raq's antiquities minister says the Baghdad National Museum has gotten back nearly 500 artifacts recovered by U.S. Army commandos during a recent raid in Syria targeting the Islamic State group.
Minister Adel Fahad Sharshab pledged that authorities will recover all missing artifacts. He spoke Wednesday as the recovered pieces were on display.
Many of the artifacts were stolen during the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq when the Baghdad museum was looted. They eventually fell into the hands of IS extremists and were smuggled out of Iraq into Syria but the timing and details of that remain unknown.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
That's just stupid. It's like leaving your money on a park bench for people to steal, raiding the thief and than placing the money back on the same bench. These artifacts need to be evacuated to civilized countries where they will be safe.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
You do realize that's how the Elgin Marbles and the whole flap over them happened, right?
But honestly it *is* a difficult question. Do you leave these antiquities in a danger zone where the odds that they will be destroyed are higher... but it's their 'home', or do you remove them to another country without the proper permissions being given and the approval of the people who inherited them as part of their cultural heritage?
Purple wrote:That's just stupid. It's like leaving your money on a park bench for people to steal, raiding the thief and than placing the money back on the same bench. These artifacts need to be evacuated to civilized countries where they will be safe.
Purple, valiant defender of state authoritarianism and colonialism.
Elheru Aran wrote:But honestly it *is* a difficult question. Do you leave these antiquities in a danger zone where the odds that they will be destroyed are higher... but it's their 'home', or do you remove them to another country without the proper permissions being given and the approval of the people who inherited them as part of their cultural heritage?
Legally, you have to hand them back.
And morally it would be pretty bad if artefacts that only got stolen because of the USA in the first place are now stolen by the USA.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
The moral problems are granted. But should ISIS take Baghdad (unlikely, granted), those artifacts are now even more likely to get smashed now because of the publicity. Is it better to commit an illegal act by temporarily removing them from the country and returning them later, or to leave them where they may get destroyed anyway?
I'm pleasantly surprised the US army actually did something like this.
Donny George (RIP) would be ecstatic. He was an amazing man - I met him a little bit after the 2003 invasion. The looting that occurred then was utterly catastrophic, and this man was truly heartbroken.
Elheru Aran wrote:The moral problems are granted. But should ISIS take Baghdad (unlikely, granted), those artifacts are now even more likely to get smashed now because of the publicity. Is it better to commit an illegal act by temporarily removing them from the country and returning them later, or to leave them where they may get destroyed anyway?
In the long run, they are better off in the west so they can be properly studied, analysed and kept safe.
But then again, the days when we could just colonize people and steal their culture are over. The problem is that "removing them temporarily" will most likely turn out to be a permanent removal, as the middle east is unlikely to get to western stability levels anytime soon.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------ My LPs
Thanas wrote:Purple, valiant defender of state authoritarianism and colonialism.
Not really. I'd be more than happy to see them returned AFTER the whole war thing is done and the country is rebuilt as a stable civilized place. Possibly after western archeologists could take stock and make copies and stuff to preserve. Just not now. Those artifacts already lasted several thousand years. It'd be a shame to lose them because people could not wait a fraction of that time for things to stabilize.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Thanas wrote:Purple, valiant defender of state authoritarianism and colonialism.
Not really. I'd be more than happy to see them returned AFTER the whole war thing is done and the country is rebuilt as a stable civilized place.
Given the history of the Middle East, I'm not sure it has ever met modern definitions of "stable".
"Temporary" removal for safety reasons has a habit of becoming permanent, regardless of the stability of the origin country. Possession being 9/10's of the law and everything.....
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.Leonard Nimoy.
Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Broomstick wrote:Given the history of the Middle East, I'm not sure it has ever met modern definitions of "stable".
Well sure, there will always be some sort of evil horde rampaging down there. But at least we can hold on to these things until we get one that does not hate monuments.
"Temporary" removal for safety reasons has a habit of becoming permanent, regardless of the stability of the origin country. Possession being 9/10's of the law and everything.....
I do not share your pessimism. But assuming you were right, we would have to ask our self the serious question if preserving these things for the future of man kind is really less important than keeping them where they came from. At the very least we can take them to the civilized world, make copies and document them and than return them. I mean, how hard can it be to make a plaster cast of a statue so that at least it's not 100% lost?
Last edited by Purple on 2015-07-15 07:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
Since we have quite a few guys fighting in Iraq already, I wonder if we couldn't work out a deal with the Iraqis to station a squad of marines at the entrance to every Iraq museum as security.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Since we have quite a few guys fighting in Iraq already, I wonder if we couldn't work out a deal with the Iraqis to station a squad of marines at the entrance to every Iraq museum as security.
What is a squad going to do if the location is hit by ISIS? To properly secure something like that requires far more resources and would ultimately require another full scale American invasion in Iraq.
