Thrawn vs. Spock

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-04 10:57pm

Exactly, to have it as a fair fight you'd need to throw them into another part of the Universe in ship of which they didn't know the capabilities and so on. This really needed to be set down before this debate started, it's all very well saying "Spock Vs Thrawn" but in what circumstances? Where? What ship? Etc.
You bring up a good point about whether it was a prolonged campagin, they'd pretty much know where and when this battle would take place and both would try and turn it to their advantage in some way, by trying to turn it into a trap or bringing excessive fire power, etc.
If it wasn't a prolonged campagin, the chances are very slim that they'd just meet and say "Who the hell is that!? Quick! Kill it!" This is a Chiss and a Vulcan, the 2 most logical species known, but ofcourse this is just a debate and theres so many "what if"'s and "but"'s and so on.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-04 11:01pm

Interestingly, the originol post suggested that there would be no long campaign (as irishmick is debating) but instead 1-1 duel to the death, and I quote: "So my question is, who would win in a battle of strategy, be itspace combat, risk, or Age of Empires, Thrawn or Spock?"

Regardless, I'm willing to argue campaign anyway, but I think it needs to be adressed that in 1 on 1 space combat, Thrawn would clean house.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-03-04 11:03pm

I'm not arguing that Thrawn isn't a dangerous commander to face off against. What I'm saying is that when coupled with his flaws as a character, Thrawn's genious IS overrated. People on this board are continually waxing poetic about Thrawn's abilities as a military commander, which, granted are superb. BUT, when you use Thrawn's flaws as a counterbalance to those military genious skills, he is not as impressive as some make him out to be. In essence, what I'm arguing is that Thrawn's own brilliance at times can be his own undoing. That is something people here don't always take into account for these vrs. arguments, and that is what makes Thrawn such an intriguing character.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-04 11:07pm

Ok, fair enough (apologise for not reading thourghly). If it was a straight up one on one I say Thrawn would be dealing out one heafty can of whoop ass, not to condeme Spock abilities but Thrawn has the greater experience in command, Spocks only been there watching and yes I know that this would give him a great deal of experience, but my moneys still on Thrawn.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-03-04 11:11pm

True, very true. However many debates are simply testing pure military skill (as this one was inteneded for), at which case Thrawn's genious always prevails. Sure he had his weaknesses, but so does every other Imperial commander, and it doesn't make Thrawns military genious any less extraordinary.

I might also point out that your entire argument hinges on Rukh's involvment. He was a special case, there's no doubting that. Mostly because he was alien, and sicne the Empire betrayed his people, he killed Rukh. You take Rukh away, and assasination (among his own ranks) practically falls apart. All other Imperial officers are human, and have nothing against the Empire (kinda why they joined) and are in fact DEPENDING on Thrwan's genious to keep them alive.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-04 11:16pm

Exactly, the Imperial commanders all think they're invinsible (or did). Ego can get the better of you, but not when your sitting in a bloody Star Destroyer. If Leia hadn't stuck her nose in.....well if she hadn't gotten involved I'd say there'd be a new Emporer on the thrown, possibly Thrawn, and the Alliance wouldn't have a chance, but we're not talking about them, this is Thrawn vs Spock and I believe the only way he could exploit his ego would be to retreat, Thrawn then may go after him and it would be some sort of trpa, but this could only be prepeared in a campaign which this is not. I just don't see how Spocks gunna win.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-03-05 03:39am

I'm not at all sure about this arrogance and ego thing, Thrawn retired from battle several times when he knew he was not able to win, or when he knew he could win with heavy loses, he also refused to command operations (I think 4) when he was not sure he could put up a victory, and he refused directly to the emperor, this is kindda the opposite of arrogance. Getting killed by his bodyguard was due to lack of information, the Noghri were fanatically loyal to Darth Vader, and Vader put them under the command of Thrawn. Thrawn knew this, he didn't know Leia managed to turn the Noghri against him, had he known, he will probably gotten all Noghri off his ships.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 03:52am

I know what you mean and your right it was lack of information, he was pretty sure of victory and he thought he was safe on his Star Destroyer, and he should have, because as far as he knew he knew, he had his loyal bodygaurd, so that was lack of info, but I mean if he had pretty much beaten Spock into submission he might not want to let him get away and follow him, but he also may smell a trap and leave him, but thats if it was a campagin, which this is not.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2003-03-05 03:53am

By the end of "The Last Command", Thrawn was at the end of his rope. He outguessed the Alliance's scheme to attack Bilbringi, but Pellaeon thought he was losing it, and in fact the actual battle was turned by a handful of smugglers in the wrong place at the wrong time. Meanwhile, Thrawn had misjudged the psychology and abilities of Mara Jade, Joruus C'Baoth, and the entire Noghri race. He had had Mara in his power at one time; he really should not have let her go. He grossly underestimated Joruus C'Baoth - even if Luke and co. hadn't destroyed Mount Tantiss, C'Baoth would have taken control and forced Thrawn to destroy it via orbital bombardment, if that would have been enough to stop C'Baoth. Finally, he totally failed to understand the Noghri. Not only did he not see signs of their unrest, he indirectly encouraged it by sending them against the children of Darth Vader, the leader they worshipped. He really should have foreseen problems with this, especially after their repeated failures. Thrawn's luck had definitely run out.

