Yet another Germany spying scandal

[Irbis]

Remember Merkel phone? Well, turns out she was not alone:

WikiLeaks: US spied on Angela Merkel's ministers too, says German newspaper

The NSA did not just tap German chancellor Angela Merkel’s phone but also listened in on finance, economy, agriculture and other ministers

The United States did not just tap chancellor Angela Merkel’s phone but also eavesdropped on several of her ministers, the German daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung has reported, citing documents from WikiLeaks.

German-US relations were badly strained after fugitive US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden in 2013 revealed widespread US foreign surveillance, although a probe into the alleged tapping of Merkel’s mobile phone was dropped in June over a lack of evidence.

But according to the latest revelations the US National Security Agency did not limit its snooping activities to Merkel and showed particular interest in the activities of the ministries of finance, economy and agriculture, Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported.

It said WikiLeaks had shown it a list of 69 phone numbers belonging to ministers and senior officials that were reportedly targeted. The list appears to date back to between 2010 and 2012.

The current economy minister and vice-chancellor, Sigmar Gabriel, was among those spied on by the NSA, the report said, although it noted he had been in the opposition at the time.

The list also features the number of former finance minister Oskar Lafontaine, who left the job in 1999. But the number was “still active” according to Sueddeutsche Zeitung, ringing through to the secretariat of the current finance minister, Wolfgang Schaeuble.

While Snowden alleged US spying on many European governments, his disclosures triggered particular anger in Germany where bitterness lingers over mass state spying on citizens by the Stasi secret police in former communist East Germany where Merkel grew up.

Merkel herself phoned the US president, Barack Obama, over the revelations and in public told Germany’s traditional post-war ally and Nato partner that “spying between friends just isn’t on”.

Washington appeared to confirm her phone had previously been tapped when US officials said the cellphone was “no longer” a target.

So, full economic espionage going on last 16 years. Just after Merkel tried so hard to kill investigation on her own phone and spent whole G8 G7 meeting trying to convince Germans USA is cool:

[link] Germany’s attorney general, Harald Range, said he would investigate the allegations and decide whether to prosecute the NSA, according to Spiegel Online. Three weeks ago Range dropped an investigation into reports that Merkel’s own phone had been targeted by the NSA, citing a lack of evidence.

And that just after Merkel tried to join US espionage alliance or at least get assurance spying will be limited in bi-partisan agreement and was unceremoniously told 'no'. I wonder, what she will do now? Sweep it under the carpet like in previous five scandals? Or open another quickly dismissable investigation that will never find perpetrators?

[Patroklos]

How exactly do you go about prosecuting the NSA? People in the NSA sure, but spying is what the NSA does. As in its reason to exist.

[K. A. Pital]

You can break negotiations about trade pacts with the US - my preferred solution. I doubt they will like it.

[Lonestar]

Intelligence agencies spy on allied countries all the time. It baffles the hell out of me that people complain about this.

It baffles me even more that people are surprised that the IC does this. This was a sub plot for the Sum of All Fears in 1991, for cryin' out loud.

[Kane Starkiller]

Germany could break negotiations or demand that US removes its troops from Germany or even threaten to leave NATO...
or...
they could do fucking nothing because spying on foreign officials is a fact of life and every country does even as their intelligence agencies are working together like NSA,BND or DGSE. The biggest shock was the initial indignation with which German officials reacted to the news that they were *gasp* spied upon. Hopefully BND explained to them how the world works and that they need NSA more than they need BND and that Germany has much bigger fishes to fry than whether Merkel's mobi was tapped or not.

In conclusion of course it will be swept under the rug and much more quickly than the previous incident.

[K. A. Pital]

Hopefully Germany humiliates the US by responding asymmetrically. "Fact of life" my ass. Yes, it is a fact of life. Does it mean it warrants no response? Surely not. It is remarkable how the US engaged in extraordinary rendition and torture on European soil, and how this was left without a response. The US attack on European civil, environmental and labour rights in the form of TTIP has suffered some setbacks due to both popular outrage and endless spying scandals.

I hope at some point Germany gets fed up with American torturers on European soil and tells them to go fucking home, where they belong, notwithstanding the whining from countries better known as pitiful CIA torture accomplices.

Hope your rug explodes with shit that you put under it in your face at some point.

[Zaune]

Intelligence agencies spy on allied countries all the time. It baffles the hell out of me that people complain about this.

Like hell they do. Treating some high-ranking German officials to expensive consular dinners in the hope they'd be a little indiscreet would be one thing, but a major SIGINT operation like this? At best it's a gross misuse of resources and a PR disaster waiting to happen, at worst it's the kind of breach of trust that causes permanent damage to relations between countries.

If this ends with Germany selling modern air-defence systems and armoured vehicles to Iran, the Pentagon will only have themselves to blame.

[Kane Starkiller]

Hopefully Germany humiliates the US by responding asymmetrically. "Fact of life" my ass. Yes, it is a fact of life. Does it mean it warrants no response? Surely not. It is remarkable how the US engaged in extraordinary rendition and torture on European soil, and how this was left without a response. The US attack on European civil, environmental and labour rights in the form of TTIP has suffered some setbacks due to both popular outrage and endless spying scandals.

I hope at some point Germany gets fed up with American torturers on European soil and tells them to go fucking home, where they belong, notwithstanding the whining from countries better known as pitiful CIA torture accomplices.

Hope your rug explodes with shit that you put under it in your face at some point.

