Mass Shooting At Black Church In South Carolina

[Metahive]

Everyone talks about the four world-wide attacks that might or might not have been islamic terrorism, while in the meantime black churches burn in the American South.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2015/06/2 ... rn-states/

[Flagg]

Everyone talks about the four world-wide attacks that might or might not have been islamic terrorism, while in the meantime black churches burn in the American South.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2015/06/2 ... rn-states/

N***ers don't matter, haven't you figured that out yet? How many unarmed blacks have to be shot with no repercussions for the shooter before that gets through to people? How many voter obstruction laws aimed at blacks have to be put in place by Republicans who have about as much black support as rectal herpes does among the general population before it gets through to people? How blatantly racist does our "justice system" (it really should be called the "incarceration system") have to get before it gets through to people? In America, especially the South, black lives don't matter. Or if they do, it's a lot less than the 3/5 of a white person like it used to be to stack the deck against the Northern states.

Martin Luther King Junior had a dream, not a prophecy.

[Channel72]

^ Well, clearly the 9 people who died mattered this time. Their deaths triggered a nationwide movement towards shunning the Confederate Flag - the fucking President of the US spoke at the funeral of the murdered pastor, and the shooter is probably going to get the death penalty, or at least life imprisonment. So clearly, we're at least making some progress here.

[Channel72]

Speaking of the Confederate Flag and Confederacy worship in the South - I think one of the reasons it has existed for so long, apart from simple racism, is that the American South really has no real culture or historical legacy to speak of, apart from the Antebellum South. It's very natural, and all too human, for people to seek some kind of connection or sense of identity and pride via the culture they come from. But American Southerners just don't have any cultural or historical legacy apart from the Antebellum South.

Since we often make the comparison with Nazi Germany, it's important to note that Germans have an enormous wealth of cultural and historical legacy to identify with, apart from the decade or so in the 1930/40s that smeared their legacy with a major black mark. But the point is, Nazi Germany hardly represents the entirety of German cultural and historical legacy - it's a major black mark on it to be sure, but Germans can still be proud of the centuries of literary, scientific and cultural contributions that came from the Teutonic people, going back to the fucking Norse Eddas.

But the American South has no cultural heritage to speak of other than the Antebellum South - which, for all its touted "chivalry" or whatever, was nothing but a horrifying slave state where slave owners regularly beat, murdered and raped their slaves. While I have zero sympathy for Confederacy worship or those who seek to find some kind of "good side" or "honor" in the Old South, I do understand why Southerners at least want to whitewash their history - they've got nothing else to satisfy their natural human inclinations to find some culture or people to identify with.

As a side note, I think identifying yourself with a particular culture or people is pretty overrated. I don't really particularly care that much about my own ethnic background - I basically just see myself as an American/New Yorker if anything - but I do at least understand the drive or inclination to identify with something larger than yourself, and to that extent I ... well, let's say... pity the American South for it's pathetic and dark heritage.

[Metahive]

^ Well, clearly the 9 people who died mattered this time. Their deaths triggered a nationwide movement towards shunning the Confederate Flag - the fucking President of the US spoke at the funeral of the murdered pastor, and the shooter is probably going to get the death penalty, or at least life imprisonment. So clearly, we're at least making some progress here.

Only if this turns out to be the start of a lasting development towards nation-wide demythologizing of the South and not just the usual mindless actionism about the outrage-du jour.

[Block]

^ Well, clearly the 9 people who died mattered this time. Their deaths triggered a nationwide movement towards shunning the Confederate Flag - the fucking President of the US spoke at the funeral of the murdered pastor, and the shooter is probably going to get the death penalty, or at least life imprisonment. So clearly, we're at least making some progress here.

Only if this turns out to be the start of a lasting development towards nation-wide demythologizing of the South and not just the usual mindless actionism about the outrage-du jour.

