disrespectful western tourists and earthquakes

[AniThyng]

The term "native" is very commonly used ( ironically also in the article I quoted, see again the part I quoted again just a few posts above) to refer to the aboriginal peoples of Borneo, in much the same way as native is used to refer to say, native Americans. It is not ever used to refer to say, peninsular Malays and certainly not 3rd generation Chinese immigrants like myself. The subtext that people from the more urbanized and westernized parts of Malaysia look down on and also economically exploit the Borneo states is quite evident, hence the unsavory comparison to western colonialism and white privilege.

[Thanas]

The term "native" is very commonly used ( ironically also in the article I quoted, see again the part I quoted again just a few posts above) to refer to the aboriginal peoples of Borneo, in much the same way as native is used to refer to say, native Americans. It is not ever used to refer to say, peninsular Malays and certainly not 3rd generation Chinese immigrants like myself. The subtext that people from the more urbanized and westernized parts of Malaysia look down on and also economically exploit the Borneo states is quite evident, hence the unsavory comparison to western colonialism and white privilege.

Sure, ok. What does that have to do with my post? Nothing, I would wager, much the same as this is not a reply to my previous question either. Can you actually address that?

[Jub]

Here's a question I'd like to ask. What harm would have been done by these tourists if the exact same act of getting naked happened, the same earthquake happened, but the pictures never came to light? The answer is obviously none, there is no possible harm in getting naked on top of a rock in a group of consenting adults. In light of that answer, I'm not inclined to take anybody getting bent out of shape over this seriously.

I'm going to mock these people for their religion just like I'd mock any other backwards fucker that thinks their delusions have any effect on reality. You're welcome to your religion until it starts to infringe upon the harmless actions of others and then you can fuck off, sit down, and learn to think rationally about how crazy you are.

[Thanas]

Here's a question I'd like to ask. What harm would have been done by these tourists if the exact same act of getting naked happened, the same earthquake happened, but the pictures never came to light? The answer is obviously none, there is no possible harm in getting naked on top of a rock in a group of consenting adults. In light of that answer, I'm not inclined to take anybody getting bent out of shape over this seriously.

You are a guest in my house.
I ask you to kindly respect my traditions and not sit on my rug.
You sit on my rug.

Do you get how rude and disrespectful that is?

Also, I swear, if your retort to that is going to be "no harm done unless I get caught" I will fucking lose it.

[Jub]

You are a guest in my house.
I ask you to kindly respect my traditions and not sit on my rug.
You sit on my rug.

Do you get how rude and disrespectful that is?

Also, I swear, if your retort to that is going to be "no harm done unless I get caught" I will fucking lose it.

It's rude, however being rude shouldn't be a crime worthy of being jailed any more than selling non-essential goods on a Sunday or drawing the prophet Mohamed should be crimes. If I sat on your rug I'd expect to be kicked out of your home and not invited back, not locked in your cellar while you make claims that my sitting on your rug killed your Grandmother. If you claimed that sitting on your rug caused you any harm beyond any other form of rudeness I'd laugh in your face.

[Purple]

It's rude, however being rude shouldn't be a crime worthy of being jailed any more than selling non-essential goods on a Sunday or drawing the prophet Mohamed should be crimes. If I sat on your rug I'd expect to be kicked out of your home and not invited back, not locked in your cellar while you make claims that my sitting on your rug killed your Grandmother. If you claimed that sitting on your rug caused you any harm beyond any other form of rudeness I'd laugh in your face.

So you agree it is a crime just not with the degree of punishment?

[Jub]

So you agree it is a crime just not with the degree of punishment?

No, being rude shouldn't be a crime nations just like home owners can ask people to leave for any reason they like criminal or not. I don't agree that this should be the case, mainly because I think the concept of nation states is flawed, but for now you can be asked to leave even if you have broken no laws.

[Purple]

So you agree it is a crime just not with the degree of punishment?

No, being rude shouldn't be a crime nations just like home owners can ask people to leave for any reason they like criminal or not. I don't agree that this should be the case, mainly because I think the concept of nation states is flawed, but for now you can be asked to leave even if you have broken no laws.

I don't really know how to respond to that.

[Jub]

Ghetto edit for clarity:

No, being rude shouldn't be a crime. Nations just like homeowners can ask people to leave for any reason they like; criminal or not. I don't agree that this should be the case, mainly because I think the concept of nation states is flawed, but for now you can be asked to leave even if you have broken no laws.

[Purple]

Ghetto edit for clarity:

No, being rude shouldn't be a crime. Nations just like homeowners can ask people to leave for any reason they like; criminal or not. I don't agree that this should be the case, mainly because I think the concept of nation states is flawed, but for now you can be asked to leave even if you have broken no laws.

