Quite Possibly The Worst Star Wars Story Idea Ever

[Joun_Lord]

Interesting, so genetics is a determining factor in one's power with the Force, eh? That raises some interesting possibilities.

Like a freak mutation creating a group of super Force wielders. Imagine "Village of The Damned" meets "Star Wars". Yeah, I know I said that the super psychic mutants aren't using the Force. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe they're tapping a different frequency or something on the same spectrum.

Part of using the force is training. Take for instance Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful force user in canon. With training he's a badass and can do super duper stuff. Without training.....he's got good reflexes. Darth Bane, one of the more powerful Sith Lords, when he was just a soldier he was an exceptional soldier and could even do a bit of a bullet time thing but couldn't call down the power of the force. Darth Reven in KOTOR was uber-powerful but was just an above average guy when he got his memory erased until.....wait for it.....he got trained again.

Even if there was a village of super Force people, they'd just be a village of people with really good reflexes and maybe the occasional premonition and a dysentery problem but thats probably unrelated to force powers. It'd be like the village of white space elves in Star Trek Insurrection, assholes who can maybe slow down their perception of time in a crisis and be real massive cunts, also force grandma to plow the fields because if you create a machine to do the work of a man, you take something away from the man like backbreaking labor.

It doesn't really matter how powerful someones force potential is unless they got training. It would be like if I had the potential to be a world class pianist, had the long choking fingers and the rhythm and everything. That doesn't mean I can just sit down at a piano and tap out Le nozze di Figaro like the best of them. I'd need training, I'd need to practice, I'd need to build upon the knowledge and talents of others, also a piano.

The super powerful Sith Lords like Exar Kun were powerful not only because of their potential but because they had training and knowledge from millennia of Sith before them plus a unhealthy amount of Sith artifacts imbued with power. Exar Kun himself was powerful enough to survive in spirit for many thousands of years after his death but again that was not just because of his innate power but because he had techniques take from other Sith, training received from the Sith, and access to force strong temples.

Take all that away and he'd just be some guy who wouldn't be much more powerful then a normal guy if at all.

[Zixinus]

Because, given their power and training from such an early age, the Jedi ought to be fairly close to invincible! They ought to be able to deflect blaster bolts with the Force like Darth Vader did in "The Empire Strikes Back"! The Clone Troopers sneak attack should have had no effect on them! They had plenty of time to erect a Force shield or just yank the blasters out of he Clone Troopers hands or something! Only the Sith themselves, or maybe war droids with super duper reflexes, ought to be a match for the Jedi!

Let me get this straight, you are complaining that Jedi are not wanked out to near-invulnerability?

Because that's an essential part of the Star Wars: Jedi are highly capable but not god-like. Also, keep in mind what I am constantly repeating: there are no properly-defined rules to how powerful one can be with the Force, so every writer guessed. What the Force is capable of and what you can do with it changes with every writer (even when involving the same character like Luke Skywalker) and even changes in which decade the novel was written. Earlier works tend to low-ball it while you have later works like Force Unleashed that go as high as Lucasfilm allowed.

[Chris Parr]

Well it looks like I was wrong. Jedi and Sith can't tap a near infinite amount of the Force.

I just remembered a few examples of Force wielders overloading their power. Palpatine needed a host of clone bodies in "Dark Empire" because he kept burning them up using the dark side. Gantortis was burned to death in the "Jedi Academy" trilogy when he tapped too much of dark side, and finally in "Darksaber" Dorsk 81,the Jedi through whom all the other Jedi were focusing their power to knock those Star Destroyers out of the Yavin System was burned up by the excessive energies.

So again, no godlike Jedi, and no possibility of godlike Jedi.

[Lord Revan]

Not in the way you're thinking no.

As I said before characters that (near) godlike in powers are really hard to write good stories with as unless the writer is really good there's always the question of "why didn't he do this!" when faced with story obstacle or the alternative is that there's no tension in the story cause what ever is thrown at character he can beat it.

