Greek debt crisis [update: 3rd Bailout deal reached]

[bobalot]

You can almost feel the smugness of the EuroTards like Thanas in this thread. Their dicks gone hard with the idea of punishing and humiliating Greece but blind to the obvious truth to outsiders that this course of action will destroy any possibility of a political / fiscal union and therefore consigning the Euro to inevitable failure.

I can't wait for the day that Germany will return to having it's own currency, which will rocket in value, and make their exports drop and bring a whole host of problems that German avoids by having a weak EU and captive uncompetitive Southern export markets. Finally, the rest of us no longer have to listen to their self-serving bullshit.

So, basically your dick would go hard with the idea of punishing and humiliating Germany.

Of course, the complete destruction of a nation's economy to depression like levels for at least a decade (in order to achieve surpluses and debt repayments that are mathematically impossible according to the IMF and many economists) and complete crushing of their sovereignty is on par with wanting the German export model to no longer exploit an undervalued currency.

Yep, great counter, bro.

[LaCroix]

I think it is funny that people keep blaming Germany, even though this current plan is what the Greek government offered, and 'worse' than what had been demanded two weeks ago. And the ones arguing for being stricter with Greece are primarily the Eastern EU members who feel being robbed - Germany is actually a moderating force in the negotiations.

[Simon_Jester]

Even if it's not a private bank, this still boils down to the German finance minister demanding that the Greeks give him personally control of all their money.

To be fair, his track record with managing money has been far superior than any recent Greek finance minister. All sarcasm aside, how is this any different from the situation that will now happen, which is that the fund will be subject to European control...so Schäuble still sits at the table.

The difficulty then raised is, well.

Since I'm not sure you've been reading the previous posts that pointed this out, I will repeat:

There is good reason to think the Greek debt is already impossible for Greece to repay, even if Greece reforms its economy, for a variety of reasons. Even the IMF itself has thought so for some time.

If you know that a country is unable to repay its debts, there is no logical reason to loan it further money without enacting debt forgiveness.

By analogy- If I loan aerius money, and for whatever reason he can't pay it back no matter what he does, I would be a fool to respond by loaning him more money "to get back on his feet." I would be even more of a fool to waste my time by volunteering to manage his finances, when literally nothing will result in his finances turning around and me getting my money back.

The only reason I would volunteer to do that is if my intention is to use my position of financial power for personal gain. To engage in asset-stripping or other unethical actions. Or at the very least to 'legally' extract large fees from a person who is already in a bad financial situation.

Then and only then do I have any real chance of profiting from going to the trouble of exercising control over his disastrous finances.

So it is reasonable, if you are a de facto bankrupt person with no ability to repay your debts, to think "this person's generous offer to take control of my finances to help me fix things... sounds suspicious. I don't trust them and don't want to put them in charge."

Similar logic may apply to bankrupt countries.

...

Now, the bailout will temporarily ease Greece's problems, while a Greek exit from the Eurozone would temporarily worsen those problems. This may explain Tsipras' actions.

But even so, he has every reason NOT to trust Greece's foreign creditors with "control of Greek finances" during the crisis. And every reason to think that this control will be used to plunder Greece. And every reason to oppose this control, and to limit the degree of foreign control.

Giving the KfW control over this was most probably the best solution because they got a decent track record of rebuilding economies - the German one from the 40s-50s and the East German economy from 1990s. It probably is the institution one should put in charge of rebuilding ones economy. There is no equivalent institution with that kind of experience and track record. And unlike the Greek agencies, they do not have a reputation for being corrupt.

Indeed, I do not doubt that the KfW is a faithful and honorable German public institution. I am quite sure that putting the KfW in control of Greek finances will result in the KfW faithfully and honorably doing what is best... for Germany.

This isn't a condemnation of Germans as such, either. Putting in another organization like the KfW, controlled by any other set of nations, will likewise result in the new organization doing what is best for that other set of nations.

No foreign agency be fully credible in promising to repair the Greek economy... at a time when the country or countries that agency comes from are large creditors every who have reason to strip Greece of assets and auction them off to foreign owners.

