Mass Shooting At Black Church In South Carolina

[Metahive]

I don't care or remember what it stands for right now. I mean, I know it stands for the american south in the civil war, but only because I was prompted by this thread to google it. But there's a major difference between the american civil war and WWII: the civil war was ages ago and no-one alive remembers it (also, there is no video of the thing). You can say the same about the war of the roses.

"The civil war was ages go no one alive remembers it ", do you mean no one's alive who actively participated in it? Because there're plenty of living people who know about it even today.

Also, nice work of you ignoring what Flagg said. The Confederate Battle Flag is right now used by racists and bigots as a symbol to rally around and there're people who suffer from the sentiment represented by the flag so you personally not caring or not knowing about it is utterly irrelevant. The world doesn't revolve around you alone, y'know.

[jwl]

I don't care or remember what it stands for right now. I mean, I know it stands for the american south in the civil war, but only because I was prompted by this thread to google it. But there's a major difference between the american civil war and WWII: the civil war was ages ago and no-one alive remembers it (also, there is no video of the thing). You can say the same about the war of the roses.

"The civil war was ages go no one alive remembers it ", do you mean no one's alive who actively participated in it? Because there're plenty of living people who know about it even today.

Well, yeah, obviously. Having living people who fought in WWII and saw the holocaust (or knowing someone who did), makes it much more relevant to today.

Also, nice work of you ignoring what Flagg said. The Confederate Battle Flag is right now used by racists and bigots as a symbol to rally around and there're people who suffer from the sentiment represented by the flag so you personally not caring or not knowing about it is utterly irrelevant. The world doesn't revolve around you alone, y'know.

Almost every flag in existence is used by racists to rally around, what makes this any different?

[Civil War Man]

I don't care or remember what it stands for right now. I mean, I know it stands for the american south in the civil war, but only because I was prompted by this thread to google it. But there's a major difference between the american civil war and WWII: the civil war was ages ago and no-one alive remembers it (also, there is no video of the thing). You can say the same about the war of the roses.

"The civil war was ages go no one alive remembers it ", do you mean no one's alive who actively participated in it? Because there're plenty of living people who know about it even today.

Well, yeah, obviously. Having living people who fought in WWII and saw the holocaust (or knowing someone who did), makes it much more relevant to today.

By this logic, in a few decades it won't matter what the Nazi flag stood for, because no one who was alive during World War II will be alive then. The belief that you seem to have that history is only relevant for a single generation is idiotic beyond words.

Almost every flag in existence is used by racists to rally around, what makes this any different?

Because the Confederate flag has always stood for a violent rebellion with white supremacy as its founding principle? Or maybe because it's been frequently used by active campaigns of terrorism and murder since then, up to and including the killings this month?

[Metahive]

If there was a major childkiller organization that used the White Rose of York as their emblem to rally around you could be sure lots of people would care no matter how far the War of the Roses lie in the past.

Almost every flag in existence is used by racists to rally around, what makes this any different?

Because no modern country actually flies the flag and so it's exclusive use is to represent hate, racism and white supremacy? As I've already said, there's plenty of people in the US who are directly affected by the actions and sentiments associated with that flag, are you honestly telling them to shut and suck it up? You're honestly one blind and privileged puppy.

[Patroklos]

"It's exclusive use"

Prove the above.

[Alyrium Denryle]

"It's exclusive use"

Prove the above.

Outside historical reenactment, yes. Who flies the thing? Confederate apologists who are ipso facto racists (which includes the state governments of Mississippi and South Carolina, if not the individual members of said government, but the institutions themselves), and white supremacists.

[Metahive]

The fucking swastika has more varied uses than the fucking confederate battle flag. So why don't you take your obtuse troll request and stuff it up your ass?

[Channel72]

"It's exclusive use"

Prove the above.

Can you please elaborate on why you take issue with the phrase "exclusive use" here?

Apart from explicit racism, the Confederate flag is used as a symbol of Southern culture and heritage. But as I mentioned earlier, Southern culture and heritage does not exist apart from the Antebellum South and the history of slavery and post-abolition oppression that goes along with it. Thus, its usage in that regard basically amounts to implicit racism. Obviously, more people are willing to tolerate this as it can be passed off as harmless provincialism (c.f. the Dukes of Hazzard), but that really doesn't make it any less implicitly racist.