Your failure isn't that you didn't understand Jedi power levels correct, no your failure was alot more fundamental, essentially you forgot that "MOAR POWAH!" doesn't make a better story or that stories need to consider only their own internal logic and power levels not how they fare against other stories.

[Chris Parr]

All right.

[Chris Parr]

Although I disagree with you that someone who suddenly gains godlike power can't be interesting. Oh sure, if it's just about that person going against an army, that's about as interesting as swatting a fly. The really interesting bit, at least to me, is how he deals with absolute power. What does one do when the rules of normal society no longer apply? Can one remain a decent and moral person when there is no fear of punishment to hold him back?

See, that struggle to hold onto one's morality, or the slow descent into madness make a character like that very interesting indeed. Just look at the "Dark Phoenix" saga from the X-Men. No, I'm not comparing "Star Wars" to "X-Men", just giving an example of how a story featuring an all powerful character can be interesting.

[Chris Parr]

And yes, I am aware that Star Wars has already done this kind of story.

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, and by the way, in the Jedi Academy trilogy, Kyp Durron uses the Force to summon the Sun Crusher from the heart of the gas giant Yavin around which Yavin Four orbits while standing on the jungle moon. So that shows that a Jedi can move things telekinetically even when they're not in his line of sight.

One, least relevant: this is no longer canon anyway, so who cares.

Two, more relevant, my strong impression is that telekinetic manipulation of starships and such is usually seen in... rather lower quality... EU material. In other words, the support for your position is coming from the trashier parts of the EU, which in turn makes it somewhat of a trashy proposition. Certainly we see no evidence that Jedi can do this in numerous other stories where it would be highly convenient for them to do so.

Although I disagree with you that someone who suddenly gains godlike power can't be interesting. Oh sure, if it's just about that person going against an army, that's about as interesting as swatting a fly. The really interesting bit, at least to me, is how he deals with absolute power. What does one do when the rules of normal society no longer apply? Can one remain a decent and moral person when there is no fear of punishment to hold him back?

See, that struggle to hold onto one's morality, or the slow descent into madness make a character like that very interesting indeed. Just look at the "Dark Phoenix" saga from the X-Men. No, I'm not comparing "Star Wars" to "X-Men", just giving an example of how a story featuring an all powerful character can be interesting.

That can be an interesting kind of story, but it's not the only kind of story.

As with my earlier example... Robinson Crusoe is an interesting story. A veritable classic of literature. It doesn't become more interesting if you suddenly give Crusoe the powers of Superman.

If anything, it becomes a lot less interesting. Because the obvious outcome there is that Crusoe goes 'up up and away!' and simply flies home and ends the story preemptively. If that doesn't happen, suppose Crusoe continues to live within the basic premise of a castaway stranded on a tropical island. And now you have to come up with exotic bullshit justifications for why he doesn't use his Superman powers to solve all his problems!

Moreover, the "omnipotent character struggles with their moral code" story is one of the hardest of all story types to write convincingly. Because it hinges on creating a character who is very sympathetic to the reader, despite having no problems or limitations the reader would recognize.

Get this even slightly wrong, and all the moral dilemmas you set up for your character will seem stupid and contrived. People will go "Mary Sue!" and be right to do so.

Moreover, most of the normal literary devices that are used to make stories compelling become useless, because Our Heroine can just power through them by brute force. This is especially true in settings where "UNLIMITED POWAAAH" includes the ability to manipulate people's minds.

[Elheru Aran]

Minor detail: Dorsk 81 and the Jedi apprentices on Yavin didn't toss a Super Star Destroyer out of the system, it was a small flotilla of Star Destroyers commanded by Pellaeon. Daala was fashionably late and didn't encounter the same task because the apprentices had already worn themselves out and burnt Dorsk 81 to a cinder.

[Chris Parr]

What's wrong with Mary Sue? She can be a fun and compelling character if done right.