What I want to know is... what's preventing a simple deal of debt forgiveness and debt payments being deferred in exchange for definite Greek tax reforms?

Because the last time there was a debt forgiveness deal in exchange for reforms, the greek gov took the debt forgiveness and did none of the reforms they agreed to. Most of what is demanded now is something they agreed to earlier as well. The fear in most European nations is that they will simply take the money and run - again. That is why there are such strict demands for "implement before we give you anything".

This would be sensible except that even if the Greeks carry out the reforms, they will not gain the ability to repay the debt. Therefore, the debts might as well be forgiven, because they will never be repaid in any event.

There are two possible goals: to repair Greece, and to get the money back.

1) If the goal is to repair Greece, forgiving the debt will vastly simplify the problem of carrying out repairs, because a sum of money equal to 3% of the Greek GDP will suddenly be available to invest in the repair process. Imagine all that money, or even a fraction of it, being used to fund anti-corruption investigations.

If the fear is that the Greeks will take the forgiveness and not repair themselves... simply refuse to loan them more money for any reason. That is all that will be necessary- stop trying to fix a thing that will not fix itself. Granted that the attempt to repair Greece will then fail, but it would have failed anyway, so you would lose nothing.

2) If the goal is to get the money back, then the goal is doomed no matter what happens, and only a fool would knowingly pursue such a pointless goal... Unless, of course, the real plan is to strip Greece of assets. Which is the exact opposite of the stated objective of "repairing Greece," and in which case it honestly doesn't matter whether the Greeks reform their legal system or not. An honest man is no easier to rob at gunpoint than a corrupt and sleazy man is.

So I conclude that if the goal is to repair Greece, there is no reason to make the Greeks reform before forgiving the debts.

If the goal is to get the money back, then there is no reason to make the Greeks reform at all. And demands that the Greeks reform are a pure exercise in window-dressing to make the public support the plan to strip Greece of assets.

[FTeik]

Well let's see, Greece was running a budget surplus if the debt interest payments are subtracted out. Default on all the debts and that money can now be put to use and invested into improving the nation. You don't need any drastic reforms, because the system, imperfect as it is was working well enough to keep Greece going were it not for the EU leeching off it.

And of course they came to their debt by accident, so the entire mess is completely not of their own making.

And putting the money saved through a default to use and investing into improving the nation seems delusional, considering the state Greece has been and is currently in. BTW, there is the prospect for a restructure of the debt at the later date, if the creditors can see, that the Greeks honour the agreement this time. Of course they can still back out of the negotiations, default and leave the Euro-zone, but I wonder, if there would still be people cheering them on six months later, if they do that.

[Crown]

I think it is funny that people keep blaming Germany, even though this current plan is what the Greek government offered, and 'worse' than what had been demanded two weeks ago. And the ones arguing for being stricter with Greece are primarily the Eastern EU members who feel being robbed - Germany is actually a moderating force in the negotiations.

The fuck? Germany is the pack leader, and worse it's a country that 'claims' to know what it is doing and yet has repeatedly, consistently insists on goals that cannot be met and when they aren't they old 'they didn't try hard enough meme' gets trotted out.

Let me help you;

Code: Select all

Greek Economy        Greek Debt
     €237bn             €310bn

GDP Growth          Interest on Debt
     0.2%                   4%

DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM? You don't need a fucking degree to understand how it is IMPOSSIBLE for Greece to pay that back, and the solution? Give them €84bn more debt!

WHAT. THE. FUCK!

I'm losing my fucking mind, this is what it feels like to lose one's mind.

[Crown]

Well let's see, Greece was running a budget surplus if the debt interest payments are subtracted out. Default on all the debts and that money can now be put to use and invested into improving the nation. You don't need any drastic reforms, because the system, imperfect as it is was working well enough to keep Greece going were it not for the EU leeching off it.

And of course they came to their debt by accident, so the entire mess is completely not of their own making.

Remind me again how Germany came to their debt you little asshat?

