In my own words, why Mecha aren't better than tanks....

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-03-22 01:29pm

hmmph Battletech ranges are still compareatively puny to Meklton Zeta ranges.....even though a MZ hex is 50 meters across an average Tank gun ((10 points of damage )) has an approximate rane of short=9 hexes max=81 hexes.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-22 06:42pm

I will agree with your assessment, Skimmer. I purposely threw as many rules of the game out of the window as I could, adapting the RPG ranges and other material to make up for it.

For instance, in another portion of this work I've described the Gauss Rifle's round as a penetrator like our modern APFSDS. In fluff it's described as a melon-shaped or sphere-shaped ball of "nickel-ferrous" material.

I needed for BTech weaponry to actually be better than our's for this to work. It caused Phong, Marina, and Chris O'Farrell to laugh at me

, but it was a good trade off in the end.

Of course, all this means is that it'll take us a bit longer since we have to get our hands on their weapons, but then we'll kick the Clans' stupid asses back to Strana Mechty.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-03-22 07:36pm

Mecha for ground combat seems absurd that much is true, but what about mecha used for space combat. What is the official or unofficial HAB position on that? It would seem to me fighters arebetter for combat but maybe thereare motheruses for mecha in Zero G combat?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-22 08:07pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Mecha for ground combat seems absurd that much is true, but what about mecha used for space combat. What is the official or unofficial HAB position on that? It would seem to me fighters arebetter for combat but maybe thereare motheruses for mecha in Zero G combat?

What the fuck would be the point? Having arms or legs just adds large amounts of unnecessary mass.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-22 08:14pm

I'm casaully watching this thread. Please do not let this turn into another anti Mecha jihad. The story was fine, could use some more elaboration and description. Otherwise I have very little interest in the whole mecha universe. But the author is entitled to hear opinions on his work and elaborations.

Just a friendly word from your friendly neighborhood mod.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-03-22 08:32pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Mecha for ground combat seems absurd that much is true, but what about mecha used for space combat. What is the official or unofficial HAB position on that? It would seem to me fighters arebetter for combat but maybe thereare motheruses for mecha in Zero G combat?
What the fuck would be the point? Having arms or legs just adds large amounts of unnecessary mass.

It was a question posed after watching a little gundam, I would think a mecha would be incredibly versatile in its mission profile and could have nomilitary apps as well. Im not supporting any side in this case, just curious.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-22 08:50pm

Stravo wrote:I'm casaully watching this thread. Please do not let this turn into another anti Mecha jihad. The story was fine, could use some more elaboration and description. Otherwise I have very little interest in the whole mecha universe. But the author is entitled to hear opinions on his work and elaborations.

Just a friendly word from your friendly neighborhood mod.

Well, it's only an excerpt. The entire thing is online, although I'm going to have to put it on my Tripod site until RackNine gets it's fucking act together and gets my God damned URL working again.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-22 09:12pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
It was a question posed after watching a little gundam, I would think a mecha would be incredibly versatile in its mission profile and could have nomilitary apps as well. Im not supporting any side in this case, just curious.

Combined arms owns single jack of all trades units on ground combat. It was tired with "independent" tanks in the 1930's and 40's, look up the Soviet T-35 which had no less then five turrets. Mecha designs always end up using many different weapons in an attempt to do everything, when in reality you get far better effect firing different ammo through one tube with some artillery one the line. Mecha also present larger targets and are vastly less efficient in power requirements and the required percentage of mass for mere propulsion compared to tracks or wheels.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-22 09:23pm

What's so funny is that this thread has gotten more posts than the actual thread where I released the entire story as it is now....

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-22 09:30pm

Steve wrote:What's so funny is that this thread has gotten more posts than the actual thread where I released the entire story as it is now....