Let's see, there was Susan La Muse from the La Muse graphic novel, Alan Moore's Supreme and Suprema, Herbie Popnecker, Wiccan and Hulkling from Young Avengers, oh and let's not forget Luke Skywalker himself. All blatant Mary Sues or Marty Stus.

Yes, Robinson Crusoe is a compelling story, and it's been copied a couple of times (Gilligan's Island and Castaway) and I can understand that making him into some kind of Superman would wreck the story.

[Elheru Aran]

Technically, a Mary Sue tends to never go wrong or have anything bad set them back. Luke has to struggle to get to where he is at the end of Return of the Jedi and deal with some real shit.

Mary Sue's are, to put it fairly simplistically, lazy writing.

[Zixinus]

You could make it a Star Wars story if you could manage to figure out one thing: how are these guys able to do what they do without training?

Let's assume that the drug causes genes to be triggered that activate force sensitivity big-time and the Force is disturbed the large number of deaths these people are around, thus they are able to use that. How do they know how to use it? In all cases of incredible Force feats we know of, both Canon and EU, require guidance and training of a master.

So, OK, you are one of the lucky few that drew the biological lottery and you can use the Force in a supercharged, strange way. How the hell do you know how to use it?

Because in both the Jedi and Sith tradition you have literally thousands of years of accumulated knowledge to draw on and get you to learn by leaps and bounds what otherwise could require generations of lifetimes to figure out.

So, what's your answer? Does a Sith/Jedi spirit show up and offer to teach them? Does an actual Jedi/Sith show up and the psychics take his/her knowledge from their mind and then share? They have the Force itself teach it to them somehow? Or are they so powerful that they can easily figure out stuff?


And let me offer you a principle weakness for your supercharged psychics: they can't leave the planet because they need the drug to live at all. Without the drug they'll die instantly. That's it. All their powers remain in place and they may learn quickly about this weakness.

What's wrong with Mary Sue? She can be a fun and compelling character if done right.

If you have a need to understand this question than you have not encountered a true Mary Sue. A Mary Sue is not simply an author self-insert with some fantastical abilities/attributes/insights/characteristics/items/etc. If that were the case you'd gutted a massive part of all literature.

No, a Mary Sue is a self-insert that exists only for the author to masturbate/exalt to himself and his own ego. In a proper story the author will create some sort of relationship with how you and how you perceive their characters, good writers able to write characters that you can empathize with or otherwise understand. A Mary Sue is perfection itself, is inherently awesome and everything they do is awesome and anyone who can't see that is evil, blind or an idiot and so on.

Luke Skywalker is arguable somewhat of a self-insert but hardly a Mary Sue. The most Mary Sue moment is when the Rebels just give him not only a starfighter but a rank within a squadron. I'm sure that there is some cut part or something about how the hell is that supposed to have happened.

But he isn't universally liked by everyone at first (although he is a rather inoffensive farm-boy), he isn't fantastically powerful for no reason (he has potential that he has to train and earn his power), there is an entire movie dedicated to his nemesis kicking his ass and having hardships. He even makes mistakes, a big one that costs him (even temporarily) one of his hands. He has arguably only one love interest that goes for another.

[Elheru Aran]

Luke Skywalker is arguable somewhat of a self-insert but hardly a Mary Sue. The most Mary Sue moment is when the Rebels just give him not only a starfighter but a rank within a squadron. I'm sure that there is some cut part or something about how the hell is that supposed to have happened.

If you're talking about him becoming 'Commander Skywalker' by ESB, there's like... two and a half, three years between the end of ANH and start of ESB. A bit fast, but the Rebellion tends to have quick promotions due to attrition. I don't recall him having any particular rank in ANH; they mostly just stuck him into a X-wing because they needed every qualified pilot they could get their hands on, and the semi-official explanation is that he took a few hours in a simulator to qualify.

[Zixinus]

If you're talking about him becoming 'Commander Skywalker' by ESB, there's like... two and a half, three years between the end of ANH and start of ESB. A bit fast, but the Rebellion tends to have quick promotions due to attrition. I don't recall him having any particular rank in ANH; they mostly just stuck him into a X-wing because they needed every qualified pilot they could get their hands on, and the semi-official explanation is that he took a few hours in a simulator to qualify.

