Protest in Hong Kong

[Thanas]

You mean, besides the issues that matter like sovereignty and who gets to call the shots?

Separate legal systems, separate passports, separate currency and language, separate international agreements, etc. If Beijing was straight up calling the shots these protests would have ended a long time ago.

None of that really matters to the issue here - the people wanted to get what was supposed to be theirs. Beijing refused, riots followed. Everything you listed right there is immaterial to the matter here.

[K. A. Pital]

Hong Kong is not separate, it is not a separate country and by 2047 (a relatively close time by Chinese standards) the internal border will be done away with.

[Ralin]

None of that really matters to the issue here - the people wanted to get what was supposed to be theirs. Beijing refused, riots followed. Everything you listed right there is immaterial to the matter here.

Beijing refused, the Hong Kong government compiled and people rioted. Doesn't change the fact that they are different societies with very different systems and that no, 'repressions' will not follow.

Hong Kong is not separate, it is not a separate country

It is very much separate and in most ways that matter it is a separate country. It takes separate visas and permits to go from one to the other, even for Chinese citizens. You know that.

and by 2047 (a relatively close time by Chinese standards) the internal border will be done away with.

Supposedly. Who knows how it will work out?

[mr friendly guy]

Hong Kong isn't separate. It however has such a high degree of autonomy that Beijing is willing to allow the HK government to call the shots in this case rather than directly intervening. As such the HK government isn't exactly taking a leaf out of Beijing's handbook nor necessarily asking China how high to jump when Beijing says jump.

Edit- all that is however a side argument to the point of dispute. Whether HK government or the PRC is responsible for a particular action. If its on the mainland its the PRC government, if its on HK, its done by the HK government.

[Thanas]

An update: It is now 12 weeks that journalists have been held without trial in China. Link.

The piece is good enough to completely destroy this notion expressed by the propagandists that China is a nation of laws.

Excerpts:

During my four years as a correspondent, I’ve often had to write about justice and injustice in China. I’ve attended press conferences at which government officials have told us that China is a country based on the rule of law, or what’s known in specialist circles as a Rechtsstaat. I’ve spoken to farmers who’ve been expropriated, who’ve tried to seek redress but failed, and instead been beaten and carted off to a black jail for supposedly fomenting unrest. I’ve interviewed civil rights activists who’ve sought, with infinite tenacity, to make China into what it pretends to be: a country based on the rule of law. I’ve visited dissidents who’ve been threatened and then vanished one day. Flipping through my telephone book, I see the names of many who are simply gone. When I mentioned this to a Chinese acquaintance, he shrugged his shoulders. Those kind of things happened to dissidents, but not to normal people, he said. Still, after a series of unfortunate circumstances, even the most guileless person can run into trouble with the justice system and security apparatus. It’s like with cancer: Everyone thinks they won’t get it. It’s always other people who are put in prison.

[...]

The police catch them. They are slammed against the police vehicle. That’s all the driver was able to see. The police ordered him to drive away. Miao apparently succeeded in getting away, as she called another friend a few minutes later. The conversation is interrupted several times. "They want to arrest us!" she shouts. "They hit us!"

Then the line goes dead. Miao is no longer reachable. All traces of Miao have been lost.

In the following months, more and more people across China are arrested for supporting Occupy Central. According to information from civil rights activists, there are more than 200 of them.

[...]
I drive to Mr. Zhang’s police station. He escorts me to a windowless room. Two young colleagues are already sitting there: one Mr. Xu and a male clerk. They have notebooks in front of them. I take mine out and write down their identification numbers. "What’s that all about?" Zhang asks. "This is not an interview!" They speak Mandarin with me.

"I’d like to document this case," I say. "I read a lot about the development of the rule of law in China, and now I’m experiencing it in person. I hope to be able to write an upbeat story."

"Yes," Mr. Xu responds, "be upbeat. You’ll see that the Chinese constitutional state will give you every reason to do so."

They question me: How did I meet Miao? What did we do in Hong Kong? Who did we interview? Did I know about what had happened in Beijing? During the course of the interrogation, Miao goes from being a suspected agitator to a de facto one.