[aerius]

You dumb shits knowingly made loans to a nation which you knew at the time had no means of repaying those loans, ever.
Cry me a fucking river.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I think it is funny that people keep blaming Germany, even though this current plan is what the Greek government offered, and 'worse' than what had been demanded two weeks ago. And the ones arguing for being stricter with Greece are primarily the Eastern EU members who feel being robbed - Germany is actually a moderating force in the negotiations.

Blaming Germany? Seriously, the problem is everyone forgets how the situation arose in the first place. Both French and German banks loaned Greece lots of cash for decades without doing their own due diligence. It is not as if no one knew Greece was fudging the numbers. People in the know knew this, yet the loans continued.

And then, your great governments decided to convert that private debt into public debt. Well done I say! Where's the moral hazard?

[His Divine Shadow]

You dumb shits knowingly made loans to a nation which you knew at the time had no means of repaying those loans, ever.
Cry me a fucking river.

Correctio. Are making.

[FTeik]

I wonder, if the belief/assumption by the creditors about Greece being able of paying back its debt stems partly from the idea, that if Greece successfully stamps out corruption and gets an efficient tax-collecting system it won't be plagued by this problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasi ... _in_Greece.

Even if those numbers are exaggerated and the greek state only manages to cash in 20% of the thirty billion lost every year paying the debt doesn't look so undoable anymore. Of course the numbers might be outdated and no longer apply to the current situation, but I think it is food for thought.

You dumb shits knowingly made loans to a nation which you knew at the time had no means of repaying those loans, ever.
Cry me a fucking river.

And the dumb shits from Greece TOOK them, so you'll forgive me, if I don't cry to many tears.

We won't find an agreement on that, but the enragement about the lack of a default (although the current agreement promises/dangles the prospect of a restructuring of the debt in the future) overshadows a discussion on the other parts of the loan-package. I'm not sure I agree on everything, but most seem to be long overdue.

[aerius]

I think it is funny that people keep blaming Germany, even though this current plan is what the Greek government offered, and 'worse' than what had been demanded two weeks ago. And the ones arguing for being stricter with Greece are primarily the Eastern EU members who feel being robbed - Germany is actually a moderating force in the negotiations.

Blaming Germany? Seriously, the problem is everyone forgets how the situation arose in the first place. Both French and German banks loaned Greece lots of cash for decades without doing their own due diligence. It is not as if no one knew Greece was fudging the numbers. People in the know knew this, yet the loans continued.

It's even worse. Not only did they know Greece was fudging the numbers, those banks were among the ones helping Greece to fudge the numbers in the first place! They played an active part in the fraud.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's even worse. Not only did they know Greece was fudging the numbers, those banks were among the ones helping Greece to fudge the numbers in the first place! They played an active part in the fraud.

Which makes all this moralizing and all this huffing and puffing by people really retarded. The real crooks got away, and as usual the sheep are left to pick up the pieces.

But everyone is so fucking obsessed with having "lost their taxes" when they forgot why they even lost their taxes in the first place. It is pathetic. It again shows how bankers round the world escaped relatively unscathed legally because of their fraudulent lending, abetted by their own governments!

[aerius]

I wonder, if the belief/assumption by the creditors about Greece being able of paying back its debt stems partly from the idea, that if Greece successfully stamps out corruption and gets an efficient tax-collecting system it won't be plagued by this problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasi ... _in_Greece.

Even if those numbers are exaggerated and the greek state only manages to cash in 20% of the thirty billion lost every year paying the debt doesn't look so undoable anymore. Of course the numbers might be outdated and no longer apply to the current situation, but I think it is food for thought.

Do you even read the links in the shit you post? That's rhetorical by the way.

From the source cited in your wikipedia link
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21 ... rt-no-more
Excerpt:

Costas Vaxevanis, its editor, is adamant that to publish the list was in the public interest. (Many hard-up, law abiding Greeks would agree.) He argues that reforms of taxation have not gone far enough, despite recent efforts by the conservative-led coalition government of Antonis Samaras to pursue 54,000 taxpayers who sent €22 billion ($28.5 billion) abroad in 2009-11. About 15,000 people transferred funds that were not declared to the tax authorities; the government now hopes to rake in an extra €2.25 billion in taxes.