I get what you are saying. I am just flat out not sure how to even respond to it because the very idea of finding nation states that have a right to impose their own rules and demand foreigners who visit obey them equally as any residents flawed is extremely alien to me. I just can not see why anyone would think that way.

[Jub]

I get what you are saying. I am just flat out not sure how to even respond to it because the very idea of finding nation states that have a right to impose their own rules and demand foreigners who visit obey them equally as any residents flawed is extremely alien to me. I just can not see why anyone would think that way.

That edit wasn't just for you. The grammar in that first post was bothering me and I missed the edit window to fix it properly.

Nation states are flawed because they serve to divide people and prevent freedom of movement and exchange. Hence why I like the idea, if not all of the implementation, of the European Union and the shared currency within it. As globalisation increases the world gets smaller and people are better equipped than ever to travel to new lands and live and work there, yet the ancient idea of nations persists and prevents us from doing so.

[Thanas]

It's rude, however being rude shouldn't be a crime worthy of being jailed any more than selling non-essential goods on a Sunday or drawing the prophet Mohamed should be crimes. If I sat on your rug I'd expect to be kicked out of your home and not invited back, not locked in your cellar while you make claims that my sitting on your rug killed your Grandmother. If you claimed that sitting on your rug caused you any harm beyond any other form of rudeness I'd laugh in your face.

However, if you knowingly visit a place where sitting on rugs can result in jail time, you don't really have anything to complain about. It was part of the deal. The people over there have no obligation to let people visit. If you visit, the very least anybody can ask you is to respect the place you visit. These people knowingly decided to flaunt their arrogant superiority. I have no sympathy for them.

[Purple]

Nation states are flawed because they serve to divide people and prevent freedom of movement and exchange. Hence why I like the idea, if not all of the implementation, of the European Union and the shared currency within it. As globalisation increases the world gets smaller and people are better equipped than ever to travel to new lands and live and work there, yet the ancient idea of nations persists and prevents us from doing so.

I basically disagree with that being a good thing. I would much prefer a world of independent nation states tied to different cultures than a single superstate melting pot.

[Jub]

However, if you knowingly visit a place where sitting on rugs can result in jail time, you don't really have anything to complain about. It was part of the deal. The people over there have no obligation to let people visit. If you visit, the very least anybody can ask you is to respect the place you visit. These people knowingly decided to flaunt their arrogant superiority. I have no sympathy for them.

That's true enough, but I can still shake my head that the Malaysians are prudish and backwards enough to care what happens on any given rock and for being ignorant enough to blame an earthquake on it.

I basically disagree with that being a good thing. I would much prefer a world of independent nation states tied to different cultures than a single superstate melting pot.

I don't see anything wrong with the free movement of people, goods, and ideas on a global scale. If your culture can only survive by isolation and xenophobia I don't think it's going to last long anyway. A culture should be examined to see how beneficial it is and have the best parts adopted and the less useful parts discarded. If that means some cultures are relegated to history, how is that any different than other cultures being lost to the past as times change and ideas are shared?

[Purple]

I don't see anything wrong with the free movement of people, goods, and ideas on a global scale. If your culture can only survive by isolation and xenophobia I don't think it's going to last long anyway. A culture should be examined to see how beneficial it is and have the best parts adopted and the less useful parts discarded. If that means some cultures are relegated to history, how is that any different than other cultures being lost to the past as times change and ideas are shared?

There are probably people here far more qualified than I to explain why cultures and cultural identities matter. And I am no good at explaining complicated things like that. At least not in English. But basically that sort of thinking runs contrary to the principals commonly held around the world and by many major international organizations. Think about why this is so.

[Jub]

There are probably people here far more qualified than I to explain why cultures and cultural identities matter. And I am no good at explaining complicated things like that. At least not in English. But basically that sort of thinking runs contrary to the principals commonly held around the world and by many major international organizations. Think about why this is so.

I think that a unified humanity with shared goals and ideals would benefit everybody and that as we move towards it the majority will wonder why it took so long to find a truly global language and set of ideals. We should understand how we came to be where we are and study where we came from, we should seek insight from our past but not be shackled to it.

[biostem]

However, if you knowingly visit a place where sitting on rugs can result in jail time, you don't really have anything to complain about. It was part of the deal. The people over there have no obligation to let people visit. If you visit, the very least anybody can ask you is to respect the place you visit. These people knowingly decided to flaunt their arrogant superiority. I have no sympathy for them.

That's true enough, but I can still shake my head that the Malaysians are prudish and backwards enough to care what happens on any given rock and for being ignorant enough to blame an earthquake on it.

I basically disagree with that being a good thing. I would much prefer a world of independent nation states tied to different cultures than a single superstate melting pot.

I don't see anything wrong with the free movement of people, goods, and ideas on a global scale. If your culture can only survive by isolation and xenophobia I don't think it's going to last long anyway. A culture should be examined to see how beneficial it is and have the best parts adopted and the less useful parts discarded. If that means some cultures are relegated to history, how is that any different than other cultures being lost to the past as times change and ideas are shared?