Talking about ANH. He got a rank because he was Red Five and there were pilots higher than him (Red Nine at least). I'm not sure but I think he even issued orders?

[Chris Parr]

Okay, although I don't really see the need to create physical weaknesses for these psychics, or maybe it should just be one lone psychic. Not when psychological weaknesses will work just as well.

Just look at the Superman character in "Man of Steel". Physically he was invincible, since there was no Kryptonite in that movie, but those very powers made him a misfit and social outcast. That made him a relatable character because, hey, we've all felt socially awkward at one time or another. If you say you haven't, you're lying.

That's how I'd see these super psychics, forever apart from normal society.

Oh, and as for how they learn their powers—well, telepathy they'd pick up right off, since they would have felt the deaths of all those people.

As for other powers like telekinesis, someone might accidently discover how to do it, and that knowledge instantly spreads throughout the super psychic community.

Although, come to think of it, it might better better if there was just one survivor—that way his psychological and social difficulties become more of an obstacle. Also he may just be a quick study, able to pick up on skills or learn new ones with relative ease. That may be part of his telepathy.

Huh, seems like we're getting into Mary Sue territory.

So anyway, like I said this super duper Force using mutant, while he can easily handle any physical obstacle you throw at him, would still have several psychological and social problems caused by the very thing that makes him so powerful in the first place. And therein lies the relatability of the character, at least to me.

[Lord Revan]

If you're talking about him becoming 'Commander Skywalker' by ESB, there's like... two and a half, three years between the end of ANH and start of ESB. A bit fast, but the Rebellion tends to have quick promotions due to attrition. I don't recall him having any particular rank in ANH; they mostly just stuck him into a X-wing because they needed every qualified pilot they could get their hands on, and the semi-official explanation is that he took a few hours in a simulator to qualify.

Talking about ANH. He got a rank because he was Red Five and there were pilots higher than him (Red Nine at least). I'm not sure but I think he even issued orders?

he did but only after Red squad had been essentially reduced to Luke, Wedge and Biggs, as Luke as designed the leader of that element by Red Leader before his death.

[Chris Parr]

Another way might learn to use his powers is by discovering a lost Holocron.

[Zixinus]

Huh, seems like we're getting into Mary Sue territory.

So anyway, like I said this super duper Force using mutant, while he can easily handle any physical obstacle you throw at him, would still have several psychological and social problems caused by the very thing that makes him so powerful in the first place. And therein lies the relatability of the character, at least to me.

But those qualities actually ruin him of being a Mary Sue. And that's a good thing!

You need to read up what a Mary Sue IS, because you are clearly confused by the term. Being a self-insert in a story is not Mary Sue. Being a self-insert that is somewhat awesome and powerful in the story is not a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue is best comparable to Jesus without having to do the will of God or any hardships: perfection in being and character, as the author imagines it and you should bow down and worship it. If you want your characters to feel empathy for your character's problems, hardships and so on then you are not writing a Mary Sue. You are writing a Mary Sue that is perfect in every aspect of character and you demand the readers to acknowledge it and worship your character for it!

Bella and Edward from the Twilight series? They both arguably qualify. Especially Edward who is masculine perfection and a vampire without any of the horrible things or weaknesses that is supposed to have!

Another way might learn to use his powers is by discovering a lost Holocron.

That's a good explanation, although it would take time. Then again, since the entire planet has become depopulated your pyshic has time and resources (just steal them from the dead) to devote himself to studying it.

[Lord Revan]

Well technically a Mary Sue character can face "problems" but those must be token and not really true obstacles, hardships or set-backs, Like not finding an outfit that exactly the right shade in post apocaplytic world, sure it would be nice if the outfit was the right shade but most people have bigger issues to deal with.