Because $28.5 billion in fund transfers over 3 years, of which less than 8% is taxable somehow translates to $30 billion per year in tax evasion. How the fuck did you pass junior school math, or is the education system in your country that fucking bad? Seriously, I'm dealing with a bunch of morons who can't do basic arithmetic.

[FTeik]

I wonder, if the belief/assumption by the creditors about Greece being able of paying back its debt stems partly from the idea, that if Greece successfully stamps out corruption and gets an efficient tax-collecting system it won't be plagued by this problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasi ... _in_Greece.

Even if those numbers are exaggerated and the greek state only manages to cash in 20% of the thirty billion lost every year paying the debt doesn't look so undoable anymore. Of course the numbers might be outdated and no longer apply to the current situation, but I think it is food for thought.

Do you even read the links in the shit you post? That's rhetorical by the way.

From the source cited in your wikipedia link
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21 ... rt-no-more
Excerpt:

Costas Vaxevanis, its editor, is adamant that to publish the list was in the public interest. (Many hard-up, law abiding Greeks would agree.) He argues that reforms of taxation have not gone far enough, despite recent efforts by the conservative-led coalition government of Antonis Samaras to pursue 54,000 taxpayers who sent €22 billion ($28.5 billion) abroad in 2009-11. About 15,000 people transferred funds that were not declared to the tax authorities; the government now hopes to rake in an extra €2.25 billion in taxes.

Because $28.5 billion in fund transfers over 3 years, of which less than 8% is taxable somehow translates to $30 billion per year in tax evasion. How the fuck did you pass junior school math, or is the education system in your country that fucking bad? Seriously, I'm dealing with a bunch of morons who can't do basic arithmetic.

While you are an illiterate moron. From the wikipedia-article:

Tax evasion and corruption is a problem in Greece.[1][2] Tax evasion has been described by Greek politicians as "a national sport"—with up to €30 billion per year going uncollected.[3]

Your own article refers to €22 billion sent abroad by 54,000 people, not the whole amount of tax-evasion during that time.

And since you are linking to source-articles http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/s ... CMP=twt_gu , which contains quotes like:

They found that €28bn (£22.4bn) of tax was evaded in 2009 by self-employed people alone.

As GDP that year was €235bn and the total tax base was just €98bn, it is clear that this was a significant sum. At a tax rate of 40%, it amounted to almost half the country's budget deficit in 2008, and 31% in 2009.

So € 28bn in 2009 alone. I guess the other two years from your example were tax-evasion-free, because in Aerius-country tax-evasion is a one-time thing.

It concludes with:

However, broader attempts to crack down on the professions were blocked last year by the Greek parliament. MPs voted against a bill mandating tax audits on people who had incomes below a minimum threshold. The bill targeted 11 professions, including vets, architects, engineers, economists, doctors, lawyers and accountants.

The authors found, almost as an aside to their central examination of tax evasion, that the occupations represented in parliament "are very much those that evade tax, even beyond lawyers".

They said: "Half of non-lawyer parliamentarians are in the top three tax-evading industries, and nearly a super-majority in the top four evading industries."

[aerius]

Let's see what the actual paper says
http://www.chicagobooth.edu/blogs/infor ... vasion.pdf

From the conclusion:

Harberger (2006) introduces the idea that the private sector adapts to norms of tax evasion.
We borrow that idea, show that banks adapt their lending to semiformal income, and develop a
new methodology to estimate tax evasion. Using individual-level household lending data across
four credit products, we estimate that 28 billion euros in self-employed income goes untaxed in
Greece for 2009, accounting for 31 percent of the deficit for 2009 or 48% for 2010

So we're both wrong.