Why not just convince the Iraq museum to "tour" the collection around the world for the foreseeable future? It gets it out of danger of being destroyed, let's archeologists and other scientists study the artifacts, and gives people the opportunity to see these historic pieces.
InsaneTD wrote:Why not just convince the Iraq museum to "tour" the collection around the world for the foreseeable future? It gets it out of danger of being destroyed, let's archeologists and other scientists study the artifacts, and gives people the opportunity to see these historic pieces.
Same problem as being temporarily removed for safety, I reckon
A thought: the artifacts are part of history and do not belong solely to whichever country they were found in. They belong to Humanity as a whole and to everyone, just as the study of a place's history should not be limited to merely the people living there.
This is the frame of reference the status of the artifacts should be considered. This does not legitimize stealing the artifacts from home countries, but this is what the Iraqi people responsible for them should consider. In the case of Hungary, artifacts (the Hungarian Crown and accessories) were sent to the US during troubled times and returned once the country was safe for them. There is no sense in taking great efforts to regain lost artifacts only to lose them in a predictable fashion.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
Zixinus wrote:A thought: the artifacts are part of history and do not belong solely to whichever country they were found in. They belong to Humanity as a whole and to everyone, just as the study of a place's history should not be limited to merely the people living there.
This is the frame of reference the status of the artifacts should be considered. This does not legitimize stealing the artifacts from home countries, but this is what the Iraqi people responsible for them should consider. In the case of Hungary, artifacts (the Hungarian Crown and accessories) were sent to the US during troubled times and returned once the country was safe for them. There is no sense in taking great efforts to regain lost artifacts only to lose them in a predictable fashion.
Then the Iraqi's should ask for someone they trust to hold on to them, if they feel that they cannot preserve these items for posterity. If U.S forces just nab items and then feel they have some right to dictate who should hold on to them, they're just being imperialistic pigs for all points and purposes, even if their intentions would be noble. So points for the U.S for doing it right. That said, it's obvious the world community must do more to preserve historical items in conflict regions, not just in Iraq.
-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel
"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives
I would not be surprised that the people caretaking the artifacts would like to do just that but cannot ask it because it would be politically expensive, inconvenient or worse, going against the current propaganda.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
Don't museums loan each other various items or tour collections around the world already? Don't see why they couldn't do the same for now.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
Zixinus wrote:A thought: the artifacts are part of history and do not belong solely to whichever country they were found in. They belong to Humanity as a whole and to everyone, just as the study of a place's history should not be limited to merely the people living there.
This is the frame of reference the status of the artifacts should be considered. This does not legitimize stealing the artifacts from home countries, but this is what the Iraqi people responsible for them should consider. In the case of Hungary, artifacts (the Hungarian Crown and accessories) were sent to the US during troubled times and returned once the country was safe for them. There is no sense in taking great efforts to regain lost artifacts only to lose them in a predictable fashion.
Then the Iraqi's should ask for someone they trust to hold on to them, if they feel that they cannot preserve these items for posterity. If U.S forces just nab items and then feel they have some right to dictate who should hold on to them, they're just being imperialistic pigs for all points and purposes, even if their intentions would be noble. So points for the U.S for doing it right. That said, it's obvious the world community must do more to preserve historical items in conflict regions, not just in Iraq.
-Gunhead
A thought experiment then. Going with the idea that historical artifacts and sites don't just belong to whomever is currently squatting over that plot of land but should be preserved for the benefit of all mankind, both presently and in the future, to what extent should other nations and organizations go to in order to preserve that heritage? If whatever organization which holds authority over the area is actively trying to destroy these artifacts, would there be justification in withholding these artifacts regardless of international legitimate recognition of the group or borders? What if instead of actively seeking out these artifacts, the organization is simply indifferent or incapable of overseeing their protection. Is it better to let the artifacts be destroyed instead of going on a grand imperialist adventure to save them?
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
More to the point, how would you react to China or Iran making that argument about sites in your country? Because in practice it always seems to be Euro American countries who are in a position to make and act on that sort of sentiment
Elheru Aran wrote:The moral problems are granted. But should ISIS take Baghdad (unlikely, granted), those artifacts are now even more likely to get smashed now because of the publicity. Is it better to commit an illegal act by temporarily removing them from the country and returning them later, or to leave them where they may get destroyed anyway?
In the long run, they are better off in the west so they can be properly studied, analysed and kept safe.
But then again, the days when we could just colonize people and steal their culture are over. The problem is that "removing them temporarily" will most likely turn out to be a permanent removal, as the middle east is unlikely to get to western stability levels anytime soon.
What would you say to evacuating them to the Kurdish part of Iraq, since that part is far more civilized and stable than Baghdad?
