Greek debt crisis [update: 3rd Bailout deal reached]

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Greek debt crisis [update: 3rd Bailout deal reached]

Post by bobalot »

Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.
By James K. Galbraith

The International Monetary Fund's chief economist, Olivier Blanchard, recently asked a simple and important question: "How much of an adjustment has to be made by Greece, how much has to be made by its official creditors?" But that raises two more questions: How much of an adjustment has Greece already made? And have its creditors given anything at all?

In May 2010, the Greek government agreed to a fiscal adjustment equal to 16 percent of GDP from 2010 to 2013. As a result, Greece moved from a primary budget deficit (which excludes interest payments on debt) of more than 10 percent of GDP to a primary balance last year -- by far the largest such reversal in post-crisis Europe.

The IMF initially projected that Greece's real (inflation-adjusted) GDP would contract by around 5 percent over the 2010-2011 period, stabilize in 2012, and grow thereafter. In fact, real GDP fell 25 percent, and did not recover. And, because nominal GDP fell in 2014 and continues to fall, the debt/GDP ratio, which was supposed to stabilize three years ago, continues to rise.

Blanchard notes that in 2012, Greece agreed "to generate enough of a primary surplus to limit its indebtedness" and to implement "a number of reforms which should lead to higher growth." Those so-called reforms included sharply lower public spending, minimum-wage reductions, fire-sale privatizations, an end to collective bargaining and deep pension cuts. Greece followed through, but the depression continued.

The IMF and Greece's other creditors have assumed that massive fiscal contraction has only a temporary effect on economic activity, employment and taxes, and that slashing wages, pensions and public jobs has a magical effect on growth. This has proved false. Indeed, Greece's post-2010 adjustment led to economic disaster -- and the IMF's worst predictive failure ever.

Blanchard should know better than to persist with this fiasco. Once the link between "reform" and growth is broken -- as it has been in Greece -- his argument collapses. With no path to growth, the creditors' demand for an eventual 3.5 percent-of-GDP primary surplus is actually a call for more contraction, beginning with another deep slump this year.

But, rather than recognizing this reality and adjusting accordingly, Blanchard doubles down on pensions. He writes:

Why insist on pensions? Pensions and wages account for about 75 percent of primary spending; the other 25 percent have already been cut to the bone. Pension expenditures account for over 16 percent of GDP, and transfers from the budget to the pension system are close to 10 percent of GDP. We believe a reduction of pension expenditures of 1 percent of GDP (out of 16 percent) is needed, and that it can be done while protecting the poorest pensioners.
Note first the damning admission: apart from pensions and wages, spending has already been "cut to the bone." And remember: the effect of this approach on growth was negative. So, in defiance of overwhelming evidence, the IMF now wants to target the remaining sector, pensions, where massive cuts -- more than 40 percent in many cases -- have already been made. The new cuts being demanded would hit the poor very hard.

Pension payments now account for 16 percent of Greek GDP precisely because Greece's economy is 25 percent smaller than it was in 2009. Without five years of disastrous austerity, Greek GDP might be 33 percent higher than it is now, and pensions would be 12 percent of GDP rather than 16 percent. The math is straightforward.

Blanchard calls on Greece's government to offer "truly credible measures." Shouldn't the IMF do likewise? To get pensions down by one percentage point of GDP, nominal economic growth of just 4 percent per year for two years would suffice -- with no further cuts. Why not have "credible measures" to achieve that goal?

This brings us to Greek debt. As everyone at the IMF knows, a debt overhang is a vast unfunded tax liability that says to investors: enter at your own risk. At any time, your investments, profits and hard work may be taxed away to feed the dead hand of past lenders. The overhang is a blockade against growth. That is why every debt crisis, sooner or later, ends in restructuring or default.

Blanchard is a pioneer in the economics of public debt. He knows that Greece's debt has not been sustainable at any point during the last five years, and that it is not sustainable now. On this point, Greece and the IMF agree.