So, in what possible context is the Confederate flag not a symbol of either overt or implicit racism (apart from historical reenactments, artistic or educational contexts?)

[Patroklos]

That would make sense if the flag de jure for US racists was not normally and overwhelmingly the U.S. flag. However that is a good test, does someone flying it a professed symbol of the South accept that in that context they have to include slavery and Jim Crow along with an agricultural tradition and say post Civil War Southern military tradition for instance.

My point is there are a lot of people here seemingly caught up in the moment and or just smelling blood in the water making ridiculous statements. The above in question was ridiculous. The person who said it themselves backed away from it. Confronted they brought up reenactment stuff. When I asked it myself I was thinking of the recent removal of the various Confederate flags from the Fort Sumter flag display (showing all the flags ever raised over the fort). I am pretty sure no Civil War game designer is expressing racism when then put a little pixel flag in there. But it was claimed its exclusive use was racism.

Even the we go back to personal use how can anyone get to dictate the intent of a user of any symbol. You can say they should know better, or that the are using it wrong based on what you think it should represent, or maybe if you have an overt reason to question a particular individual or sub group based on more data. But just as a matter of course declaring you know exactly what a symbol is being used for in any circumstance and it has to be one thing, often in opposition to the expressed intent of the individual in question? That's just ignorant. It's also highly convienient and lazy as an arguement.

[Metahive]

My point is there are a lot of people here seemingly caught up in the moment and or just smelling blood in the water making ridiculous statements. The above in question was ridiculous. The person who said it themselves backed away from it.

I didn't back away from anything and neither did Alyrium. What, you think people can't just scroll up and see what's going on?

When I asked it myself I was thinking of the recent removal of the various Confederate flags from the Fort Sumter flag display (showing all the flags ever raised over the fort). I am pretty sure no Civil War game designer is expressing racism when then put a little pixel flag in there. But it was claimed its exclusive use was racism.

O man, another concrete thinker on the web, what a surprising discovery.

If I had said "The exclusive use of the Nazi Flag is for the expression of hate and racism", would you have gone into the same spiel about how it's used without that purpose in historical movies, games and documentaries? Fuck, man, please tell you would because then you'd be at least consistently anal-retentive.

Even the we go back to personal use how can anyone get to dictate the intent of a user of any symbol. You can say they should know better, or that the are using it wrong based on what you think it should represent, or maybe if you have an overt reason to question a particular individual or sub group based on more data. But just as a matter of course declaring you know exactly what a symbol is being used for in any circumstance and it has to be one thing, often in opposition to the expressed intent of the individual in question? That's just ignorant. It's also highly convienient and lazy as an arguement.

"I'm just wearing this vintage swastika armband because it goes nicely with my dress"
"You do know what this thing actually stands for?"
"A boo-hoo, some shmoe on the internet said that intent is all that matters and I only want to look pretty so who cares? You're just being politically correct!"

[Metahive]

Just to kill this troll tangent of Patroklos as well, he's attempting to altering a comment made about what the flag represents into a comment made about the intentions of those using it. Once again, Patroklos is not arguing in good faith by either deliberately distoring the original comment or not taking the time to actually understand what's been said.

I see increasingly less reason to even bother with his comments on this issue any more.

[Edi]

The intent of whoever flies the Confederate flag is irrelevant to what the flag symbolizes. If, for whatever personal symbolism, someone is stupid enough to fly a flag whose full historical symbolism they do not understand, they have absolutely zero justification to bitch and moan about how they are getting reviled and spat on as a supporter of the full symbolism of that flag. That's their own fucking problem.

There is no reason not to assume that a person flying the Confederate flag is not in fact a racist, because it has been pointed out well enough and that flag came into prominence again as a symbol of opposition to civil rights for blacks in the south. In other words, fly that flag and you ARE guilty until proven innocent and fuck you if you have a problem with it.

In this respect, it is no different than what is assumed of anyone who flies the Nazi flag.

[Flagg]

"It's exclusive use"

Prove the above.

Outside historical reenactment, yes. Who flies the thing? Confederate apologists who are ipso facto racists (which includes the state governments of Mississippi and South Carolina, if not the individual members of said government, but the institutions themselves), and white supremacists.

Well, tbh my Granfather on my moms side who was a fisherman and lobsterman from New England had one on the door to his tool shed/workshop because my Grandmother (who ironically was a psychopath ) despised it so much she wouldn't touch the door.