What a completely bullshit standard. That his killing was even considered an outrage shows that their lives and deaths did matter. Do you ever not hyperbolize to the point that your argument becomes meaningless?

[Batman]

What's bullshit about wanting it to a turn into a lasting development vs the 'a few weeks, tops' issue that's 'typical' of US mass media, whereafter the attention will focus back onto celebrity marriages, divorces, drug addiction and other completely unimportant stuff?

[Ralin]

What's bullshit about wanting it to a turn into a lasting development vs the 'a few weeks, tops' issue that's 'typical' of US mass media, whereafter the attention will focus back onto celebrity marriages, divorces, drug addiction and other completely unimportant stuff?

Nothing, but it has nothing to do with the fact that clearly these nine people being murdered does matter and is being taken at least as seriously as any other murder spree.

[Metahive]

What's bullshit about wanting it to a turn into a lasting development vs the 'a few weeks, tops' issue that's 'typical' of US mass media, whereafter the attention will focus back onto celebrity marriages, divorces, drug addiction and other completely unimportant stuff?

Nothing, but it has nothing to do with the fact that clearly these nine people being murdered does matter and is being taken at least as seriously as any other murder spree.

You and Block are being obtuse for whatever reason. So then let's be more concrete. Tell me, how many school shootings have there been since Columbine? At least half a dozen? Then tell me, how many of them led to a lasting change or even a serious debate about american gun culture? Eh, how about, none of them? People mourned and wrung their hands for a few weeks but then all went back to business as usual.

Dead children failed to motivate a lasting change. Let that sink in.

So please forgive me if I'm rather pessimistic about the chances of this actually enduring past a few weeks before people's attention is depleted and they go back to the status quo. If it happens, well, all the better for you, just don't expect me to bet on it.

[Ralin]

None of which is relevant to the post you quoted saying that these murders clearly matter to the US at large and that this is progress over the post. So kindly fuck off and find some other tragedy to turn into a soapbox for whatever ax you're looking to grind

[Metahive]

None of which is relevant to the post you quoted saying that these murders clearly matter to the US at large and that this is progress over the post. So kindly fuck off and find some other tragedy to turn into a soapbox for whatever ax you're looking to grind

It's immensely relevant since it shows that the US has a lot of cultural inertia to overcome when it comes to these things. Also, what I want is for the US to make a lasting change for the better, to stop neo-confederate worship and gain a different outlook on their gun culture. That you and Block condemn me for it just proves that this will blow over and nothing will change in the long run since you react allergic for anyone trying to shake up the status quo.

[Ralin]

Do you hear that, Metahive? That was the sound of the point flying over your head

[Metahive]

Do you hear that, Metahive? That was the sound of the point flying over your head

No, that was the point dying of embarassment because you so persistently fail to grasp it.

What's so hard to get here? Channel72 says that change is coming because people are mourning the nine shot people. I say that this is a premature attitude as they mourned about all the dead children in the recent school-shootings as well and nothing actually happened afterwards. Do I need to break out the crayons and draw you a pretty picture until it sinks in?

[Ralin]

Do you hear that, Metahive? That was the sound of the point flying over your head

No, that was the point dying of embarassment because you so persistently fail to grasp it.

What's so hard to get here? Channel72 says that change is coming because people are mourning the nine shot people. I say that this is a premature attitude as they mourned about all the dead children in the recent school-shootings as well and nothing actually happened afterwards. Do I need to break out the crayons and draw you a pretty picture until it sinks in?

He said that things have changed. Not that we are moving toward new progress. In response to Flagg's "black lives don't matter" post. The point is that you're responding to what you apparently wish he said as a seque into what you clearly want to talk about instead

[Metahive]

He said that things have changed. Not that we are moving toward new progress. In response to Flagg's "black lives don't matter" post. The point is that you're responding to what you apparently wish he said as a seque into what you clearly want to talk about instead

Well, clearly the 9 people who died mattered this time. Their deaths triggered a nationwide movement towards shunning the Confederate Flag - the fucking President of the US spoke at the funeral of the murdered pastor, and the shooter is probably going to get the death penalty, or at least life imprisonment. So clearly, we're at least making some progress here.