In fact, Greece has a credible debt proposal. First, let the European Stabilization Mechanism lend €27 billion ($30 billion), at long maturities, to retire the Greek bonds that the European Central Bank foolishly bought in 2010. Second, use the profits on those bonds to pay off the IMF. Third, include Greece in the ECB's program of quantitative easing, which would let it return to the markets.

Greece would agree to fair conditions for the ESM loan. It does not ask for one cent of additional official funding for the Greek state. It is promising to live within its means forever, and rely on internal savings and external investment for growth -- far short of what any large country, controlling its own currency, would do when facing a comparable disaster.

Blanchard insists that now is the time for "tough choices, and tough commitments to be made on both sides." Indeed it is. But the Greeks have already made tough choices. Now it is the IMF's turn, beginning with the decision to admit that the policies it has imposed for five long years created a disaster. For the other creditors, the toughest choice is to admit -- as the IMF knows -- that their Greek debts must be restructured. New loans for failed policies -- the current joint creditor proposal -- is, for them, no adjustment at all.
Source

Considering, Greece has:
  • done the most economic reform from 2007-2014 according to the OECD
  • cut expenditure by a third, which is unprecedented in post WWII peacetime history.
  • cannot continue to cut it's national income (raising taxes and cutting spending) while attempting to pay down increasing debt in a depressed economy,
I don't see any other way out of this.

Of course, if Greece wasn't in the slow motion monetary disaster that is the Eurozone, it would have been able to devalue it's currency instead of having such massive cuts in wages, income and social spending while stimulating exports.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Stupid question. If they cut pensions, and people are apparently having a hard time enough there, what is there left if people don't have anything to spend?
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by bobalot »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Stupid question. If they cut pensions, and people are apparently having a hard time enough there, what is there left if people don't have anything to spend?
The economy shrinks, which is why government revenues have been falling faster than spending cuts.

Tax increases and severe spending cuts in a depressed economy is a self-defeating exercise.

It's not as if this is new information. This was discovered during the great depression but apparently ignored by the IMF, EU and the German government.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Purple »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Stupid question. If they cut pensions, and people are apparently having a hard time enough there, what is there left if people don't have anything to spend?
The short answer is nothing.

Put simply, a recession is what happens when demand falls driving down supply which in turn means less jobs and wages and thus less demand. Austerity is the act of cutting public jobs, welfare and other ways of getting people to have money which they can than spend. This too hurts demand and drives down supply which in turn once more leads to less jobs and less money to spend. Put simply, it's the act of cutting of a healthy arm in order to fix the fact your other arm is broken.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Nova Andromeda »

Note: the following assumes Greece has made serious progress in reforming its tax collection, corruption problems, public assistance, etc. As far as I can tell, Greece has made these changes or is making real sustained progress in that direction (especially with the election of the new gov.).

The EU forced Greek austerity has annoyed me for a while now and I've been hoping Greece finally sets a badly needed example and tells the lenders to go fuck themselves. Along this line of thought, it seems to me that the best strategy for the Greek people as a whole is to let things drag on as long as they can without paying toward their debt so that their people can shift their money out of Greek banks. While things come to a head, simply prepare for Greek default of both their banks and their gov. so that when that default happens the transition is well organized. When the default does happen, impose monetary controls such that no one can move money out of bankrupt Greek institutions. Next, people/corporations lose their money in this order: 1. the foreign lenders that setup this problem with the previous corrupt Greek gov. in the first place (read: IMF, EU, German banks, et alli), 2. foreign corporations (they take a 100% haircut on net profit) & the rich (all money above a certain large amount is lost according to age, net asset value, etc.), 3. Greek corporations (they take a 100% haircut on net profit), 4. everyone that isn't working and the rich again (they take a haircut on all money above a certain middling amount), 5. at this point everyone should have reset to a level playing field and so everyone will take further haircuts as needed on an equal basis. If I understand the scale of Greece's debt accurately, then I don't think you would need to go much past #1 or possibly #2 to make Greece and it's banks solvent going forward.