But my point remains, even if those lost tax revenues could be collected in full, they still wouldn't close the deficit and allow Greece to repay its loans. The result is still the same. Congratulations, you've rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic, but you're still going to hit the fucking iceberg. It changes nothing.

[Simon_Jester]

Well let's see, Greece was running a budget surplus if the debt interest payments are subtracted out. Default on all the debts and that money can now be put to use and invested into improving the nation. You don't need any drastic reforms, because the system, imperfect as it is was working well enough to keep Greece going were it not for the EU leeching off it.

And of course they came to their debt by accident, so the entire mess is completely not of their own making.

How is that even a response to what aerius said?

I mean, aerius is all "numbers numbers numbers, debt unpayable, Greek budget already balanced except for futile attempt to pay unpayable debt! Numbers numbers numbers!"

And you're like "GREEKS ARE LAZY AND IMMORAL. PUNISH THEM."

Are you even replying to our aerius, or to some bizarro parallel universe of him?

And putting the money saved through a default to use and investing into improving the nation seems delusional, considering the state Greece has been and is currently in.

At least the Greeks wouldn't need to borrow even more money (that will never be paid back) to make the interest payments on the existing money (that will never be paid back).

Which is just an absurd cycle that serves only to increase the number of euros the Greeks have to tax from their own people and hand over to foreigners every year... and again, that just doesn't make any sense unless the real goal is "plunder Greece."

BTW, there is the prospect for a restructure of the debt at the later date, if the creditors can see, that the Greeks honour the agreement this time.

And when- not if, when- the Greeks run into obstacles of any kind in "honoring" the agreement on schedule, the debt restructuring will instantly be retracted

Because, assuming the European creditors aren't morons, the only rational explanation left is that this is all an elaborate structure intended to provide a legal cover for stripping Greek assets. The European creditor nations have every reason to plunder Greece rather than forgiving its debts, even if that would be vastly worse for Greece.

I see no reason to assume that as long as Greece continues to play along, the European creditor-nations will stop traveling down the road that ends in plundering Greece.

And this was arguably predictable years ago when the European nations took upon themselves the debts previously owed to private banks. Because while the private banks' power to threaten Greece and force it to allow them to plunder it were limited, nations like France and Germany have nigh-unlimited power to do so so long as Greece remains in the Eurozone.

Of course they can still back out of the negotiations, default and leave the Euro-zone, but I wonder, if there would still be people cheering them on six months later, if they do that.

I, for one, would at least be sympathetic with them, because it's sure looking to me like that would be the right move at the moment. The alternatives being offered to them are unrealistic.

I wonder, if the belief/assumption by the creditors about Greece being able of paying back its debt stems partly from the idea, that if Greece successfully stamps out corruption and gets an efficient tax-collecting system it won't be plagued by this problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasi ... _in_Greece.

Even if those numbers are exaggerated and the greek state only manages to cash in 20% of the thirty billion lost every year paying the debt doesn't look so undoable anymore. Of course the numbers might be outdated and no longer apply to the current situation, but I think it is food for thought.

Except that then (given those numbers you just used) there's going to be at least six billion more euros leaving the Greek economy and not coming back, every year. How sustainable is that?

The Greek tax receipts are not free money that can be given to foreigners without consequences for Greece. Normally, when a nation receives money in taxes, it spends most of that money within its own borders- it remains in circulation. But Greece cannot do that because the vast majority of its very large national debt is owed to foreigners.

The only way that attempting to pay the interest on this debt can end is with the Greeks using up all their liquid assets and being forced to sell off whatever non-liquid assets they have to foreigners in order to procure more euros to meet their interest payments.

And it doesn't matter whether the Greeks evade taxes or not, for those purposes- the long term effect of the country losing six billion euros a year in interest is the same. The only difference is that if Greece beats its tax evasion problem, when they open a vein and let all the blood run out, they'll be doing it with a sharper knife.

You dumb shits knowingly made loans to a nation which you knew at the time had no means of repaying those loans, ever.
Cry me a fucking river.

And the dumb shits from Greece TOOK them, so you'll forgive me, if I don't cry to many tears.