"Why do you always say ‘the agitator’?" I ask. "There hasn’t been any court ruling yet."

"I already said ‘alleged’!" Zhang barks at me. "Am I supposed to repeat that now every time or what? This here is a conversation among friends. But you’re not behaving that way. And enough with all that note-taking. This isn’t an interview!"

"Sorry," I say, "but the word ‘alleged’ is a very important word."

Now Zhang gets even more furious. "What’s that about?" he asks. "Who do you think you are, anyway? Are you really German? You’re very different from the other Germans!"

"Really?"

"They are honest."

"And I’m not?"

"No, you aren’t. You’re odd. Very odd. It has always been very pleasant with the other German journalists."

"That’s not what they’ve told me."

"With you, it’s not pleasant at all. If I were in your position, I’d pull myself together."

While Xu gradually assumes the good cop role in this conversation, Zhang morphs into the bad cop. When I mention that to the two, Zhang flips out. "You’ll be dealing with us more often," he says. "Such as when you apply for your visa for next year. There could be problems. Pull yourself together!"

"I’d like to know where Miao is," I respond. "According to China’s Criminal Procedure Law, the family must be informed within 48 hours of arrest. But we haven’t heard anything yet."

Mr. Xu smiles at me beamingly. "Her case has absolutely nothing to do with you," he says. "Don’t let it be a concern to you. Have faith in the rule of law in China. It is perfect."

[...]

One of the men writes down detailed personal information about us. He takes his time flipping through his notebook before shutting it with a grave expression.

"I could look to see whether she is there, but there are holidays," he says, before starting to turn away.

"But," I say, "according to Chinese regulations for criminal proceedings, you are obliged to notify us within 24 of the arrest. The 24 hours are up."

He eyes me with a bored expression before saying: "There are holidays."

[...]

The police officers outside the prison won’t speak with me anymore. They treat Miao’s family condescendingly. We go away. As we are sitting in the car, I am beside myself with rage.

"These guys…," I say.

Miao’s brother shrugs his shoulders. "They weren’t so bad," he says. "At least they didn’t scream at us like usual…"

[...]

Meanwhile, Miao’s lawyer, Zhou Shifeng, is working feverishly to get an appointment to meet with the detainee. The meeting isn’t approved, so Zhou keeps at it and files a complaint. Things will go on like this for months.

"How can that be?" I ask him.

"The law says that state security officials have to notify the family within 48 hours of the arrest," he says. "But then there is the passage ‘unless further investigation is required.’"

"So, does that mean that the police can always invoke an exception?" I ask.

"When lawmakers make laws, they do it for their own interests and not because they are concerned about those of the public."

"Do the security authorities have to announce that they are invoking an exception or get it authorized?"

"No," Zhou responds. In principle, he continues, the security apparatus can find an exception clause for every law. Citizens don’t have any legal entitlement to be protected vis-à-vis the state and its representatives.

On Wednesday, October 8, the family is served the formal detention order. It says that Miao is being held in Beijing’s First Detention Center, that she’s suspected of inciting a public disturbance. Law enforcement likes to use this criminal offence whenever they take aim at nonconformists. In the worst cases, it can be punished with up to 10 years in prison. We continue to hope that Miao will be released in a few days.

[....]He doesn’t want to chat about philosophy. He asks hard, terse questions. At the end of the interrogation, he insists that I sign a statement. It’s written in Chinese on four or five pages. I decline. He insists. This back and forth seems to last forever.

I slowly read through the document three or four times. Mr. Xu, the nice guy, comes back in. He generally comes in whenever the mood has hit rock bottom. He is Mr. Sunshine at the police station. Now he’s not wearing a uniform. He talks to me while I’m reading in an attempt to distract me.

I say to Guan, the police officer, that there will be reporting on Miao before Li Keqiang’s visit.

"That could have negative consequences," he says.

"What kind of negative consequences?"

"Negative consequences. Think it over."

The questioning has lasted four and a half hours. Exhausted, I step out of the room and into the hallway, where all the policemen are standing.