Plenty of ways for Germany to respond. Beef up its own security. Increase the surveillance of US targets. As the worlds' second largest exporter they probably aren't itching to scuttle a trade deal with the worlds largest importer over some eavesdropping shenanigans.
I mean it would be cool and all: Germany, France, UK and US at each other throats. Alas it will remain a fantasy

[K. A. Pital]

France did call to stop TTIP negotiations over the previous spying row. Also, the EU and national parliaments have seen rising hostility to the ISDS-laden agreement so every bit of negative publicity about the United States helps.

Yes, it would be very cool if the US would just leave Europe alone. Germany and France have nothing to gain from CIA torturers. And they are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The UK wants to leave the EU because its human rights legislation is too good for them, hinders their "counter-terrorism" crusade? They are free to get the fuck out and shut the door, nobody here needs the like of them, America's whiny little brother.

The worlds "largest" importer will no longer be such in due time: China will be twice or thrice the US economy, so why even care?

The US needs to be taught a lesson: Europe can live without their bumfuck crusaders as presidents, and without their spies, and without their lies. The sooner this lesson is taught, the better.

[Kane Starkiller]

France did call to stop TTIP negotiations over the previous spying row. Also, the EU and national parliaments have seen rising hostility to the ISDS-laden agreement so every bit of negative publicity about the United States helps.

Yes, it would be very cool if the US would just leave Europe alone. Germany and France have nothing to gain from CIA torturers. And they are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The UK wants to leave the EU because its human rights legislation is too good for them, hinders their "counter-terrorism" crusade? They are free to get the fuck out and shut the door, nobody here needs the like of them, America's whiny little brother.

The worlds "largest" importer will no longer be such in due time: China will be twice or thrice the US economy, so why even care?

The US needs to be taught a lesson: Europe can live without their bumfuck crusaders as presidents, and without their spies, and without their lies. The sooner this lesson is taught, the better.

There are forces in France and Europe in general that oppose the deal for various economic reasons other than spying. Spying incident is just an excuse to whip up nationalistic fervour not a valid reason to stop or continue with the trade deal.

US leaving us Europeans wouldn't be cool at all. It's much cooler to watch them go a second round with the Bear and pounding it into submission while we spend 1% GDP on military. A few overheard phonecalls is a small price to pay.

UK can stay too. Together with France and Germany they create a permanent Mexican standoff so that no one country rolls over the smaller European countries. They also work as a bridge in the transatlantic relationship.

How big Chinese economy will be in a few decades is something you can't know unless you have a crystal ball. In any case to say that in that case US market won't matter to Germany is your fantasy not reality.

Europe can live without your melodrama as well. Except you don't come with a huge military deterrent and trade potential.

[K. A. Pital]

Forces that oppose the deal in Europe oppose it out of humanitarian reasons (US environmental and labour standards simply suck). But since the supercorporation lobby is so strong, it makes sense to capitalize on every rift no matter how small. Spying is maybe not as huge a thing as torturing in black sites on European soil, but still it comes at a good time and I sincerely hope it will play its part in derailing the negotiations.

I understand that you are despicable, because you completely ignore that the US is not only overhearing, but was effectively kidnapping and torturing people in Eastern Europe.

The EU is a confederacy of first world nations, including two nuclear powers. There is enough weight to throw around. France has been single-handedly waging wars in Africa, surely it can do the same in the East if need be.

Europe can live without my melodrama, but unlike the US, I do not grab Arabs on the street and waterboard them, shock with electricity or rape. I guess my melodrama is not nearly as harmful as the CIA activities in Europe.

[gigabytelord]

I was under the impression that various EU countries not only knew about the torture of suspected terrorist but actually consented to and took part in such activities as well as willingly set aside sites for the CIA so it could run it's operations inside their borders. I guess it's more fun to play the blame game and act high and mighty when the shit hits the fan rather than admit that your governments are just as fucked up and racist as ours, uh?

Oh and some body call the Turks their probably laughing their asses off at the hypocrisy of this shit. Some how me thinks that they ain't to keen on trusting the German government all that much anymore. You know, what with the spying on their diplomats and stuff...

[K. A. Pital]

Yes, the European governments are weak, pathetic, they caved in when the US demanded and only very few managed to keep integrity. At least, as far as torture sites and extraordinary rendition are concerned. Does this mean they should keep this abusive relationship?

Somehow you guys are two-faced. When it comes to defending your sovereignity, it is always okay and well and good... as long as not against the USA. So nations have a right to defend themseves, act against foreign influence, and even expel foreign troops/advisors/etc., but not the US ones?

[Tanasinn]

European countries have been happy to look the other way on torture and spying too; the German government was complicit in covering up the USA spying on German citizens and only got salty when it turned out the NSA was spying on them, too. The fact is that a lot of these governments don't care about torture or spying at all as long as no mud gets on them in the process.

To make them look even more foolish, the Germans got caught months later spying on secured US/Turkish diplomatic communications.

[K. A. Pital]

I know the German government has been complicit in covering up the CIA operations in Europe; hell, even countries you'd expect integrity of, like Sweden, managed to get tarred in the process by giving out people for extraordinary rendition and subsequent torture. I know...

I just don't understand how shrugging and saying "Let's sweep this under the rug even faster" is helping. It's not, right?

[Lonestar]

Like hell they do. Treating some high-ranking German officials to expensive consular dinners in the hope they'd be a little indiscreet would be one thing, but a major SIGINT operation like this?

Yes, "like Hell they do". As mentioned in this very thread, for example, Germany has been caught conducting major SIGINT operations on allied nations in recent years.

The US is not unique in this, it's only unique in that our capabilities enable us to have a broader scope.

[stormthebeaches]

And Germany has been spying on US diplomats at the same time the US was spying on Germany. France has also been caught spying on Germany. And Isreal spying on the US. And Russia spying on the US (remember Anna Chapman). And South Korea spying on Australia. Nation's spy on each other all the time, even allied ones.