The problem is basically that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". You or I may disagree with imprisoning or prohibiting travel as a punishment for public nudity, bu that's what the laws are in that country, (whether these people are being targeted as a show of force/to make an example of, is another story). Similarly, I don't know how the legal system works in that country - is someone saying "they offended the gods" enough "evidence" to charge them with anything additional?

[AniThyng]

The term "native" is very commonly used ( ironically also in the article I quoted, see again the part I quoted again just a few posts above) to refer to the aboriginal peoples of Borneo, in much the same way as native is used to refer to say, native Americans. It is not ever used to refer to say, peninsular Malays and certainly not 3rd generation Chinese immigrants like myself. The subtext that people from the more urbanized and westernized parts of Malaysia look down on and also economically exploit the Borneo states is quite evident, hence the unsavory comparison to western colonialism and white privilege.

Sure, ok. What does that have to do with my post? Nothing, I would wager, much the same as this is not a reply to my previous question either. Can you actually address that?

It doesn't, I apologize, it is an aside and to also add context to the fact that the state where this occurred has a current history that can be loosely compared to to other territories where the aboriginal people have been sidelined or marginalized by external forces, which is why this takes on additional dimensions that wouldn't be there if say, it occurred in a conservative muslim part of the country, because Islam is dominant in malaysia in ways that aboriginal tribal customs are not.

I'm not really so interested in asking if it is right or wrong to charge the tourists with public indecency laws or native customary laws, I think we agree that they were clearly forewarned and deserved some consequences, no, what I'm asking is at what point does calling the people of Sabah "backwards" and "uneducated" turn into racism, and what it says about us when other Malaysians, from the comfort of their urban 21st century metropolis on the other side of the country apologize to Europeans for our "backwards and superstitious" countrymen.

I get that you feel that it's not actually racist to call them out on their stated beliefs.

[salm]

However, if you knowingly visit a place where sitting on rugs can result in jail time, you don't really have anything to complain about. It was part of the deal. The people over there have no obligation to let people visit. If you visit, the very least anybody can ask you is to respect the place you visit. These people knowingly decided to flaunt their arrogant superiority. I have no sympathy for them.

Would say that women from Norway who get jailed for getting raped in Dubai have nothing to complain because it was part of the deal? If not, where is the difference?

[Thanas]

However, if you knowingly visit a place where sitting on rugs can result in jail time, you don't really have anything to complain about. It was part of the deal. The people over there have no obligation to let people visit. If you visit, the very least anybody can ask you is to respect the place you visit. These people knowingly decided to flaunt their arrogant superiority. I have no sympathy for them.

Would say that women from Norway who get jailed for getting raped in Dubai have nothing to complain because it was part of the deal? If not, where is the difference?

Believe it or not, but there is a difference between innocent victim who by all accounts did not provoke anybody and "I am going to flaunt my dick in public because I disrespect you."

I get that you feel that it's not actually racist to call them out on their stated beliefs.

I am not familiar enough with Malaysia to make judgements on what ethnic groups inside it are racist or not, nor do I recall uttering an opinion about the Malay people and their racism (or non-racism). So I don't really think dragging me into that serves any purpose as I was only talking from the western perspective.

[Pelranius]

Incidentally, the two Canadian tourists were brother and sister.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... quake.html

[Elheru Aran]

Incidentally, the two Canadian tourists were brother and sister.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... quake.html

It's not that unusual for some families to be more casual about nudity taboos than others. It's not exactly common, but it does happen often enough that that mostly just gets a shrug on my end. Also note that even if they had a nudity taboo, they may have gone for the one time of stripping down just for the hell of it. I don't see it as a particularly important detail.

[salm]

However, if you knowingly visit a place where sitting on rugs can result in jail time, you don't really have anything to complain about. It was part of the deal. The people over there have no obligation to let people visit. If you visit, the very least anybody can ask you is to respect the place you visit. These people knowingly decided to flaunt their arrogant superiority. I have no sympathy for them.

Would say that women from Norway who get jailed for getting raped in Dubai have nothing to complain because it was part of the deal? If not, where is the difference?

Believe it or not, but there is a difference between innocent victim who by all accounts did not provoke anybody and "I am going to flaunt my dick in public because I disrespect you."

It is obvious that the Norwegian reporter did provoke people otherwise she would not have been jailed.

[Thanas]

It is obvious that the Norwegian reporter did provoke people otherwise she would not have been jailed.

No, it is not obvious to me. Perhaps you can explain how the situations are even similar?

[Sea Skimmer]

If these idiots had been alone I might have slight sympathy but they had a damn local tour guide with them whom insisted they not strip naked in front of him on a scared mountain. In the US I suspect you'd do a lot more jail time then 3 days if you did that.