They laugh. They joke. All of a sudden, they are incredibly nice.

Mr. Li says he would like to invite me out for a private meal some time. "It’s so nice to chat with you," he says.

"To be honest, the questionings with you are enough for me," I respond.

"Nevertheless, we’d like to see you tomorrow. We would like to speak with you about the coverage," he says with a laugh.

Xu takes my hand again and adds: "We’re all old friends, aren’t we?"

[...]
We don’t hear anything about Miao for a long time despite countless attempts by the lawyer. In the course of his inquiries, he learns that she is no longer being held in the First Detention Center. We fear she’s ended up in a black prison. These illegal prisons are beyond the reach of the law. Security personnel can do whatever they like; inmates are often beaten up or sexually assaulted.

Several days later, we find out that Miao has been transferred to the prison in Tongzhou, a suburb of Beijing. The law forbids police officers and guards to abuse inmates. But they often avail themselves of certain cell mates who will mistreat other inmates in the knowledge or at the request of the guards.

On December 10, the lawyer is finally allowed to see Miao. He indicates that we can’t speak freely on the phone, but he does share with me that Miao is suffering both physically and psychologically. Her spirit is strong, he says, adding that security officers want to force her to sign a statement in which she declares that our ties have been severed.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Erm. That notion was destroyed heaven knows how long ago. Huffing and puffing changes what again?

[Tanasinn]

This thread alone is full of mealy-mouthed China apologists, so it rather needs to be said at every possible opportunity.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

This thread alone is full of mealy-mouthed China apologists, so it rather needs to be said at every possible opportunity.

I don't think any of us were under the illusion that Hong Kong would ever be democratic.

But then again, I do know that there are some people who love to huff and puff, so I am not against their pointless huffing and puffing. BUt by all means. Do you need a high horse to stand on too?

[Thanas]

This thread alone is full of mealy-mouthed China apologists, so it rather needs to be said at every possible opportunity.

I don't think any of us were under the illusion that Hong Kong would ever be democratic.

But then again, I do know that there are some people who love to huff and puff, so I am not against their pointless huffing and puffing. BUt by all means. Do you need a high horse to stand on too?

In this very thread you had people questioning the very idea that journalists would face repression.

[AniThyng]

This thread alone is full of mealy-mouthed China apologists, so it rather needs to be said at every possible opportunity.

I don't think any of us were under the illusion that Hong Kong would ever be democratic.

But then again, I do know that there are some people who love to huff and puff, so I am not against their pointless huffing and puffing. BUt by all means. Do you need a high horse to stand on too?

In this very thread you had people questioning the very idea that journalists would face repression.

Well they don't if they are good patriotic journalists and serve the interests of the people State and avoid being cheerleaders for Western values decadence.

[mr friendly guy]

In this very thread you had people questioning the very idea that journalists would face repression.

You mean Ralin? And he just said that wouldn't happen in Hong Kong. Pointing out it happens on the mainland just seems to be you two talking past each other.

[Thanas]

Update: After 9 months of illegally being held, the dictatoral Chinese Government decides to free the journalist in question. Link.

A Chinese journalist will be freed without charge following nine months in detention after she helped cover the Hong Kong democracy protests for a German publication, her lawyer has said.

Prosecutors in Beijing decided not to bring charges against Zhang Miao, who was a news assistant for Die Zeit, said lawyer Zhou Shifeng.

Zhou said Zhang was scheduled to be released on Thursday night after being detained in October on a disturbance charge.

Her detention highlights the precarious situation for Chinese nationals working for foreign media, as they often become targets of police harassment and intimidation.

Angela Köckritz, the Beijing correspondent for Die Zeit, left China after she also felt pressure from authorities following Zhang’s detention.

Zhou said he had argued to prosecutors that the evidence against his client was obtained through coercion and torture and should be considered illegal.

9 months without a single charge being filed.

[Ralin]

Administrative detention is legal in China. Though the article doesn't specify if that was used.

[Thanas]

Administrative detention is legal in China. Though the article doesn't specify if that was used.

