, but would be due to the seizures."

Professor Holmes' diagnosis is a shattering one for the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Their spokesman, Dr Daniel Giang, is a neurologist as well as a member of the church.

Dr Daniel Giang, Seventh-day Adventist Church wrote:Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more - that's quite unusual for seizures

He dismisses the claims, insisting the visions started too long after the accident to have been caused by it. He goes on to say: "Ellen White's visions lasted from 15 minutes to three hours or more. She never apparently had any briefer visions - that's quite unusual for seizures."
We will never know for sure whether religious figures in the past definitely did have the disorder but scientists now believe the condition provides a powerful insight into revealing how religious experience may impact on the brain.

They believe what happens inside the minds of temporal lobe epileptic patients may just be an extreme case of what goes on inside all of our minds.

For everyone, whether they have the condition or not, it now appears the temporal lobes are key in experiencing religious and spiritual belief.

Horizon: God On The Brain will be broadcast in April on BBC Two.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-03-22 11:52am

Well, if theres any indication of a genetic link to this, perhaps selective breeding (birthrights programs etc) can weed out the fundies from out genepool

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-22 12:47pm

Hmmm, so the prophets had a brain condition...ool. Load more ammo!

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 02:03pm

Hah. Everyone has a "brain condition." They've always said shit like that. This biological reductionist/determinist shit pisses me off. People use this shit to justify their actions so they can get away with it. "Oh, I didn't mean to kill her, I'm a schitzo." "Don't blame me for hating fags because they'll burn in hell, it's my brain functions!"

Ugh. Headaches abound.

Another interesting thing they didn't bother to report there is that after a while, you're capable of influencing your brain. Religious fervor can lead to that. As for that atheist guy, who knows? Why did he have a Christian vision? Why not Hindu, or Wiccan?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 02:10pm

Now that I think about it, if the scientific world was still under the rule of a theocracy, they may see differences in skeptics' brains.

I'm sorry, I just absolutely hate it when 'researchers' try to say that what we do isn't what we want to do, it's because of our "brain patterns." Gee willikers, since I'm Irish/Italian, I should not only be angry and drunk all the time, but a Catholic as well! Bastards.

Edited slightly.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-03-22 03:11pm

Aw, afraid you aren't quite so in control of your actions as you thought? Sorry to say that the way your brain is wired determines how you'll behave. Quite frankly, this research doesn't surprise me at all. Have you ever seen some one having a "religious experience"? Quite a lot of them look very much like they are experiencing a seizure.

I don't think this absolves anybody of responsibility for thier actions, though. Quite frankly I don't think insanity or retardation is much of an excuse either, but I'm a bastard like that.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 03:18pm

I'm aware that the brain controls behavior, but you can overcome it with much pereverance. Personally, I'm prone to getting pissed off pretty fast, but I've never punched anyone in the face. I'm just pointing out my disgust of the people who blame their brains/bodies for something that can be controlled with reasonable effort. NOTHING is an excuse when it comes to wantonly killing someone or committing a crime. You did it, you pay.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-22 03:21pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:I'm aware that the brain controls behavior, but you can overcome it with much pereverance. Personally, I'm prone to getting pissed off pretty fast, but I've never punched anyone in the face. I'm just pointing out my disgust of the people who blame their brains/bodies for something that can be controlled with reasonable effort. NOTHING is an excuse when it comes to wantonly killing someone or committing a crime. You did it, you pay.

Some things are genetic predisposition, like anger and such. Other are downright harmful, like epilepsy, or scizophrenia. Those illesses are very real. And cannot be controlled without help. You cannot control the voices in your head, but you can try to ignore them.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-22 03:22pm

Now that I think about it, if the scientific world was still under the rule of a theocracy, they may see differences in skeptics' brains.

If scientists where controlled by a theocracy, they would not exist

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 03:23pm

I think that psychology and psychiatry have great potential in society, but sometimes they go too far in their catagorizing of people. It caters to our wanting to seek out determinable conditions in people...people don't like to be held responsible for their actions.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 03:24pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Now that I think about it, if the scientific world was still under the rule of a theocracy, they may see differences in skeptics' brains.
If scientists where controlled by a theocracy, they would not exist

Good point. I mean more like creationist-type "scientists."

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-03-22 03:41pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Now that I think about it, if the scientific world was still under the rule of a theocracy, they may see differences in skeptics' brains.
If scientists where controlled by a theocracy, they would not exist
Good point. I mean more like creationist-type "scientists."

They wouldn't go looking, they'd just say it's God's Plan.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-03-22 03:42pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Now that I think about it, if the scientific world was still under the rule of a theocracy, they may see differences in skeptics' brains.
If scientists where controlled by a theocracy, they would not exist
Good point. I mean more like creationist-type "scientists."

ith creation "science" The scientific method would not exist. no advnces will be made.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-03-22 03:52pm

Does the size of the brain influence religous behavior, or does religous behavior influence the size of the brain. Besides, then examples they listed were mostly extreme examples. What about the "Regular" worshippers out there?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 03:58pm

It's my understanding that the mind influences the brain, and vice versa. What would cause this to happen in the brain of an atheist, who never had any previous mental problems? And most importantly, why would it be a religious experience? Why not an acid-like trip for him, or just black out? Could it be that he was exposed to Christianity more than any other religion? I think so.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 04:03pm

Theologically speaking, this can be described as the way in which you perceive God. Makes sense from that point of view.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-22 04:06pm

Yogi wrote:Does the size of the brain influence religous behavior, or does religous behavior influence the size of the brain. Besides, then examples they listed were mostly extreme examples. What about the "Regular" worshippers out there?

Most of the "regular" worshipers are simply gullible enough to believe the ones who claim to have spiritual visions. Religions don't get started by normal people; they get started by people like Moses and Ellen White. This research goes a long way toward solidifying the conclusion that all religion is bullshit.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-22 04:07pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:Theologically speaking, this can be described as the way in which you perceive God. Makes sense from that point of view.

And the theological circular reasoning continues.
Why in Hell would God want his believers to experience seizures whenever he talks to them? It certainly doesn't grant them credibility.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 04:09pm

From the same viewpoint: you would have to accept that God isn't omnipotent and can only communicate when you're not in tune with normal reality.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 06:11pm

Now, after further reading the exploits of the somethingawful.co* crew, I've reached a new conlusion: No one, anywhere, ever, will EVER be able to explain scat fetishism.

*Insert Emoticon of Disgust*

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-22 06:21pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:Now, after further reading the exploits of the somethingawful.co* crew, I've reached a new conlusion: No one, anywhere, ever, will EVER be able to explain scat fetishism. *Insert Emoticon of Disgust*

Um ... okay.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 06:24pm

Yeah, I'll admit that seems a little out of place...It's that I was previously talking about how people try to figure out what makes other people tick, so this is an example of how you can't do that with everything. Unless, of course, you simple label the people "insane."

[BL]Phalanx · Post by **[BL]Phalanx** » 2003-03-22 09:02pm

I'd sincerely hope that we aren't NFAs....

because then no one really would be responsible for their actions. We'd just be filters... get in input, have an output.

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-03-22 09:04pm

Kindly bring light to my ignorance of what an "NFA" is.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-22 09:12pm

UltraViolence83 wrote:Kindly bring light to my ignorance of what an "NFA" is.

Something-Something Automatons, probably. The fact that we run our input through an extremely complex and large series of filters doesn't change the fact that we are all basic input-output machines. That's what the entire field of psychology is hoping, anyway.