Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

[Adam Reynolds]

Too bad, I really wanted to see the Jedi pushed beyond their mundane limits.

What mundane limits? When normals face Force users without overwhelming numbers, they lose badly. Look at ESB when Han Solo has no options left when he faces Vader. Jango Fett is as good a singular combatant as one can find in the SW galaxy and he barely survives against Obi-Wan(who was trying to capture rather than kill) and dies rather quickly when facing Mace Windu.

In any case, the greatest strength of Jedi is not swinging lightsabers as much as it is their ability to influence things. Look at TPM, where Gunray would have completely folded if not for Sidious*. This is what Jedi in their prime did well, influenced events before they could spiral out of control. Combine this with at least a limited ability to see the future, and you have the greatest benevolent secret police organization one could ask for.

When not wanked to point of absurdity and treated semi-realistically Mandalorians are actually a far better match storywise to the Jedi as they work against the weaknesses of the Jedi Order (mainly the low number of Jedi) since there's most likely billions of Mandos (they're a culture with several planets under their control) while the Jedi Order has tens of thousands of members(at most) and not all of those are really combat trained. So mandos can overwhelm the Jedi, like the CIS droid army.

again problem here is trying to match (and some cases surpassing) the abilties of the Jedi without resorting to the Force, instead of thinking of inventive ways to use the weaknesses of the Jedi Order to the advantage of the story.

That is largely what was done in KOTOR with the Mandalorians, at least in backstory. Their early sucesses in the Mandalorian Wars was based upon the idea that the Jedi were impotent because the Mandalorians struck at their political weakness . Because Jedi only stuck to the limits of the Republic, the Mandalorains attacked virtually all of the non aligned worlds first as they gathered their resources. Thus when the Jedi were finally forced into the war, the Mandalorians had a rather impressive resource base.

Though the level of combat training given to Jedi seems to depend upon the era. In the prequel era(at least before the Clone Wars) Jedi seemed to take their peacekeeper role with great enthusiasm and thus cared somewhat less about their combat role. In the KOTOR era, we only really saw combat oriented Jedi. This was also mentioned in the novel Dark Lord(taking place during/after ROTS) in which one of the main Jedi was an apprentice librarian before she was forced to become a solider.

More generally I've always thought of Jedi as the ultimate special operations unit, extremely effective in small numbers but increasingly useless as one scales up. The way they were deployed on Geonosis reminds me of the failure of US Army Rangers in the Battle of Cisterna when facing German armor and superior numbers. And this could equally be said about anyone. Even Iron Man was overwhelmed by the Chitauri in The Avengers.

As for the best army to overwhelm Jedi, I've always considered droids the best approach. Besides the fact that specialized droids are capable of maneuvers that can nearly match Jedi, they also have the advantage of being impossible to mind read. While that ability is hardly perfect, it is another advantage neutralized.

Lets take Superman for example his strenght is essentially godlike, but what makes Lex Luthor work as Superman's nemesis is that Supes can't just bash him into the ground and call it a day but needs to use his brains instead.

Though unlike Superman, Jedi have the ability to both read minds and see the future. While those abilities have significant weaknesses*, it would give Jedi an easier time that Superman in such a scenario.
* I would argue that they are in fact related abilities. Thus when you are consciously predicting the future, you are often seeing what the other person is planning. Thus the weaknesses would be mostly emotional bias of the Force user and lack of planning by the opposing side.

[Lord Revan]

Lets take Superman for example his strenght is essentially godlike, but what makes Lex Luthor work as Superman's nemesis is that Supes can't just bash him into the ground and call it a day but needs to use his brains instead.

Though unlike Superman, Jedi have the ability to both read minds and see the future. While those abilities have significant weaknesses*, it would give Jedi an easier time that Superman in such a scenario.
* I would argue that they are in fact related abilities. Thus when you are consciously predicting the future, you are often seeing what the other person is planning. Thus the weaknesses would be mostly emotional bias of the Force user and lack of planning by the opposing side.

That wasn't my point though, my point was that what makes Luthor a good nemesis is that instead of matching supes in power, he abuses Superman's weaknesses thus creating a possibility for different story lines then "Superman seeks out the bad guy, superman beats up the bad guy and delivers him to the cops". The specific scenario is irrelevant but what it enables for the story isn't.

[Zixinus]

If we take this at face value then the Jedi should be capable of telekinetic feats at least equal to those of the super psychics.