Good example of a Mary Sue (well Marty Sue) character is early seasons Wesley Crusher from TNG not only was this 14 year old Kid better at knowing how the ship worked then the trained Starfleet crew, he was that in way that made you wonder what point was there for the rest of the characters at all.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually, the question of them not having any training might be an effective way of allowing ordinary Jedi to combat them on even terms. Sure, the mutants might be far more powerful, but they'll be using that in an instinctive, inefficient way. Possibly exhausting them faster than their less-powerful but better-trained foes. Or they'd be using their power as a clumsy bludgeoning tool while fighting trained guys with fine sabres. Yes, one hit from the slow massive hammer will fuck them up, but getting that one hit against a trained adversary will be difficult.

[SilverDragonRed]

Everyone who has talked about Mary Sues so far is correct in describing tell-tell signs of spotting one, but are wrong in getting to the heart of the issue when it comes to them.

Mary Sue- A character or organization who warps the story (either narratively or morally) to be presented in the best possible light. Usually done to the detriment of others (or all).

[Simon_Jester]

What's wrong with Mary Sue? She can be a fun and compelling character if done right.

No, they cannot. "Mary Sue" is used very explicitly to refer to non-fun, non-compelling characters. Characters who have no interesting vices or flaws, and whose only real virtue is that they are powerful. While "this character is powerful" may be enough to make immature or easily pleased readers like the character, it is NOT enough to make a good character.

Yes, Robinson Crusoe is a compelling story, and it's been copied a couple of times (Gilligan's Island and Castaway) and I can understand that making him into some kind of Superman would wreck the story.

Yes, but the point is not specific to just that one story. There's a broader point, and I'd appreciate it if you'd take some time to think about it, because I'm taking a considerable amount of time to figure out how to explain it.

The point is that in many stories, indeed almost ALL stories, are about the main characters' limitations and the obstacles they face. They are about how the character overcomes those limitations through persistence, cleverness, personal honor, or other positive traits. Or, alternatively, the story can be about how the protagonist may fail. Then they get hit with the consequences of failure, such as humiliation, poverty, injury, or isolation.

If you give the protagonist all the power, or the rewards, or an easy way of getting those rewards, at the beginning... then you haven't really told a story.

Think about coming-of-age stories. Stories in which Our Protagonist is trying to grow up, master their potential, and accomplish important tasks to stake out a place in the world. Such a story will become WORSE if you just randomly hand the protagonist all the powers and status. They're supposed to have to grow in order to earn them; that's the point of the story.

Romance novels where Our Protagonist is trying to win the affection of the person they love become worse when the protagonist is made sexually irresistible so that the object of their desire just falls into their lap. People don't read those stories just so they can have the ending sentence be "and then they kissed and lived happily ever after." at the end, they want a logical story that flows smoothly from the beginning to the end, in which the protagonist earns their happiness by successfully courting the person they desire.

War stories where Our Protagonist just happens to be a bulletproof supersoldier aren't compelling, because we know the protagonist will automatically win and isn't really in any danger. If you do somehow make such a story compelling, it's usually by introducing some other entirely different class of conflict the protagonist CAN lose.

The point here is that "Mary Sue" characters are defined precisely by their inability to lose, and are invariably dull and annoying for that reason. You may find a handful of people who like them, but never more than that- and the ones who like them are often dull-witted, easily impressed, or immature people. Not the people whose judgment you want to rely on.

...

So anyway. The result of this is that making characters 'more powerful' within the context of a story doesn't make them more interesting. Jedi who can use telekinesis to bend spaceships into pretzels aren't really more interesting than Jedi who struggle to pull their lightsaber out of a snowbank. Indeed, they're usually less interesting. Because the element of "wow, that's magical!" is there either way, and the Jedi struggling to get his lightsaber out of the snow is probably facing a more serious, more compelling challenge.

If you're talking about him becoming 'Commander Skywalker' by ESB, there's like... two and a half, three years between the end of ANH and start of ESB. A bit fast, but the Rebellion tends to have quick promotions due to attrition. I don't recall him having any particular rank in ANH; they mostly just stuck him into a X-wing because they needed every qualified pilot they could get their hands on, and the semi-official explanation is that he took a few hours in a simulator to qualify.