Thing is, aerius isn't asking you to cry. He's asking you to do basic arithmetic and recognize that the Greek economy cannot support interest payments of seven or eight billion euros a year without crippling consequences... and that this is the level of interest payment they're being expected to make just to stay afloat, let alone to ever repay the debt and escape it.

[His Divine Shadow]

It's even worse. Not only did they know Greece was fudging the numbers, those banks were among the ones helping Greece to fudge the numbers in the first place! They played an active part in the fraud.

Which makes all this moralizing and all this huffing and puffing by people really retarded. The real crooks got away, and as usual the sheep are left to pick up the pieces.

But everyone is so fucking obsessed with having "lost their taxes" when they forgot why they even lost their taxes in the first place. It is pathetic. It again shows how bankers round the world escaped relatively unscathed legally because of their fraudulent lending, abetted by their own governments!

A banker will have made it around the world (in his private jet funded by bailout money) while the worker is still putting his shoes on. And then due to lax regulatory building practices the banker helped lobby for, the building collapsed and killed the worker.

[salm]

Can somebody shed some light into who these people are who are accusing the Greeks of beeing lazy?
I don´t know anybody who does that and only read about it in news articles when some individual Greek is cited claiming that "everybody" is accusing them of being lazy.
People and newspapers often complain about the Greek pension system, corruption and the lack of several governmental institutions and things like that but I rarely see anybody accusing individual Greeks or the Greeks as a whole of being lazy.

Generalizing "everybody else" as a counter measure to being (percieved as) the victim of generalization seems rather silly.

[Simon_Jester]

"Greeks are lazy" is a convenient shorthand for "Greeks expect excessive entitlements from their welfare responsibilities," "Greeks shirk their responsibilities like paying taxes," "Greeks are lax in honoring obligations like enacting meaningful anti-corruption laws," and so on. All of which ARE things the Greeks are commonly criticized for, including in this thread.

So 'lazy' becomes a shorthand for all the various ways in which the Greeks are accused of bad practices, with the (frequent) implication that the problem is a lack of some virtue on the part of the Greeks.

Now, my main issue with calling the Greeks 'lazy' is that even if it is true, it doesn't solve anything. And if we start punishing countries for their citizens having vices like 'lazy,' and if the punishment is to have your assets stripped and be thrown into an economic pit...

That's not a world order decent people would want to live under, I think.

[salm]

So who are the people shorthanding all that stuff to lazy? As mentioned above I rarely see anybody do this besides either Greeks cited in newspapers or Greece friendly articles by non Greeks.
I agree that it would be counter productive to call people lazy because lazy implies a negative character trait (imo it´s good trait but that´s besides the point). So how would one critisize the pension system for example without some Greeks feeling personally insulted?

[Thanas]

The KFW is the official state development bank of Germany. Of course the German Finance Minister is the chairman of this wholly state-owned bank. Look up the British Business Bank for a comparison, you idiot.

So why not be upfront and be honest with 'give me all your shit' rather than 'deposit all your shit in tax haven Luxembourg under a shell organisation which I totally own'? Do one prat.

If "all the profits will either serve the debt of Greece or be invested into the Greek econmy as stimuli" is "give me all your shit", then you must be a very small mind indeed.

Well a majority would happen to be European voters; do you live inside your bubble?

And these European voters can make their votes count in elections. Screaming how an offer made by democratically elected governments to another democratically elected government is a coup does not make you look rational, it just makes you look like a child who whines and screams because they didn't get their way.

"Greeks are lazy" is a convenient shorthand for "Greeks expect excessive entitlements from their welfare responsibilities," "Greeks shirk their responsibilities like paying taxes," "Greeks are lax in honoring obligations like enacting meaningful anti-corruption laws," and so on. All of which ARE things the Greeks are commonly criticized for, including in this thread.

So 'lazy' becomes a shorthand for all the various ways in which the Greeks are accused of bad practices, with the (frequent) implication that the problem is a lack of some virtue on the part of the Greeks.