Yet we never see a Jedi move things not in their eye-sight or almost never at all. I don't know the circumstances of Darksaber.

Look at the Clone Wars: moving simple objects seems to take a great deal of effort. We rarely if ever see the Jedi do things like just lifting up an enemy tank and throwing it against the enemy (I think they only ever did that with Yoda in the first episode). Or mopping the floor of robots with a large tree or boulder. They rely mostly on their lightsabers to fight.

What mundane limits?

The limits Jedi seem to have in the movies, tv series and so on. Otherwise they'd never actually face any serious threat. Otherwise they'd be the omnibenevolent, unchallengable demi-gods of the SW universe, not mere agents of the Republic.

Again, the problem is that the limits were never well-defined, which is fine when there is only one writer (Lucas and co-writers). But it's problematic for other writers, each having to guess where the limits are.

When normals face Force users without overwhelming numbers, they lose badly. Look at ESB when Han Solo has no options left when he faces Vader. Jango Fett is as good a singular combatant as one can find in the SW galaxy and he barely survives against Obi-Wan(who was trying to capture rather than kill) and dies rather quickly when facing Mace Windu.

All of those are top combatants Jedi, the most powerful in their era.

It's like saying that if Mike Tyson managed to land a KO-punch on an elite soldier, all boxers can beat the crap out of any soldiers anytime. That's obviously not how it works.

Though unlike Superman, Jedi have the ability to both read minds and see the future. While those abilities have significant weaknesses*, it would give Jedi an easier time that Superman in such a scenario.

Which is the problem: there are virtually no limits on how powerful the Force is (this is not getting into how weak and nebelous both those powers are in the films).
So instead, as a writer, the only thing you can do is define limits per-character and create averages. The Force may be unlimited powerful, but not those who can use the Force.

[Chris Parr]

The only weaknesses a Jedi should have are psychological ones. Unfortunately they seem to have a lot of them, which makes them seem kind of weak compared to characters with similar powers.

Take Charlie McGee from Stephen King's "Firestarter" for example—that kid faced down an army of Shop agents who were trying to kill her with guns and she telekinetically deflects the bullets (at least that's what it looks like in the movie) and obliterates them!

Contrast that with what we see in "Revenge of The Sith" where most of the Jedi are mowed down by their own Clone Troopers!

[Pelranius]

The only weaknesses a Jedi should have are psychological ones. U

Umm, why?

[Chris Parr]

Because, given their power and training from such an early age, the Jedi ought to be fairly close to invincible! They ought to be able to deflect blaster bolts with the Force like Darth Vader did in "The Empire Strikes Back"! The Clone Troopers sneak attack should have had no effect on them! They had plenty of time to erect a Force shield or just yank the blasters out of he Clone Troopers hands or something! Only the Sith themselves, or maybe war droids with super duper reflexes, ought to be a match for the Jedi!

Unfortunately what we see in "Revenge of The Sith" is completely different. The Jedi do put up a token defense with their lightsabers, but the Clone Troopers still mow most of the Jedi down, and those that survive run away and go into hiding! After all that hype about the power of the Force ("The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force") it makes the Jedi come across as either really weak or idiotic for not using the power that they supposedly had! At least that's how it seems to me.

[Purple]

Because, given their power and training from such an early age, the Jedi ought to be fairly close to invincible! They ought to be able to deflect blaster bolts with the Force like Darth Vader did in "The Empire Strikes Back"! The Clone Troopers sneak attack should have had no effect on them! They had plenty of time to erect a Force shield or just yank the blasters out of he Clone Troopers hands or something! Only the Sith themselves, or maybe war droids with super duper reflexes, ought to be a match for the Jedi!

I always thought that was Vader having some sort of armored suit.

Unfortunately what we see in "Revenge of The Sith" is completely different. The Jedi do put up a token defense with their lightsabers, but the Clone Troopers still mow most of the Jedi down, and those that survive run away and go into hiding! After all that hype about the power of the Force ("The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force") it makes the Jedi come across as either really weak or idiotic for not using the power that they supposedly had! At least that's how it seems to me.

Or perhaps the power of the force is not the power of the force user. Think of the force and Jedi like D&D clerics and their gods. The force is the all knowing all powerful god. Does it follow that each cleric should be all powerful as well?

[Chris Parr]

Okay, but if the Force is like a Jedi's god, shouldn't their faith in the Force make them more powerful? That's how it seems to work between gods and their followers.

Oh, and I didn't say the Jedi should be all powerful, just more powerful.