At this point, Greece is now solvent and generating a surplus while at the same time providing some level of health care and subsistence living for its people. It can stay in the monetary union and just carry on. Many institutions and gov. will be infuriated, but I somehow doubt investment will dry up from everyone (see possibly Russia/China/the pragmatic) ... after all Greece has cleaned up its act and its budget. It is very unlikely going forward that further investment will need to be written off as a loss and in any case all you lost this go around (if you were a productive corporation as opposed to an investor) is your recent net profits.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Starglider »

It is overwhelmingly obvious that the correct solution for Greece is to cancel the majority of government debt, and has been for the last five years. The problem is that making it too easy will cause several other European countries to demand the same treatment and several more to discard any remnant of fiscal prudence, knowing that they too will be bailed out ad infinitum.

Essentially the German master plan behind the euro was to force all of southern europe to stop behaving like southern europe (high inflation and direct monetisation of government debt) and act like northern Europe instead, making lots of money for German banks in the process. The result has been a slow motion train wreck with two possible outcomes; either northern europe allows unlimited monetisation, deals with any resulting inflation and hence becomes more like southern europe, or the eurozone disintigrates. The third outcome of a tightly integrated European superstate with the balance maintained by (much more) massive transfer payments was probably never politically feasible and certainly isn't now.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by bobalot »

Starglider wrote:Essentially the German master plan behind the euro was to force all of southern europe to stop behaving like southern europe (high inflation and direct monetisation of government debt) and act like northern Europe instead, making lots of money for German banks in the process. The result has been a slow motion train wreck with two possible outcomes; either northern europe allows unlimited monetisation, deals with any resulting inflation and hence becomes more like southern europe, or the eurozone disintigrates. The third outcome of a tightly integrated European superstate with the balance maintained by (much more) massive transfer payments was probably never politically feasible and certainly isn't now.
It's not like it's exactly working for Northern Europe either.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Starglider »

bobalot wrote:It's not like it's exactly working for Northern Europe either.
It's working for Germany. That is essentially why there has been a seemingly endless water torture of incremental bailouts and temporary agreements. France is starting to think about breaking ranks though.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by BabelHuber »

bobalot wrote:It's not like it's exactly working for Northern Europe either.
Image
This is a very nice Krugman-diagram with selective data.

Here are the official stats from Eurostat (2004-2014):

Image

As one can easily see, most EU-countries saw growth in 2014, with the exception of Croatia, Italy, Cyprus and Finland (and the latter had -0.1%, which I'd consider flat).

So the current Eu strategy is working. The biggest problem in Greece is that these Syriza-nutjobs were elected, who are about to destroy the achievements of the last years.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by His Divine Shadow »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Stupid question. If they cut pensions, and people are apparently having a hard time enough there, what is there left if people don't have anything to spend?
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by K. A. Pital »

BabelHuber wrote:The biggest problem in Greece is that these Syriza-nutjobs were elected
Democracy is always a problem, isn't it? Wouldn't it be nice to go back to the Black Colonel regime, so totally nice and predictable? :P
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by FTeik »

K. A. Pital wrote:
BabelHuber wrote:The biggest problem in Greece is that these Syriza-nutjobs were elected
Democracy is always a problem, isn't it? Wouldn't it be nice to go back to the Black Colonel regime, so totally nice and predictable? :P
Yeah, because Greece and the other problem-states would have gotten financial help, if the taxpayers of the lender-countries had been asked in a democratic election ... . :roll:
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Thanas »

Greece pays less percentage of GDP for debt service than France is for the next 25 years. How is that not sustainable?
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Babel, can you explain the discrepancy between the graph and the gigantic format-breaking .CSV table you showed? Using words, or highlighting the pieces of data that are relevant in some way? Otherwise you end up sounding like you're bluffing.