That they shun confederate paraphernalia now doesn't matter if it's all back in a few weeks. That's what I said:

Only if this turns out to be the start of a lasting development towards nation-wide demythologizing of the South and not just the usual mindless actionism about the outrage-du jour.

I really shouldn't have had to quote this here, it would have taken you very little effort to go back and read it. Why did you so obviously not do so?

[Flagg]

Do you hear that, Metahive? That was the sound of the point flying over your head

No, that was the point dying of embarassment because you so persistently fail to grasp it.

What's so hard to get here? Channel72 says that change is coming because people are mourning the nine shot people. I say that this is a premature attitude as they mourned about all the dead children in the recent school-shootings as well and nothing actually happened afterwards. Do I need to break out the crayons and draw you a pretty picture until it sinks in?

He said that things have changed. Not that we are moving toward new progress. In response to Flagg's "black lives don't matter" post. The point is that you're responding to what you apparently wish he said as a seque into what you clearly want to talk about instead

I mean I hope that the 9 victims become martyrs and things get better, but the only reason this was major national news is because it was a mass shooting in a religious house of worship and 9 people died. It would have been major national news if it had been 9 people of any race or denomination killed in any religious holy building. Just like the Sikh Temple Massacre was. The difference of course is that so far, in the immediate aftermath (when only soulless people and organizations like Rush Limbaugh and the NRA ramp up their shit-flinging instead of stopping for a bit or even just keeping it at a lower profile) there has been some action taken concerning the Confederate Battle Flag, which is great, but it's also just another scapegoat when the real culprits are still institutionalized racism and the obscenely easy access assholes like the shooter have to guns.

So really all that's changed at this point is that a symbol of hate that has been used as such off and on (pretty much "on", non stop) since the mid-20th century when the civil rights movement gained almost unstoppable momentum, has finally become seen as such by enough otherwise sane southerners that it's likely it will mainly be seen on the tailgates and rear windows of trucks driven by racist shits and in museums. Which is great. But it's still a scapegoat. It's just a scapegoat no one but die hard "The South Shall Rise Again!!!" dipshits will miss. I hope they gather mounds of them and burn them in public squares while singing or humming "The Battle Hymn of the Republic". But then I also hope for immortality, so...

But has this made black lives matter more than they did before? I've seen no evidence of that yet, but I hope it has. I really do. But those that live solely on hope will largely live lives of disappointment. Still, I really do hope this has turned a tragedy into a triumph for equality and the son of a bitch that pulled the trigger and kept on doing it lives a nice long life behind bars to witness it.

[Channel72]

The difference of course is that so far, in the immediate aftermath (when only soulless people and organizations like Rush Limbaugh and the NRA ramp up their shit-flinging instead of stopping for a bit or even just keeping it at a lower profile) there has been some action taken concerning the Confederate Battle Flag, which is great, but it's also just another scapegoat when the real culprits are still institutionalized racism and the obscenely easy access assholes like the shooter have to guns.

Yeah, but racism is only institutional because people in general are racist, especially below the Mason Dixon line - and there's no immediate action that can be taken to solve that. Racism is like a really tough stain, but it eventually fades over time (usually over decades and centuries, as new generations come of age.)

In the meantime, the only thing you can do is chip away at it. Removing the Confederate Flag is just one more small step. That's really all it is, but it's still really awesome.

Of course we have idiot backlash like this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /29406303/

But the idea is to slowly reduce those people to irrelevance.