[Lord Revan]

It's complicated while Purple's Metaphor was sort of correct it's not quite that simple.

Also have you asked yourself what would making the Jedi more powerful add to the story, that's a very important question to ask.

[Chris Parr]

Well for one thing, they won't come across as idiotic weaklings!

Seriously, when a child (Charlie McGee) can outdo them in terms of sheer power, you know something is seriously wrong! They ought to have more power than that!

Indeed, just after Yoda uses the Force to move Luke's X-Wing, Luke says "I don't believe it" and Yoda answers "That is why you fail". Which just seems to go a ways toward proving my point that a Jedi's power with the Force should depend on his faith in it.

[Elheru Aran]

Yoda is a bit wacky in the head by ESB, as has been observed previously. To him, the Force is like a quasi-divine power which can be channeled by belief. In the prequel trilogy, there's considerable less mysticism about it-- the Jedi are a group of people trained to use the Force and power level is more a matter of natural/genetic inclination than belief. Luke is strong in the Force because he's got a genetic predisposition thanks to his father, not because he has any particularly great belief in it, and the only reason why he's not stronger in ESB and ROTJ is because he's barely trained. Both Palpatine and Vader recognize his potential regardless of whether he 'believes' or not.

[Batman]

Or maybe it's a combination of the two-genetics determine how much Force power you 'have', belief determines how much of it you can actually 'access'.

[Chris Parr]

Interesting, so genetics is a determining factor in one's power with the Force, eh? That raises some interesting possibilities.

Like a freak mutation creating a group of super Force wielders. Imagine "Village of The Damned" meets "Star Wars". Yeah, I know I said that the super psychic mutants aren't using the Force. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe they're tapping a different frequency or something on the same spectrum.

At any rate, if the mutants are too powerful for the Jedi maybe they have to police themselves, sort of like the immortals in the "Highlander" series.

Just a thought.

[Simon_Jester]

Well for one thing, they won't come across as idiotic weaklings!

Seriously, when a child (Charlie McGee) can outdo them in terms of sheer power, you know something is seriously wrong! They ought to have more power than that!

So... basically, the Jedi are weak because other people with supernatural/psychic powers in other settings can do more than them?

Well by that standard, Charlie McGee is a weakling because in other settings (thinking of the works of Dr. Edward Elmer Smith, off the top of my head), there are psychics who can singlehandedly sneak onto the massively fortified home planet of a bunch of aliens who all wear psionic shielding devices, and subtly infiltrate their minds until they all go crazy and kill each other with only three survivors. How's that for "strong?"

Or maybe because Neo in The Matrix can stop waves of bullets with his mind a few days after finding out reality isn't real and it's all just a program, instead of needing whole years to hone his abilities like a child would. How's that for "fast maturity?"

I mean come on, this is ridiculous. Different stories tell the stories of different individuals doing different things with different methods. Some of them give those individuals massive, godlike powers (e.g. Superman). Others give them exceptional powers that are, shall we say, 'wizardlike,' but not godlike (e.g. Star Wars). Still others give these individuals no special superhuman powers at all (e.g. Robinson Crusoe).

It's sheer foolishness for you to claim that people in one fictional setting are 'weak' and should be made to look more powerful, simply because they do not perform the kind of massive feats that someone in another setting does. Would Robinson Crusoe be a better story if you gave him the powers of Superman?

Indeed, just after Yoda uses the Force to move Luke's X-Wing, Luke says "I don't believe it" and Yoda answers "That is why you fail". Which just seems to go a ways toward proving my point that a Jedi's power with the Force should depend on his faith in it.

It does not, however, prove your unsupported assertion that the Jedi should have virtually unlimited power

Interesting, so genetics is a determining factor in one's power with the Force, eh? That raises some interesting possibilities.

The entire plot of all six movies revolves around the rise to prominence of a single Force user. Who happens to be uniquely powerful. And then around his two children (separated from him at birth and raised to adulthood by ordinary people) who turn out to be the only people in the galaxy capable of stopping him and the Sith Lord who corrupted him...

So yes. Force ability is tied heavily to genetics. Duh.

Like a freak mutation creating a group of super Force wielders. Imagine "Village of The Damned" meets "Star Wars". Yeah, I know I said that the super psychic mutants aren't using the Force. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe they're tapping a different frequency or something on the same spectrum.

...The Force shows no signs of having a spectrum. It has Light and Dark aspects but there is no sane reason why it should have a 'spectrum.'