And Thanas, purely hypothetically, I can think of some reasons to explain why it might not be. For one, Greece has a far smaller GDP than France, and one that is actively shrinking. If we want Greece to maintain a First World standard of living, or anything close to one, it may not be possible for them to do that while paying X% of their GDP in debt service. They might need 100% of their GDP just to keep their heads above water, given how low their GDP now is.

Using US numbers because I'm most familiar with them...

If you make forty thousand dollars a year, paying 20% of your income in interest on a debt would make a major difference in your lifestyle. Because $32000 a year is MUCH closer to outright poverty than $40000 is.

If you make four hundred thousand dollars a year, paying 20% of your income in interest makes less of a practical difference- because at $320000 a year, you are still comfortably ensconced in the middle-upper class. Sure, you could probably afford an even bigger house, or a boat, or more luxurious hotels, on the higher salary... but it won't make the difference between a decent life and an indecent one.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Thanas »

Right, but we are not talking about those kind of numbers. Greece pays 2.2% of GDP for debt servicing for the next 25 years, which is much less than most other countries in Europe who are already paying 2.5-4% of GDP. In a state where they still haven't even managed to tax illegal construction or free workers like doctors, lawyers, agents etc. to boot, and where they have refused outside assistance in building such a system.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by BabelHuber »

Simon_Jester wrote:Babel, can you explain the discrepancy between the graph and the gigantic format-breaking .CSV table you showed? Using words, or highlighting the pieces of data that are relevant in some way? Otherwise you end up sounding like you're bluffing.
I'd say that the table is self-explanatory, but OK.

Look at the PIIGS-states: Except of Italy, which was still slightly in the minus in 2014, all show growth in 2014. Also, the trend seems to be that their economies are recovering.

Real GDP Growth of:

2011 2012 2013 2014
Portugal -1.8 -4.0 -1.6 +0.9
Italy +0.6 -2.8 -1.7 -0.4
Ireland +2.8 -0.3 +0.2 +4.8
Greece -8.8 -6.6 -3.9 +0.8
Spain -0.6 -2.1 -1.2 +1.4
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Thanas »

Meanwhile, in lolGreece! news:
But officials have revealed that Greece initially sent the wrong document to its creditors late last night, scuppering the prospects of a deal today.
"So you see the version that included what you were demanding? Wrong document."
http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... p-ecb-live
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Simon_Jester »

Thanas wrote:Right, but we are not talking about those kind of numbers. Greece pays 2.2% of GDP for debt servicing for the next 25 years, which is much less than most other countries in Europe who are already paying 2.5-4% of GDP. In a state where they still haven't even managed to tax illegal construction or free workers like doctors, lawyers, agents etc. to boot, and where they have refused outside assistance in building such a system.
Greece needs to rationalize and upgrade its tax infrastructure... on that, at least, we can agree.

But honestly, I suspect that the most advantageous thing Greece could do for its economic future if it DID start taxing effectively is NOT to pay off foreign loans. It would be to reinvest that money in the Greek economy to do all the things it used to do with debt financing. Because if Greece continues to not spend money on basic government functions, and minimizes money spent on welfare and pensions, then its economy will continue to collapse whether it pays off its foreign debts or not.
BabelHuber wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Babel, can you explain the discrepancy between the graph and the gigantic format-breaking .CSV table you showed? Using words, or highlighting the pieces of data that are relevant in some way? Otherwise you end up sounding like you're bluffing.
I'd say that the table is self-explanatory, but OK.

Look at the PIIGS-states: Except of Italy, which was still slightly in the minus in 2014, all show growth in 2014. Also, the trend seems to be that their economies are recovering.