Fan fics which are released in single giant pieces get little response, few want to read that much at once. So while they might finish the story, it's hard to make much of a comment on it.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-03-23 12:02am

Sea Skimmer wrote: Combined arms owns single jack of all trades units on ground combat. It was tired with "independent" tanks in the 1930's and 40's, look up the Soviet T-35 which had no less then five turrets. Mecha designs always end up using many different weapons in an attempt to do everything, when in reality you get far better effect firing different ammo through one tube with some artillery one the line. Mecha also present larger targets and are vastly less efficient in power requirements and the required percentage of mass for mere propulsion compared to tracks or wheels.

I was speaking in terms of space combat, I know mecha are ridiculous for standard combat and i'd join the HAB if I wasn't such a Robotech fan, heh.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-03-23 06:33am

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote: Combined arms owns single jack of all trades units on ground combat. It was tired with "independent" tanks in the 1930's and 40's, look up the Soviet T-35 which had no less then five turrets. Mecha designs always end up using many different weapons in an attempt to do everything, when in reality you get far better effect firing different ammo through one tube with some artillery one the line. Mecha also present larger targets and are vastly less efficient in power requirements and the required percentage of mass for mere propulsion compared to tracks or wheels.
I was speaking in terms of space combat, I know mecha are ridiculous for standard combat and i'd join the HAB if I wasn't such a Robotech fan, heh.

Mechs are definitely not used for space combat in BattleTech, except in the context of carrying out assaults on ground sites on vacuum worlds or the like. The real rulers of space combat in BattleTech are aerospace fighters, armed military dropships and, where available, big FTL-capable warships. It's possible to produce a Land-Air Mech (LAM) that can convert from mech form to fighter form, but they're expensive, and the machinery needed to carry out the conversion process makes LAMs heavier and more fragile than equivalent dedicated fighters or mechs.

Simply fitting a dedicated space fighter with hardpoints for one or more robot arms to be installed if mission requirements dictate it would make more sense than using a mech with legs, head, arms and torso. Legs are a complete waste of mass and volume for a space combat platform, since they serve no useful purpose. Replacing the legs with maneuvering thrusters or an additional set of arms would be much more useful.

In a similar vein, the back of mecha torsos would logically not be as heavily armored as the torso fronts of those same machines. In ground combat, that is logical as the front should normally be facing the enemy. In space combat, facing the enemy like that means that the mech presents its enemies with the ideal spread-eagle target/sensor profile. Facing the target in the classic Superman prone flying position places the head section in the way of trouble and exposes the lightly armored back to fire from enemy flanking units. Should the weapons used by and against the mecha be powerful enough that the thickness of the armor does not matter, the question becomes one of: why bother with armor at all? In that case, an unarmored space fighter would again win out.

In effect, using mecha of any description in space combat would be roughly equivalent to strapping pontoons and an outboard motor to a main battle tank and calling it a destroyer.

On the other hand, the major justification for mecha in entertainment media -- and it is perfectly reasonable as justifications go -- is that the audiences think they're cool-looking and will pay good money to see them.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-23 12:37pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Steve wrote:What's so funny is that this thread has gotten more posts than the actual thread where I released the entire story as it is now....
Fan fics which are released in single giant pieces get little response, few want to read that much at once. So while they might finish the story, it's hard to make much of a comment on it.

So what, release it chapter by chapter at week intervals?

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-03-25 01:10pm

Portions of this thread have been HOSed. Any more flamage will be dealt with accordingly.

Steve, you have the floor.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-25 01:22pm

Thank you, Dalton.

I'll add that I posted the first portions of the actual story in a thread. Go ahead everyone, read. I'll post further excerpts in the coming weeks.

Posbi · Post by **Posbi** » 2003-03-25 04:06pm

Conventional anti-mech warfare in the "Scorched Earth" universe? *cough* Leo 3 *cough*

*looks at Steve*
Yeah, you knew I would come here, didn't you?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-25 07:26pm

Posbi wrote:Conventional anti-mech warfare in the "Scorched Earth" universe? *cough* Leo 3 *cough*

*looks at Steve*
Yeah, you knew I would come here, didn't you?