So? Laws by dictators that give them power to squash their own people hold no value at all.

[Purple]

Am I the only one who finds this moral outrage thing worn out and frankly stupid? If the Chinese people were against such measures they would have started a revolution by now. The fact that they did not means that they have accepted these things as an acceptable tradeoff in exchange for what ever benefits their state provides to them. And frankly I do not see the big deal. I would happily accept such things as well if it meant a removal from the insane capitalist system we live in now. But that is beyond the point. Bottom line is that if they do not have a problem with it why should you?

[Thanas]

Am I the only one who finds this moral outrage thing worn out and frankly stupid? If the Chinese people were against such measures they would have started a revolution by now. The fact that they did not means that they have accepted these things as an acceptable tradeoff in exchange for what ever benefits their state provides to them. And frankly I do not see the big deal. I would happily accept such things as well if it meant a removal from the insane capitalist system we live in now. But that is beyond the point. Bottom line is that if they do not have a problem with it why should you?

Yes, let us just accept atrocities because the people who commit them enjoy popular support.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Yes, let us just accept atrocities because the people who commit them enjoy popular support.

Hey. That has always been the norm. Which is why we don't have people like George W Bush and Dick Cheney behind bars and many other things.

[Thanas]

Yes, let us just accept atrocities because the people who commit them enjoy popular support.

Hey. That has always been the norm. Which is why we don't have people like George W Bush and Dick Cheney behind bars and many other things.

They should be behind bars as well.

[K. A. Pital]

But they are not, are they? It seems popular support matters more than law.

[Thanas]

But they are not, are they? It seems popular support matters more than law.

Maybe that is true, but nonetheless it doesn't mean one should stop pointing out wrongs, like the idiot that is purple argued.

[Purple]

If something is popular than that means the people it is being inflicted on clearly do not mind it. If they did it would not be popular. So for us who stand on the sidelines to call it out as wrong is akin to standing beside someone enjoying a dish you think is disgusting and calling him out on it. "Oh you poor person. How can you possibly enjoy that thing that I find abhorrent. Clearly you are a victim." It's condescending behavior from someone who feels so entitled that they believe their moral and political standards to be the golden benchmark that all human behavior is judged against.

The only exception to this is if a government is just plain morally abhorrent and is murdering people left and right like the Khmer Rouge or Nazi Germany.

[Thanas]

If something is popular than that means the people it is being inflicted on clearly do not mind it. If they did it would not be popular. So for us who stand on the sidelines to call it out as wrong is akin to standing beside someone enjoying a dish you think is disgusting and calling him out on it. "Oh you poor person. How can you possibly enjoy that thing that I find abhorrent. Clearly you are a victim." It's condescending behavior from someone who feels so entitled that they believe their moral and political standards to be the golden benchmark that all human behavior is judged against.

Why don't you ask the people it is inflicted upon if they mind it. you infantile fascist.

[K. A. Pital]

I think there were Pew-made surveys that indicated a high level of support for the CPC - at least in the mainland. It is also something that changed in time, though, so no idea what the approval is now. In 2004 it was fairly low, at 44%, but shot up to 86% by 2008.

[Thanas]

I think there were Pew-made surveys that indicated a high level of support for the CPC - at least in the mainland. It is also something that changed in time, though, so no idea what the approval is now. In 2004 it was fairly low, at 44%, but shot up to 86% by 2008.

How many of those polled had been the victim of state oppression?

I mean, the Nazis were probably polling rather high in approval as well if you only polled Germans.

[Purple]

How many of those polled had been the victim of state oppression?

That's now how it works Thanas and you know it. After all if it did than the governments of many a western democratic nation would be deemed invalid because they are not approved off by those citizens who are very poor or otherwise feel oppressed. What matters is majority population support like with any other government. And here it clearly exists. The Chinese it seems have chosen to allow the odd journalist to be wrongfully detained as an acceptable tradeoff to what they gain from their government just the same as you and I have chosen to allow the odd beggar to go hungry and the odd person to lose his pension because of the stock market.