Real GDP Growth of:

|||||||| 2011 2012 2013 2014
Portugal -1.8 -4.0 -1.6 +0.9
|||Italy +0.6 -2.8 -1.7 -0.4
|Ireland +2.8 -0.3 +0.2 +4.8
Greece -8.8 -6.6 -3.9 +0.8
||Spain -0.6 -2.1 -1.2 +1.4
None of which particularly undermines the 'Krugman graph,' which was making a specific point about what has happened to the real GDP of these nations since the 2007 recession. Namely, that as yet they have not recovered, even if they are just now beginning to recover, seven years after the recession hit and five or six years since some of them began to institute austerity measures.

With that large a time lag, it is questionable whether the measures taken by those countries at foreign assistance actually were the cause of the (slight) recovery being observed.

So the basic point of the graph remains valid- no large or medium European nation other than Germany and Slovakia has experienced noticeable NET increase in GDP over the 2007-2014 timescale. Even they haven't profited very much, but it still translates into a 1 or 2% annual increase in real GDP averaged over a timespan that includes a major recession, which isn't bad.

Meanwhile, another tranche of nations (Latvia, Austria, Estonia, France, Belgium, and arguably the Netherlands) are holding more or less steady, with net GDP having changed (on average) significantly less than 1% either way over the seven year period in question. The rest of Europe has averaged a GDP contraction of 1% or more per year over seven years, even if now things are finally at least beginning to start to bounce back.

This is a useful thing to observe, and leads to the following conclusions:

1) Whatever economic policies have been pursued by European states since the recession of 2007-08, they have not resulted in most of those nations having their fortunes restored to pre-recession conditions. At least, not yet. And probably not for the next five or more years, since 1%/year real GDP growth will take several years to erase the losses we're seeing on the graph.

2) A few nations (chiefly Germany and for some reason Slovakia) have gotten noticeably richer over that time.

3) Other nations (chiefly Greece and noted banking/tourist havens) have gotten drastically poorer, to the tune of 10-20 percent of their GDP having evaporated and not returned to them. Even if in theory their GDP is finally starting to increase again slowly, it will probably take another decade or more to rebuild to where they were in 2007.

So if we look at the 2007-14 timeframe, we have some nations getting richer, some nations breaking even, and some nations getting poorer. And the graph you criticized does a good job of telling us which is which.

There may be other information in the table that alters the significance of that observation. But that does not invalidate the graph, because one of the most fundamental of all economic questions is "Are you better off now than you were X years ago? Why or why not?"
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Tribble »

It's that pesky thing called democracy that's holding Greece back. If Syriza gives in here I can see the Greeks voting in even more extreme parties next time. Greece should have never been allowed to join the Euro, it never should have been given bail-outs when its problems became apparent, and the only reason I can think why the Euro-zone members are trying to keep Greece in right now is because they want to get as much of their money back as they can before Greece inevitability defaults.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Thanas »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Thanas wrote:Right, but we are not talking about those kind of numbers. Greece pays 2.2% of GDP for debt servicing for the next 25 years, which is much less than most other countries in Europe who are already paying 2.5-4% of GDP. In a state where they still haven't even managed to tax illegal construction or free workers like doctors, lawyers, agents etc. to boot, and where they have refused outside assistance in building such a system.
Greece needs to rationalize and upgrade its tax infrastructure... on that, at least, we can agree.

But honestly, I suspect that the most advantageous thing Greece could do for its economic future if it DID start taxing effectively is NOT to pay off foreign loans. It would be to reinvest that money in the Greek economy to do all the things it used to do with debt financing. Because if Greece continues to not spend money on basic government functions, and minimizes money spent on welfare and pensions, then its economy will continue to collapse whether it pays off its foreign debts or not.
Again, the Greeks are already getting a very good deal on their debt. In effect, the whole of Europe, including countries much poorer than Greece, are subsidizing them already. It is inconceivable to expect the poorer countries to pay more for the comparatively richer Greece. And it is inconceivable that Greek will get any more slack after spending half a year insulting the very people who lend them money at below-market conditions. They chose this.