Bullshit, Simon. You take valid criticisms like "Greeks shirk their responsibilities like paying taxes" - which nobody has ever disputed - and then try to twist them into some un-PC-expression. That is not the level of discourse around here and you should know better. Have some intellectual honesty.

BTW, there is the prospect for a restructure of the debt at the later date, if the creditors can see, that the Greeks honour the agreement this time.

And when- not if, when- the Greeks run into obstacles of any kind in "honoring" the agreement on schedule, the debt restructuring will instantly be retracted

Bullshit. It will be slowed down until the obstacles are fixed. You can't just retract something that has already gone through.

Because, assuming the European creditors aren't morons, the only rational explanation left is that this is all an elaborate structure intended to provide a legal cover for stripping Greek assets. The European creditor nations have every reason to plunder Greece rather than forgiving its debts, even if that would be vastly worse for Greece.

Why would anybody want to plunder Greece? Tell me that. To what end? And how is this worth the damage to the European product? I mean, are you so delusional to think that Greece, with their 2% of the Eurozone economy, is a worthwhile target to plunder? Do you really think that this is worth spending all the time and effort and to throw over half a trillion of Euros into it? If that is supposed to be plunder, then I am getting a very bad return.

Thing is, aerius isn't asking you to cry. He's asking you to do basic arithmetic and recognize that the Greek economy cannot support interest payments of seven or eight billion euros a year without crippling consequences... and that this is the level of interest payment they're being expected to make just to stay afloat, let alone to ever repay the debt and escape it.

It is not. FFS, it is almost like nobody ever reads the issues. Nobody who is whining about unsustainable debt has presumably read about the fact that the whole debt would be restructured under the QE program, thus turning it effectively into giant subsidies with any interest payyments being returned to Greece (and the creditors thus losing yearly money due to inflation).

[Thanas]

What the EuroTards don't realise is that in countries like Australia, America and Canada people don't give a shit that there are constant fiscal transfers to the weaker states like Mississippi without any promises of repayment. For the most part, we love our countries and think nothing of it. The idea of completely humiliating and impoverishing a member state for years or decades on end is completely repellent and would never be seriously considered. For this reason, the Euro and the EU's response to Greece is a complete inditement on what a failure the whole economic zone is.

Guess what? The Eurozone is not a single country. If it were a political union with every vote being counted equally, with common rules, a common Government and a common parliament with true legislative powers then it would have transfers as well. But the political union was explicitly rejected by the voters of Ireland and France (despite Germany being for it). You can't compare the EU with another country if it is not a country, just a collection of states.

I think it is funny that people keep blaming Germany, even though this current plan is what the Greek government offered, and 'worse' than what had been demanded two weeks ago. And the ones arguing for being stricter with Greece are primarily the Eastern EU members who feel being robbed - Germany is actually a moderating force in the negotiations.

The fuck? Germany is the pack leader, and worse it's a country that 'claims' to know what it is doing and yet has repeatedly, consistently insists on goals that cannot be met and when they aren't they old 'they didn't try hard enough meme' gets trotted out.

Let me help you;

Code: Select all

Greek Economy        Greek Debt
     €237bn             €310bn

GDP Growth          Interest on Debt
     0.2%                   4%

DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM? You don't need a fucking degree to understand how it is IMPOSSIBLE for Greece to pay that back, and the solution? Give them €84bn more debt!

WHAT. THE. FUCK!

I'm losing my fucking mind, this is what it feels like to lose one's mind.

You can't lose what you never had in the first place.

The interest on Greek debt is not 4% of GDP either. It is 2.1% as has been pointed out before and will be even less in the future.

There was never any agenda other than complete and utter subjugation of Greece by the Europgroup irrespective of Tsipras or Varoufakis or SYRIZA's behaviour. To say otherwise is to basically admit that the current 'bailout' is more punitive than necessary just out of sheer spite.

Subjugate that insignificant little nation? For what purpose? For what gain? Strategic Gyros purposes?

Also, nice to know that subjugation translates into "half a trillion Euros".