The real problem is the more subtler forms of racism which you see everywhere, not just in the South. The other day I was on a train going from New Jersey into NY, and there was a black passenger a few seats down from me. When the conductor arrived to collect his ticket, the guy said he didn't have a ticket, or any money to pay for a ticket. So the conductor was like "get off at the next stop", and then he made some comment like "maybe if you weren't on drugs you'd be able to afford a ticket." Of course, I just know the conductor would never have made that kind of a comment to a white man with no ticket. He'd probably still kick him off the train, but he wouldn't have made that insulting comment.

It's shit like this that is ultimately a major problem - because this mentality is the same reason why cops perceive black men as more of a threat and end up shooting them. And as far as I can see - the only solution to this is time. And I don't mean that the passage of time will somehow automatically make racism magically disappear - I mean that enough time must pass wherein whites and blacks eventually reach economic parity. That's why programs like affirmative action are so important, despite the fact that they're technically unfair. When whites and blacks reach economic parity, the sort of latent racism I'm talking about will simply fail to materialize for the most part (apart from die-hard racists, who will at that point be irrelevant anyway), since stereotypes about black people are, for the most part, less about some bullshit Neo-Nazi racial ideology and more about the fact that on average, black people actually are poorer and less educated than white people. As soon as that changes on a large-scale, things will change significantly. (Again, look at the case of model minorities, like Asians, who have already reached economic parity with whites.)

[Flagg]

The difference of course is that so far, in the immediate aftermath (when only soulless people and organizations like Rush Limbaugh and the NRA ramp up their shit-flinging instead of stopping for a bit or even just keeping it at a lower profile) there has been some action taken concerning the Confederate Battle Flag, which is great, but it's also just another scapegoat when the real culprits are still institutionalized racism and the obscenely easy access assholes like the shooter have to guns.

Yeah, but racism is only institutional because people in general are racist, especially below the Mason Dixon line - and there's no immediate action that can be taken to solve that. Racism is like a really tough stain, but it eventually fades over time (usually over decades and centuries, as new generations come of age.)

In the meantime, the only thing you can do is chip away at it. Removing the Confederate Flag is just one more small step. That's really all it is, but it's still really awesome.

Of course we have idiot backlash like this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /29406303/

But the idea is to slowly reduce those people to irrelevance.

The real problem is the more subtler forms of racism which you see everywhere, not just in the South. The other day I was on a train going from New Jersey into NY, and there was a black passenger a few seats down from me. When the conductor arrived to collect his ticket, the guy said he didn't have a ticket, or any money to pay for a ticket. So the conductor was like "get off at the next stop", and then he made some comment like "maybe if you weren't on drugs you'd be able to afford a ticket." Of course, I just know the conductor would never have made that kind of a comment to a white man with no ticket. He'd probably still kick him off the train, but he wouldn't have made that insulting comment.

It's shit like this that is ultimately a major problem - because this mentality is the same reason why cops perceive black men as more of a threat and end up shooting them. And as far as I can see - the only solution to this is time. And I don't mean that the passage of time will somehow automatically make racism magically disappear - I mean that enough time must pass wherein whites and blacks eventually reach economic parity. That's why programs like affirmative action are so important, despite the fact that they're technically unfair. When whites and blacks reach economic parity, the sort of latent racism I'm talking about will simply fail to materialize for the most part (apart from die-hard racists, who will at that point be irrelevant anyway), since stereotypes about black people are, for the most part, less about some bullshit Neo-Nazi racial ideology and more about the fact that on average, black people actually are poorer and less educated than white people. As soon as that changes on a large-scale, things will change significantly. (Again, look at the case of model minorities, like Asians, who have already reached economic parity with whites.)

Pretty much agree with everything you said. But the point is still the same: Do black lives matter to the US non-black population in general any more than they did before the church shooting? I say "no", and you did an excellent job of illustrating why. Yes, a symbol of hatred and oppression is now (more) taboo and it's presence on statehouse grounds and other parks will soon (hopefully, the cowards who were for it before and against it now can always be swayed by their constituencies who are largely racist shits thanks to gerrymandering into keeping it up) be a thing of the past like it was before the mid 20th century [ignorant racist southerner]when them n***ers got uppity for good[/ignorant racist southerner] only taught about in history classes and displayed in museums and accurate depictions of its use in art. But the racists who have it plastered all over their truck-boat-trucks haven't gone anywhere.