But yeah, aside from the reasons listed above I'd just add "ignorant symbol of southern pride" because a lot, if not most of the cretins who say "heritage not hatred" truly believe that, with cognitive dissonance at 100%.

[Channel72]

That would make sense if the flag de jure for US racists was not normally and overwhelmingly the U.S. flag. However that is a good test, does someone flying it a professed symbol of the South accept that in that context they have to include slavery and Jim Crow along with an agricultural tradition and say post Civil War Southern military tradition for instance.

Er... but firstly, the US flag is not anywhere near exclusively the flag de jure of US racists - it is also simply the national flag. And conversely, not all US racists are Southerners or Confederacy supporters anyway. A lot of US racists may have no connection with the Confederate flag at all - skinheads exist throughout the country, and they may choose to express their hate and racism with any number of symbols, including the swastika. A lot of US racists want total segregation, but not necessarily slavery.

Whereas, the Confederate flag is pretty much exclusively associated with the Antebellum South and its historical and cultural legacy, which again - simply does not exist apart from the slave economy it was based on.

I mean this is pretty fucking simple. People display flags because they're proud of what the flag represents. That's why you see Puerto Ricans flying the Puerto Rican flag, and Brazilian Americans flying the Brazilian flag, or Italian Americans flying the Italian flag. They're proud of the country/heritage that these flags are associated with, and want to express their enthusiasm and connection with that country/heritage. So naturally, when someone flies the Confederate flag - the message they're implicity sending is that they are proud of being associated with the Antebellum South - which is impossible to separate from the context of slavery and endlessly stubborn racism/segregation.

I'm really not sure what you're not getting about this. Yes, there are possible exceptional contexts where the display of some flag is removed from these natural assumptions (like artistic or educational contexts, video games, historical reenactments, whatever...) but that goes without saying, and nobody in this thread is arguing otherwise.

[Wild Zontargs]

If the meaning of a symbol is determined by those who use or view it, rather than being some metaphysical inherent property, the "racist flag" argument isn't going to get much more support any time soon. A majority of Americans say the Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern pride, not racism.

American public opinion on the Confederate flag remains about where it was 15 years ago, with most describing the flag as a symbol of Southern pride more than one of racism, according to a new CNN/ORC poll. And questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.

The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.

Among whites, there's a sharp divide by education, and those with more formal education are less apt to see the flag as a symbol of pride. Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism.

Efforts to remove the flag or other references to the Confederacy from public places have emerged in the weeks since nine African-American churchgoers were killed by a white man who said he was trying to start a race war in a Charleston church. But the poll shows the public is mixed on how far those efforts should go, and nearly all flag-related questions reveal broad racial divides.

A majority favors removing the Confederate flag from government property that isn't part of a museum: 55% support that while 43% are opposed. And half support private companies choosing not to sell or manufacture items featuring the Confederate flag: 50% are in favor, 47% opposed.

But most oppose other efforts, including redesigning state flags that feature Confederate emblems or symbols to remove references to the Confederacy (57% oppose that), renaming streets and highways named after Confederate leaders (68% oppose that) and removing tributes to those who fought for the Confederacy from public places (71% oppose that).

Among African-Americans, however, most favor removing flags from government property (73%), private companies stopping the sale or manufacture of products featuring the flag (65%) and redesigning state flags that feature Confederate references to remove them (59%).

And although there aren't significant age gaps in the poll overall on questions about the flag, younger African-Americans are more likely to favor some proposals than older ones.

African-Americans age 54 or younger are more likely than older African-Americans to support removing Confederate flags from government property (80% among those age 54 or younger, 63% among those age 55 or older); private companies choosing not to sell or manufacture items featuring the flag (71% among younger African-Americans vs. 54% among older ones); and redesigning state flags to remove references to the Confederacy (64% favor that among African-Americans age 54 or younger compared with 54% among older ones).

Among whites overall, not a single one of the five tested proposals has majority support. But here, too, an education divide emerges, with whites holding college degrees more apt than those without degrees to support removing confederate flags from government property (68% among those whites with degrees, 42% among those without); private companies discontinuing sale or manufacture of items featuring the flag (59% vs. 44%); and redesigning state flags to remove references to the Confederacy (49% vs. 28% among whites without college degrees).