[BabelHuber]

Jesus fucking christ, you're the type of dumb cunt who would be blaming Cassandra for Troy's destruction and not Paris if you think Varoufakis was the 'problem' in this!

Have you even followed the news in February, fucktard?

When Varoufakis met the other European finance ministers, he did alienate them by lecturing them about their 'wrong' policy in the past (that's how you create goodwill - by pointing out the other is completely wrong anyways at your first meeting!).

Also, politicians from Syriza back then pointed out that:

- They don't feel bound to the old bailout contracts, since they were signed by the predecessor government
- Europe has to pay for Greece anyways, since subsidizing Greece is cheaper than the effects of a GREXIT
- Germany's behaviour in the Greek crisis is comparable to Nazi crimes (which is almost a crime in itself IMO, because it trivializes the Nazi crimes)

Guess what? The other finance ministers thought that:

- Varoufakis is nuts when he thinks he can talk to them like he talks to his students
- Contracts have to be kept
- The Euro can very well work without Greece

The effects you can see now.

If Varoufakis and Tsipras simply had tried to negotiate a better deal based on the contracts which were still valid back then, they could have reached something. By alienating their partners, they did not.

I cannot believe that this is hard to understand, really! After all, politicians are only humans, too. They are no super-beings devoid of emotions! If you insult them personally, it affects theit actions, doh!

[Grumman]

"Greeks are lazy" is a convenient shorthand for "Greeks expect excessive entitlements from their welfare responsibilities," "Greeks shirk their responsibilities like paying taxes," "Greeks are lax in honoring obligations like enacting meaningful anti-corruption laws," and so on. All of which ARE things the Greeks are commonly criticized for, including in this thread.

So 'lazy' becomes a shorthand for all the various ways in which the Greeks are accused of bad practices, with the (frequent) implication that the problem is a lack of some virtue on the part of the Greeks.

Now, my main issue with calling the Greeks 'lazy' is that even if it is true, it doesn't solve anything. And if we start punishing countries for their citizens having vices like 'lazy,' and if the punishment is to have your assets stripped and be thrown into an economic pit...

That's not a world order decent people would want to live under, I think.

But it is. When somebody is "lazy" (read: refuses to pay their taxes), we do throw them into a pit. We call it "prison", and we do it because refusing to pay your taxes is a crime. And in 2006, 40% of all Greek companies were committing this crime. Public servants were corrupt to the point of inventing entire fictional organisations to funnel money into their own pockets. If it is necessary to forgive Greece's debts, fine. But it should come after Greece has stopped being such a den of scum and villainy, not before.

[BabelHuber]

Which makes all this moralizing and all this huffing and puffing by people really retarded. The real crooks got away, and as usual the sheep are left to pick up the pieces.

But everyone is so fucking obsessed with having "lost their taxes" when they forgot why they even lost their taxes in the first place. It is pathetic. It again shows how bankers round the world escaped relatively unscathed legally because of their fraudulent lending, abetted by their own governments!

It's not like the German and French government ordered their banks to loan money to Greece. The reality rather is like this:

The banks knew full well that Greece won't be able to pay back the money, and the banks also knew that according to the Maastricht contracts, no country would be bailed out.

But the banks also knew that the Maastricht contracts were just some sheets of paper - if Greece would not be able to pay its bills, the other EU countries had to step in to prevent financial turmoils.

And the Greek government back then thought the same. So Greece happily borrowed, the banks happily loaned, and both thought that the European tax payer must pay the bill at the end anyways.

But this is not how it went - first of all the private investors had to take a 50% haircut (I think that a 100% haircut would have been better, but that's not how it went).

Secondly, Greece had to commit itself to reforms to get any further money in the first place.

So the Greek governments back then were betraying their country and the European Union as a whole: They must have known that Greece would be unable to pay back the loans. But somehow they seem to have thought that the rest of Europe will solve the problem for them - or they did not think at all.

Now Greece has to pay for this. And yes, if we would live in a fair world the banks involved would have gone bankrupt. But live's a bitch, deal with it.