[Elheru Aran]

Speaking of the Confederate Flag and Confederacy worship in the South - I think one of the reasons it has existed for so long, apart from simple racism, is that the American South really has no real culture or historical legacy to speak of, apart from the Antebellum South. It's very natural, and all too human, for people to seek some kind of connection or sense of identity and pride via the culture they come from. But American Southerners just don't have any cultural or historical legacy apart from the Antebellum South.

Since we often make the comparison with Nazi Germany, it's important to note that Germans have an enormous wealth of cultural and historical legacy to identify with, apart from the decade or so in the 1930/40s that smeared their legacy with a major black mark. But the point is, Nazi Germany hardly represents the entirety of German cultural and historical legacy - it's a major black mark on it to be sure, but Germans can still be proud of the centuries of literary, scientific and cultural contributions that came from the Teutonic people, going back to the fucking Norse Eddas.

But the American South has no cultural heritage to speak of other than the Antebellum South - which, for all its touted "chivalry" or whatever, was nothing but a horrifying slave state where slave owners regularly beat, murdered and raped their slaves. While I have zero sympathy for Confederacy worship or those who seek to find some kind of "good side" or "honor" in the Old South, I do understand why Southerners at least want to whitewash their history - they've got nothing else to satisfy their natural human inclinations to find some culture or people to identify with.

As a side note, I think identifying yourself with a particular culture or people is pretty overrated. I don't really particularly care that much about my own ethnic background - I basically just see myself as an American/New Yorker if anything - but I do at least understand the drive or inclination to identify with something larger than yourself, and to that extent I ... well, let's say... pity the American South for it's pathetic and dark heritage.

Note: the entire United States, apart from the First Nations/Native Americans, doesn't have much history to start with. A few sporadic bands of European settlers here and there, then the colonies in the 1700s and so forth from there-- only around 150-some years by the time of the Civil War across the board. The Antebellum South is not unique in that regard. The nature of its history is, granted.

[Titan Uranus]

Speaking of the Confederate Flag and Confederacy worship in the South - I think one of the reasons it has existed for so long, apart from simple racism, is that the American South really has no real culture or historical legacy to speak of, apart from the Antebellum South. It's very natural, and all too human, for people to seek some kind of connection or sense of identity and pride via the culture they come from. But American Southerners just don't have any cultural or historical legacy apart from the Antebellum South.

Since we often make the comparison with Nazi Germany, it's important to note that Germans have an enormous wealth of cultural and historical legacy to identify with, apart from the decade or so in the 1930/40s that smeared their legacy with a major black mark. But the point is, Nazi Germany hardly represents the entirety of German cultural and historical legacy - it's a major black mark on it to be sure, but Germans can still be proud of the centuries of literary, scientific and cultural contributions that came from the Teutonic people, going back to the fucking Norse Eddas.

But the American South has no cultural heritage to speak of other than the Antebellum South - which, for all its touted "chivalry" or whatever, was nothing but a horrifying slave state where slave owners regularly beat, murdered and raped their slaves. While I have zero sympathy for Confederacy worship or those who seek to find some kind of "good side" or "honor" in the Old South, I do understand why Southerners at least want to whitewash their history - they've got nothing else to satisfy their natural human inclinations to find some culture or people to identify with.

As a side note, I think identifying yourself with a particular culture or people is pretty overrated. I don't really particularly care that much about my own ethnic background - I basically just see myself as an American/New Yorker if anything - but I do at least understand the drive or inclination to identify with something larger than yourself, and to that extent I ... well, let's say... pity the American South for it's pathetic and dark heritage.