At any rate, if the mutants are too powerful for the Jedi maybe they have to police themselves, sort of like the immortals in the "Highlander" series.

Just a thought.

Virtually the entire plot of Star Wars, including most of the prominent bits of the extended universe, is about the Jedi policing themselves, about good Force users battling evil Force users, about Jedi falling to evil and becoming a threat, about Sith redeeming themselves and bringing good to the galaxy, and all the rest.

So basically, George Lucas is waaaay ahead of you here; he had this figured out in 1977.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Or maybe it's a combination of the two-genetics determine how much Force power you 'have', belief determines how much of it you can actually 'access'.

I would argue that it's more confidence than belief. Whenever I watch ESB, I get the impression that Luke doesn't believe the Force can't do it, he believes he can't do it. Hence he fails. He's already seen and used the Force in impressive ways, like blocking the training blaster bolts while blindfolded, or making that nigh-impossible torpedo shot. He just doesn't think he himself can do that.

Anyway, it clearly isn't purely genetics, there is something else in play. But self-confidence would, I think, be a vital part in honing their Force abilities, and it also neatly ties in with why both the Jedi and Sith fail during the six films. Confidence leads to over-confidence which leads to arrogance and pride which gets you killed (for the Jedi), for the Sith it also leads to arrogance. They get beaten by someone confident enough to win but not arrogant enough to fail.

[Batman]

I'd argue the two are intertwined-how can you believe you can do something if you aren't confident you can do it?

[Purple]

I'd argue the two are intertwined-how can you believe you can do something if you aren't confident you can do it?

"Do, or do not. There is no try." Or something like that. I can't get the exact quote right now. But maybe there is a clue in it toward the approach Yoda took toward using the force. What if you do not need confidence or belief in your ability to do something with the force but just to not restrict your self by doubting. If you can do it (as in it is within your capabilities as a force user) than it will work, if not than it won't. But it's not about belief as much as approaching it with an open mind.

[Chris Parr]

Never mind, this was a terrible idea in the first place.

[Chris Parr]

Oh, and by the way, in the Jedi Academy trilogy, Kyp Durron uses the Force to summon the Sun Crusher from the heart of the gas giant Yavin around which Yavin Four orbits while standing on the jungle moon. So that shows that a Jedi can move things telekinetically even when they're not in his line of sight.

[Batman]

In Darksaber Jedi throw a a damned SSD 'out of the system' so not only do we know they can do it without line of sight, they can do it 'FTL'. We somehow never see that done in the movies or TCW.

[Chris Parr]

See? The potential for godlike Jedi power is there.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Except that was 15-20 Jedi combining their powers with the innate Force presence of the Massassi temples. And it wasn't an SSD, it was ~17 ISDs. It's still a stunning feat of power, but it isn't one Jedi going all Godlike on the galaxy.

Oh, and the Kyp Durron example also isn't an example you could normally use, as he was possessed by the spirit of a very powerful dead Sith Lord, so again, not representative of "normal" or even "powerful" Jedi.

[Chris Parr]

So what are you saying? That a Sith is more powerful than the Jedi? I thought the powers of the light side and the dark side of the Force were roughly equal, with the dark side being easier and more seductive. Anyway, wasn't this Sith Lord finally destroyed? So if the godlike spirit of this Sith Lord could be destroyed by a bunch of Jedi, doesn't that show the potential power of the Jedi is much greater than what we normally see?

And he wasn't possessed, just influenced. If Kyp had been possessed, he would have killed Luke Skywalker like Exar Kun wanted instead of flying off on his own to take revenge on the Empire.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I'm saying that in this case one ancient, powerful and very well-trained Sith Lord was more powerful than a group of half-trained Jedi. You can't just take one example and extrapolate from there. The plural of anecdote is not data after all.

You are also forgetting the part about him (and the Jedi) tapping into the natural powerful Force presence of those temples and that planet. That's kinda an important detail.

And yeah, Durron was possessed, he uses the term himself when he describes it later.

[Lord Revan]

We should also remember that alot if not all of the higher end feats done by Force users tend to involve special events that cannot be replicated by just anyone either due to the people involved or the circumstances involved.

For example there were/are Sith Artifacts that can boost the user's ability to use the Force but those were extremly rare when during the time they were made, during "modern" time (aka Clone Wars to post ROTJ) those things don't exist for all intents and purposes (yes technically there's still some around but it's big Galaxy with alot of places to hide/loose such things).