Bah. I gave him some ideas for an uber-M1 complete with an ARENA-varient, antimissile laser, Russian-style ERA, a 140mm railgun and some Inner Sphere-based improvements (yeah, unfeasable in real life, I know).

I also gave ideas for a 175mm and 155mm tank destroyers

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-25 10:23pm

phongn wrote:
Posbi wrote:Conventional anti-mech warfare in the "Scorched Earth" universe? *cough* Leo 3 *cough*

*looks at Steve*
Yeah, you knew I would come here, didn't you?
Bah. I gave him some ideas for an uber-M1 complete with an ARENA-varient, antimissile laser, Russian-style ERA, a 140mm railgun and some Inner Sphere-based improvements (yeah, unfeasable in real life, I know).

I also gave ideas for a 175mm and 155mm tank destroyers

Puny crap, America threw a 240mm howitzer on a SP chassis back in 1945 called the T.92. Just give the thing HEAT and HESH rounds

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-25 10:49pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote:
Posbi wrote:Conventional anti-mech warfare in the "Scorched Earth" universe? *cough* Leo 3 *cough*

*looks at Steve*
Yeah, you knew I would come here, didn't you?
Bah. I gave him some ideas for an uber-M1 complete with an ARENA-varient, antimissile laser, Russian-style ERA, a 140mm railgun and some Inner Sphere-based improvements (yeah, unfeasable in real life, I know).

I also gave ideas for a 175mm and 155mm tank destroyers
Puny crap, America threw a 240mm howitzer on a SP chassis back in 1945 called the T.92. Just give the thing HEAT and HESH rounds

*drools*

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-03-25 11:54pm

Steve wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote:
Bah. I gave him some ideas for an uber-M1 complete with an ARENA-varient, antimissile laser, Russian-style ERA, a 140mm railgun and some Inner Sphere-based improvements (yeah, unfeasable in real life, I know).

I also gave ideas for a 175mm and 155mm tank destroyers
Puny crap, America threw a 240mm howitzer on a SP chassis back in 1945 called the T.92. Just give the thing HEAT and HESH rounds
*drools*

Indeed.

And Phongn also forgot the layer of electric armor on top of the Heavy ER and Arena canisters. It would of couse be covered in a dazzler paint job to annoy infrared systems.

Course, all that would add about 10-15 tons to the tank, the suspension can handle it but its not going to get points from mobility compared to its competition anymore.

Being immune to anything less then a modified armored Styx with a millimeter bandwidth radar is always a good selling point however.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-26 12:07am

BTW, I'll say it again, I posted the opening to the story. New thread, or should I have put it in here?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-03-26 11:29pm

Your writing is great, Steve - But we all know, technology-wise, what terran army should have been fighting the Clanners!:

Post by **Steve** » 2003-03-26 11:33pm

I used that on Slack in a vs. debate. He didn't like it.

I still remember when you first posted that pic...

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-03-27 12:14am

Just as an aside, by my calculations using BattleTech and Heavy Gear (converting BT over through the fact that an Autocannon 2 from BT and a Light Autocannon from HG are the same caliber, and assuming equal damage), the AC/20, heaviest 'Mech carried weapon in the game, has an armor penetration capability of 676mm of steel. The typical Medium Laser can penetrate 169mm, and a Small Laser only 100mm. Don't even get me started on the rockets (I refuse to call them "missiles," since even a Katyusha was superior to a BattleTech LRM).

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-03-27 10:16am

Sea Skimmer wrote:And Phongn also forgot the layer of electric armor on top of the Heavy ER and Arena canisters. It would of couse be covered in a dazzler paint job to annoy infrared systems.

Ooh, I forgot about those.

Course, all that would add about 10-15 tons to the tank, the suspension can handle it but its not going to get points from mobility compared to its competition anymore.

I intended them as actually being able to survive combat with Steve's UberMechs, as opposed to being blown apart in single shots.

Being immune to anything less then a modified armored Styx with a millimeter bandwidth radar is always a good selling point however.

Styx? Bah, we'll just up the laser to a full THEL system