Talking about ANH. He got a rank because he was Red Five and there were pilots higher than him (Red Nine at least). I'm not sure but I think he even issued orders?

Eh. In a combat situation where people are taking heavy casualties and there's an urgent, dangerous goal to accomplish, rank structure becomes fluid, and authority tends to flow to the people who are taking decisive, effective action.

If Red Five is a rookie pilot who just happens to save his friends' life, blow big holes in the enemy defenses, and has the guts to volunteer to be the lead fighter carrying torpedoes in an attack run, then when Red Five shouts "cover me!" it's likely other pilots will obey. They might never think of obeying his orders on the ground, might even grow angry or violent if he tried to issue them orders... but they'll follow his initiative when it's a matter of life and death and he's clearly doing well in combat.

No surprise there, given how soldiers actually behave in a fight.

Good example of a Mary Sue (well Marty Sue) character is early seasons Wesley Crusher from TNG not only was this 14 year old Kid better at knowing how the ship worked then the trained Starfleet crew, he was that in way that made you wonder what point was there for the rest of the characters at all.

Having viewed the episodes in question (Wesley's early appearances in Seasons 1 and 2) recently, I think that's being a bit unfair. Wesley shows some flights of genius technical insight, but at the same time, he also makes some rather costly mistakes due to inexperience or overconfidence. He gets reined in by his mother and by Picard, and it's pretty clear to an adult viewer that they are often right to do so.

His hypercompetence may be subject to valid criticism, but he's not being portrayed as the only one who ever does anything right, or the only one who understands the ship, and he's not the one most likely to be right about a given situation.

When he comes back to the show later, he's got training

[Chris Parr]

Did I mention the social and psychological difficulties this mutant has to face?

As far as quests go, his is a simple one. See, he lost everything in that Cataclysm—his family and friends are gone. Moreover, he's a monster now. Not exactly ugly but very creepy looking. All he wants is to be accepted for who he is, and he won't use his telepathic powers to force anyone either, because to him that's just not real.

So he has to do it the hard way, EARNING the acceptance that he craves.

So you see, even though he can easily deflect blaster bolts he is still vulnerable to scorn. People don't just fall at his feet—in fact, they see him as a freak, and he can feel their fear, their loathing and their pity and it hurts. It hurts bad. It will be difficult to turn all of that into grudging acceptance, and he may fail to win every heart, but he will persevere.

Okay, okay you can put your hankies away now.

Anyway, the point is this mutant is facing challenges and trying to overcome them. Not physical challenges, no, but like I said before I believe that the psychological and social challenges can be just as tough to overcome, and therefor can make the character just as engaging. The fact that you don't seem to like him because he's too powerful just proves my point. You're just like all the trillions of beings across the galaxy—seeing only a monster and not the hurt and lonely soul underneath.

[Lord Revan]

the thing is once you get past a certain relative power level the opinions of the "peons" start to become irrelevant, after all what does it matter what others truly think when you rip them to shreds with a thought if they so much as dream of expressing anything but utter adaration towards you.

It's not that we hate really powerful characters, in fact I've been working slowly on character that's essentially an immortal demi-god but the point here is that I'm very about how to use that character and know the limits of the style of characters (or at least I hope I know).

[Zixinus]

The thing is that the more potentially valuable you are the more people are willing to forgive "minor" things like being awkward, a bit crazy, prone to mood shifts, etc. People are willing to honestly put up with it if the person is sufficiently useful. A psychic that is order of magnitudes more powerful than a Jedi but is otherwise a normal person is probably one of the most valuable people in the SW universe, especially if they can beat the Jedi at will. This is more dangerous than the Death Star.

The thing is, that psychological weakness is one thing that would play to the Jedi's strengths: one of what appears to be fundamental aspects of being a Jedi is spiritual cleanliness and purity of purpose.