What do you base this statement that the south has no real culture on?
Disregarding the fact, for the moment that there are several different cultures in the southern U.S., all tied together.

[Civil War Man]

Note: the entire United States, apart from the First Nations/Native Americans, doesn't have much history to start with. A few sporadic bands of European settlers here and there, then the colonies in the 1700s and so forth from there-- only around 150-some years by the time of the Civil War across the board. The Antebellum South is not unique in that regard. The nature of its history is, granted.

Cultural heritage in the US is typically divided on state or ethnic lines. You still see that in the South (just look at the difference between barbecue in South and North Carolina), but it is still relatively unique in there being some kind of overarching Southern heritage. You never hear anyone talk about Northern heritage or West Coast heritage, mainly due to the massive amount of immigration over the years.

What do you base this statement that the south has no real culture on?
Disregarding the fact, for the moment that there are several different cultures in the southern U.S., all tied together.

There are several different cultures tied together in the South. The thing is, the common thread tying all of those cultures together is the whole issue. The shared experiences of the southern US states consist primarily of slavery, the Civil War, Reconstruction, Jim Crow, and the Civil Rights era.

[jwl]

^ Well, clearly the 9 people who died mattered this time. Their deaths triggered a nationwide movement towards shunning the Confederate Flag - the fucking President of the US spoke at the funeral of the murdered pastor, and the shooter is probably going to get the death penalty, or at least life imprisonment. So clearly, we're at least making some progress here.

The president of the US knew the guy, he would have spoken there if it was a murder under ordinary circumstances.

Also who cares about the history of some flag. Most places have had a bad history at some point, get over it. There's a very significant probability that richard III was a child murderer, it doesn't stop me waving the white rose of york (or indeed some people saying there's no chance at all of him doing anything wrong, again, I don't see much of a problem with that either).

[Channel72]

What do you base this statement that the south has no real culture on?

I didn't say the South has no culture. In fact, I pretty much said the opposite. Please read things before hitting the quote button next time.

Also who cares about the history of some flag. Most places have had a bad history at some point, get over it. There's a very significant probability that richard III was a child murderer, it doesn't stop me waving the white rose of york (or indeed some people saying there's no chance at all of him doing anything wrong, again, I don't see much of a problem with that either).

OMG you are so right! You really know how to cut through all the crap and tell it like it is. Clearly, flags and other icons don't matter at all. That's great news, because honestly, the SS had a great sense of fashion. From now on I'm just going to wear a SS uniform to work because it looks totally chic. I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with that. Pfft... humans... and their stupid obsession with like, "symbols" and shit, right?

[Flagg]

^ Well, clearly the 9 people who died mattered this time. Their deaths triggered a nationwide movement towards shunning the Confederate Flag - the fucking President of the US spoke at the funeral of the murdered pastor, and the shooter is probably going to get the death penalty, or at least life imprisonment. So clearly, we're at least making some progress here.

The president of the US knew the guy, he would have spoken there if it was a murder under ordinary circumstances.

Also who cares about the history of some flag. Most places have had a bad history at some point, get over it. There's a very significant probability that richard III was a child murderer, it doesn't stop me waving the white rose of york (or indeed some people saying there's no chance at all of him doing anything wrong, again, I don't see much of a problem with that either).

Hey, you realize that this flag is used as a symbol of hate and oppression right now by racist shits, right? Or is your argument "Who cares if it terrorizes an entire community, in a few centuries no one will care or remember what it stands for?"

Because my reply would be "That's nice, in a few centuries if someone takes a liking to it and no one remembers or cares, super!"

[jwl]

I don't care or remember what it stands for right now. I mean, I know it stands for the american south in the civil war, but only because I was prompted by this thread to google it. But there's a major difference between the american civil war and WWII: the civil war was ages ago and no-one alive remembers it (also, there is no video of the thing). You can say the same about the war of the roses.