What is the argument that says it is moral that poorer Slovenia is supposed to continue paying for Greece, and pay even more (because that is what will happen if Greece is allowed to not even do the little payments they already do) especially when Slovenia had the good sense to not get themselves into such a mess?

Tribble wrote:It's that pesky thing called democracy that's holding Greece back. If Syriza gives in here I can see the Greeks voting in even more extreme parties next time. Greece should have never been allowed to join the Euro, it never should have been given bail-outs when its problems became apparent, and the only reason I can think why the Euro-zone members are trying to keep Greece in right now is because they want to get as much of their money back as they can before Greece inevitability defaults.
If this was true we would not pour in around 2 bn of money per month but would cut the losses and seize whatever assets we can in retaliation. We would also not be planning emergency measures to help the greek populace in case their government collapses.And we would not care for reforms to make them competitive.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by K. A. Pital »

In this thread we learn that BabelHuber cannot differentiate between cumulative and yearly change, and responds to a graph with cumulative change for the entire 2007-2014 period with a statement that there was growth in 2014. :lol: He also fails to understand the difference between representative and direct democracy, criticizing Greeks for electing SYRIZA, but being offended by the fact democratically elected officials of other EU nations offered Greece assistance. What a joker.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Terralthra »

K. A. Pital wrote:In this thread we learn that BabelHuber cannot differentiate between cumulative and yearly change, and responds to a graph with cumulative change for the entire 2007-2014 period with a statement that there was growth in 2014. :lol: He also fails to understand the difference between representative and direct democracy, criticizing Greeks for electing SYRIZA, but being offended by the fact democratically elected officials of other EU nations offered Greece assistance. What a joker.
The chart he linked also hilariously "averages" the growths over successive years, rather than the mathematically appropriate answer of compounding changes.
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Starglider »

BabelHuber wrote:Look at the PIIGS-states: Except of Italy, which was still slightly in the minus in 2014, all show growth in 2014. Also, the trend seems to be that their economies are recovering.
Following seven years of historically unprecedented quantitative easing, zero interest rates and ever-increasing statistical fudges approaching USSR levels of delusion. We are now approaching the top of the credit cycle with pretty much all ammunition already fired. If that is the best 'growth' that can be mustered under bubble conditions, things are going to look very bleak once the current credit bubble pops. Meanwhile, European demographics continue to deteriorate (i.e. the dependency ratio continues to increase for most countries).
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by Thanas »

Meanwhile, word has started leaking out about the new Greek proposals, as usual they are not touching the vested interests instead focusing on squeezing small business:
Pensioners almost spared, private business bearing the brunt of the govt's new proposal. Political rather econ priorities
Alexis Tsipras has no plan for economic recovery in Greece. His only plan is to employ more government officials, to nationalize companies, and to make the citizens of other countries fund his policy. His government is failing to collect taxes at home, for example the taxes from illicit accounts in Switzerland.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Greece Has Made Tough Choices. Now It's the IMF's Turn.

Post by BabelHuber »

K. A. Pital wrote:In this thread we learn that BabelHuber cannot differentiate between cumulative and yearly change, and responds to a graph with cumulative change for the entire 2007-2014 period with a statement that there was growth in 2014. :lol: He also fails to understand the difference between representative and direct democracy, criticizing Greeks for electing SYRIZA, but being offended by the fact democratically elected officials of other EU nations offered Greece assistance. What a joker.
What a bullshit.

Krugman's graph is very selective to underscore his 'point' - he took the period from 2007 (just before the bankLeman Brothers crisis) to 2014, ignoring the PIIGS-states were hit hard another time in 2010/2011, but this time because of their own policy.

My graph is from Eurostat and shows that these economies have been starting to recover after they had to show some monetary disciplin and to apply reforms. Of course such a recovery cannot occur immediately - years (or in case of Geece decades) of misguided economic politics simply cannot be cured within a short time.

Of course I also know that a part of their population has a tough time meanwhile, but at least this recovery is sustainable in the end, opposite to the effect of overspending.
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