Most Americans, black and white, do agree that the shootings in Charleston should be considered a hate crime: 92% of African-Americans and 86% of whites say it should be called a hate crime.

But there is less agreement on whether it was an act of terrorism. Overall, 41% say the shootings were terrorism. Most whites say it was not terrorism (61%), while most African-Americans say it was (55%).

The CNN/ORC poll was conducted June 26-28 among a random national sample of 1,017 adults. Additional interviews were conducted with African-Americans and combined with those reached through the initial sample of 1,017 for a total of 303 non-Hispanic black respondents. The margin of sampling error for all adults is +/- 3 percentage points, for results among blacks it is +/- 5.5 percentage points. Results among the 727 non-Hispanic whites reached in the initial sample have a margin of sampling error of +/- 3.5 percentage points.

[Metahive]

If the meaning of a symbol is determined by those who use or view it, rather than being some metaphysical inherent property,[...]

Dude, that's the exact opposite of the argument made by me, that the intent of its users doesn't matter but the very history of a symbol does. Also, what other than rampant white pride racism does "Southern Pride" represent exactly? The poll is moronic.

[Wild Zontargs]

the intent of its users doesn't matter but the very history of a symbol does

And when two different groups use the same symbol for two different purposes, do they not mean two different things? Hindu and Nazi swastikas can face the same way, but nobody would take it seriously if I said they mean the same thing. The Nazi swastika doesn't mean the same thing as the Hindu one even though the Hindu one was there first, and the Hindu one doesn't mean what the Nazi one does even though the Nazis killed more people.

This image shows swastikas painted all over a religious site. Is it hateful graffiti or symbols of devotion? Without knowing who did it and why, you can't tell. Symbols have different meanings in different contexts.

Modern Americans from the South are not universally interchangeable with the pre-war slaveowners. They are capable of having their own opinions, and giving a different meaning to the same symbol.

[Flagg]

the intent of its users doesn't matter but the very history of a symbol does

And when two different groups use the same symbol for two different purposes, do they not mean two different things? Hindu and Nazi swastikas can face the same way, but nobody would take it seriously if I said they mean the same thing. The Nazi swastika doesn't mean the same thing as the Hindu one even though the Hindu one was there first, and the Hindu one doesn't mean what the Nazi one does even though the Nazis killed more people.

This image shows swastikas painted all over a religious site. Is it hateful graffiti or symbols of devotion? Without knowing who did it and why, you can't tell. Symbols have different meanings in different contexts.

Modern Americans from the South are not universally interchangeable with the pre-war slaveowners. They are capable of having their own opinions, and giving a different meaning to the same symbol.

Yeah, and old crazy Catholic women see Jesus in toast and wood grain, what's your point? As far as what a majority of American's believe, who cares? One, fallacious argument from popularity, and two, most Americans were for the Invasions of Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Domestically just 10 years ago most were against gay marriage. So I think we've shown our overall opinion on important issues tends to be wrong, and our opinions uninformed and therefore worthless.

[Flagg]

The fact is that the confederate battle flag was born of treason and then forgotten until them uppity blacks demanded they actually be treated like human beings 100 years later when it suddenly showed up and spread like a wildfire, being placed in state flags in only Southern states where segregation was at its worst, being put on state house flagpoles, and SHOCKINGLY in prominent use at Klan rallies. It's only reasons to exist are to harken back to days when blacks were chattel as a nod and a wink between fellow travelers and to intimidate black and minority populations. It's not even comparable to the swastika which was a symbol for religions and various other things, likely since prehistory.

[Ziggy Stardust]

If the meaning of a symbol is determined by those who use or view it, rather than being some metaphysical inherent property, the "racist flag" argument isn't going to get much more support any time soon.

Did you even read that article?

Or did you miss this sentence:

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.

Your argument is equivalent to trying to argue that saying "nigger" isn't offensive just because you personally don't think it is. It's just an incredibly myopic way to understand race relations. The fact that the poll results quoted in that article are so dramatically divided along both race, education, and geographic lines shows that you can't just waive your hands and say, "nah it's not racist."

How about this part:

A majority favors removing the Confederate flag from government property that isn't part of a museum: 55% support that while 43% are opposed. And half support private companies choosing not to sell or manufacture items featuring the Confederate flag: 50% are in favor, 47% opposed.

I don't think these poll results prove what you think they do.