That said, he would still annihilate Spock in military strategy.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-05 04:00am

Yes, but that was prolonged campagin against him, it wouldn't be the same against Spock, it would be a one on one battle, no reinforcments, but if your talking about it like that and they were both in ships of equal fire power, etc, then it would probably be just point and shoot, unless there were planets or a nebula near by.

ShAoLiN · Post by **ShAoLiN** » 2003-03-19 11:05pm

Thrawn would emerge victorious, no matter what. Simply because he would not allow himself to be put into a military / strategic situation, where defeat was inevitable. if he was in a battle and started losing he'd retreat, and wait for an opportunity for victory.

he didnt have a preternatural disposition to what his enemies would do. he simply studied their art, and learned their psychology then tailored his attacks in brilliant and imaginative schemes a race or persons' mind(s) would have trouble psychologically attempting to reason out a counter-strategy.

spock is more of a guru, then a tactician. he has high intelligence, strong knowledge, a disciplined mind. what he lacks are imaginative qualities, unpredictability, possibly adaptiveness as well. all of which are things thrawn has in abundance.

most of all, i dont think he has the will or the desire to lead any kind of military operation. and where there's no will - there can be no victory.

Fred Durst · Post by **Fred Durst** » 2003-03-21 04:56pm

Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-21 04:59pm

Fred Durst wrote:Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character

A what the hell leads you to that screwed up conclusion?

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-03-21 04:59pm

Fred Durst wrote:Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character

Name one super inteligent SF alien that is a master of space warfare.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-03-21 05:01pm

Oh yes, and:

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-21 05:01pm

Fred Durst wrote:Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character

ROTFLMAOU

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-21 05:05pm

Fred Durst wrote:Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character

ROTFLMAOU

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-21 05:50pm

Would a mod be willing to kill that double post?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-03-21 10:29pm

Fred Durst wrote:Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character

1. Who the hell are you?
2. What the hell kind of smoking have you been crack?
3. Provide evidence of your assertion or the rest of the board will flame you.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-03-21 10:43pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:
Fred Durst wrote:Thrawn is a wannabe Star Trek character
1. Who the hell are you?
2. What the hell kind of smoking have you been crack?
3. Provide evidence of your assertion or the rest of the board will flame you.

1. A troll of low intelligence.

2. Car fumes.

3. Has and will be as long as he continues his mindlessness.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-22 02:34am

The only problem with Thrawn is he relies on his intelligence sources too much. Most of his information was from Delta source. Also, he based almost all of his campaign off information received; he was defeated by not knowing everything, and occasionally making wrong conclusion. The rest of his genius came from knowing so much about psychology, and a broad range of knowledge (like the Thermal Detonator trap on Mon Cals). In a one on one against Spock, he would not have so many sources of information and so would be ever so slightly more vunerable.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-03-22 05:05pm

Darth Negation wrote:The only problem with Thrawn is he relies on his intelligence sources too much. Most of his information was from Delta source. Also, he based almost all of his campaign off information received; he was defeated by not knowing everything, and occasionally making wrong conclusion. The rest of his genius came from knowing so much about psychology, and a broad range of knowledge (like the Thermal Detonator trap on Mon Cals). In a one on one against Spock, he would not have so many sources of information and so would be ever so slightly more vunerable.

The problem with Thrawn was he trusted the Noghri too much.

Darth Negation · Post by **Darth Negation** » 2003-03-23 01:41am

He wouldn't have trusted them if he knew they knew that the Empire was keeping them subjugated. Not because of misjudging anyone, but incomplete information. If he had broadened his plan to accept other possibilities and not optimise them so much, he would probably be more effective (on the account of being slightly more alive).

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-23 08:04pm

Well, if Leia had just kept her big nose out, then he would be alive.

Mitth`raw`nuruodo · Post by **Mitth`raw`nuruodo** » 2003-03-23 08:24pm

I didn't read the whole thread here, so sorry if I say stuff already said/proven wrong, but I think Thrawn would win in an equal military engagment. He was a tactical genius. Thrawn considers not only military strength, but culture, old hatreds vs. other races', and a million other things (ok, not literally a MILLION, but you get the point) when planning his strategies, and, in case you haven't noticed, has some damn good ones.

Spock, on the other hand, is very logical and pretty smart, but he's a SCIENCE OFFICER. He isn't trained for war, his whole purpose on the Enterprise is to analyze things that Kirk finds while they're going where "No man has gone before!!!"

Now, if they are doing something other than military stuff, it could very well be the other way. I am really not sure in something such as chess, or Age of Empires (really is a great game, btw). Although it is conflict, "my plastic pieces vs your plastic pieces", it is also very... i dunno, maybe "the world will never know."

/me notes obscene use of quotation marks above and tries to stop that